Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[tiderulz]

As long as we are back to saying that Harris was dumped to be replaced by someone they already had cap space for, I'm going to go back to ignoring the rest of the equally bad points.

i dont follow the cap as closely as other people, but I dont believe we could have signed Biyombo without the cap space that Harris held. I disagree with the return we got on Harris, but that ship has sailed. I think the return of Skiles preferred players and the revolt at the end of the year helped Skiles move on.

[HartfordWhalers]

As long as we are back to saying that Harris was dumped to be replaced by someone they already had cap space for, I'm going to go back to ignoring the rest of the equally bad points.

i dont follow the cap as closely as other people, but I dont believe we could have signed Biyombo without the cap space that Harris held. I disagree with the return we got on Harris, but that ship has sailed. I think the return of Skiles preferred players and the revolt at the end of the year helped Skiles move on.

The full math is in the muck of this thread, but they could have. It however, might have meant that you couldn't have Jeff Green as a Harris replacement sf/pf tweener, or had Green as well, but not added Meeks with his broken foot and Augustin. However, if Biyombo was Orlando's first priority -- as has been claimed with quotes from the team -- they easily could have signed him and done a significant chunk of what they did elsewhere as well.

[wise1-2]

As long as we are back to saying that Harris was dumped to be replaced by someone they already had cap space for, I'm going to go back to ignoring the rest of the equally bad points.

i dont follow the cap as closely as other people, but I dont believe we could have signed Biyombo without the cap space that Harris held. I disagree with the return we got on Harris, but that ship has sailed. I think the return of Skiles preferred players and the revolt at the end of the year helped Skiles move on.

It doesn't even matter whether they had the cap space or not. As I explained multiple times in this thread, the Magic wanted cap space and flexibility in 2017. If they kept Harris and signed Biyombo they would lose that flexibility. They always wanted to be in position to make a big move in 2017 FA (see the quote from Alex Martins). They signed Biyombo to replace Harris, and signed Green for a one year deal to let the cap space carry over to next year while picking up a decent back up. The problem is Hartford has argued his point so much already, he won't admit he is wrong. Apparently having Harris and Biyombo taking up 35% of the cap to come off the bench and add to the front court logjam is a great idea! Lol.

[Kings2013]

As long as we are back to saying that Harris was dumped to be replaced by someone they already had cap space for, I'm going to go back to ignoring the rest of the equally bad points.

I thought he was dumped because he was a tweener, not stretching the floor in an ISo manner, duplicative or not a compliment to the existing roster

[wise1-2]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

Oladipo is suddenly a better player than Ibaka. The Magic got robbed on that trade, and an 11th round pick in a weak draft is very valuable and franchise altering.

Gordon can't do anything but play defense, and his best case scenario is serge ibaka, even thought their play styles are totally different.

The Magic will average 70 PPG because no one can score. even though the 10 win sixers averaged 98 PPG this past season. They're going to be much worse now that they lost the scoring champ victor oladipo.

The Magic dumped Harris only to replace him with Green. Not Biyombo. Not the guy on a long term deal. Nope. They replaced him with Green, the expiring contract. That was Robs plan all along. The FO saying they wanted cap space in 2017 means nothing. The fact that they can chase a prime FA next year also means nothing. Nothing at all.

Biyombo and Ibaka are going to be so bad together they wont be able to stay on the court at all.

When was this posted? I haven't seen it since I joined the discussion.

Its in this thread. Bondom said Oladipo is better than Ibaka. Slava said Gordon's best case is serge ibaka and he can't handle or pass the ball at all. Also seemed to be trolling this thread for no reason, even though its painfully obvious how little he's seen of the Magic. As a matter of fact, only one poster (illmatic) I argued with watched Magic games. The rest just like to pretend they know what they're talking about. Hartford wailers, Texas chuck and many others argued they replaced Harris with Green. A bunch of people said they would average 70 PPG.

[wise1-2]

Does "wise" mean "sarcastic" in a language I don't know?

Good lord, man, settle it down. Outsiders don't like the moves as much as insiders. How is this the least bit shocking? Keep the faith.

Yes, the language is Sabina. It's the language of the Tutu tribe in southeast Namibia.

I wish it was all sarcasm, but most of what I posted was actually said.

[Scoot McGroot]

As long as we are back to saying that Harris was dumped to be replaced by someone they already had cap space for, I'm going to go back to ignoring the rest of the equally bad points.

i dont follow the cap as closely as other people, but I dont believe we could have signed Biyombo without the cap space that Harris held. I disagree with the return we got on Harris, but that ship has sailed. I think the return of Skiles preferred players and the revolt at the end of the year helped Skiles move on.

It doesn't even matter whether they had the cap space or not. As I explained multiple times in this thread, the Magic wanted cap space and flexibility in 2017. If they kept Harris and signed Biyombo they would lose that flexibility. They always wanted to be in position to make a big move in 2017 FA (see the quote from Alex Martins). They signed Biyombo to replace Harris, and signed Green for a one year deal to let the cap space carry over to next year while picking up a decent back up. The problem is Hartford has argued his point so much already, he won't admit he is wrong. Apparently having Harris and Biyombo taking up 35% of the cap to come off the bench and add to the front court logjam is a great idea! Lol.

The Magic won't have cap flexibility in the summer of 2017 for a move, unless they plan on letting Ibaka walk for nothing. Otherwise, if you keep just the cap hold for Ibaka, and even if you decline Wilcox's rookie option (I'm assuming you'd keep Gordon, Hezonja, and Payton), you look to MAX out at around $8-10m in cap room. Now, renounce Ibaka, and you've got around $26-28m in cap room, but that's the ultimate max of cap space there.

[HartfordWhalers]

i dont follow the cap as closely as other people, but I dont believe we could have signed Biyombo without the cap space that Harris held. I disagree with the return we got on Harris, but that ship has sailed. I think the return of Skiles preferred players and the revolt at the end of the year helped Skiles move on.

It doesn't even matter whether they had the cap space or not. As I explained multiple times in this thread, the Magic wanted cap space and flexibility in 2017. If they kept Harris and signed Biyombo they would lose that flexibility. They always wanted to be in position to make a big move in 2017 FA (see the quote from Alex Martins). They signed Biyombo to replace Harris, and signed Green for a one year deal to let the cap space carry over to next year while picking up a decent back up. The problem is Hartford has argued his point so much already, he won't admit he is wrong. Apparently having Harris and Biyombo taking up 35% of the cap to come off the bench and add to the front court logjam is a great idea! Lol.

The Magic won't have cap flexibility in the summer of 2017 for a move, unless they plan on letting Ibaka walk for nothing. Otherwise, if you keep just the cap hold for Ibaka, and even if you decline Wilcox's rookie option (I'm assuming you'd keep Gordon, Hezonja, and Payton), you look to MAX out at around $8-10m in cap room. Now, renounce Ibaka, and you've got around $26-28m in cap room, but that's the ultimate max of cap space there.

Thats been explained a bunch. But apparently it just means we don't watch the team enough to understand. Funny thing, some guy actually claimed that in this thread.

[wise1-2]

i dont follow the cap as closely as other people, but I dont believe we could have signed Biyombo without the cap space that Harris held. I disagree with the return we got on Harris, but that ship has sailed. I think the return of Skiles preferred players and the revolt at the end of the year helped Skiles move on.

It doesn't even matter whether they had the cap space or not. As I explained multiple times in this thread, the Magic wanted cap space and flexibility in 2017. If they kept Harris and signed Biyombo they would lose that flexibility. They always wanted to be in position to make a big move in 2017 FA (see the quote from Alex Martins). They signed Biyombo to replace Harris, and signed Green for a one year deal to let the cap space carry over to next year while picking up a decent back up. The problem is Hartford has argued his point so much already, he won't admit he is wrong. Apparently having Harris and Biyombo taking up 35% of the cap to come off the bench and add to the front court logjam is a great idea! Lol.

The Magic won't have cap flexibility in the summer of 2017 for a move, unless they plan on letting Ibaka walk for nothing. Otherwise, if you keep just the cap hold for Ibaka, and even if you decline Wilcox's rookie option (I'm assuming you'd keep Gordon, Hezonja, and Payton), you look to MAX out at around $8-10m in cap room. Now, renounce Ibaka, and you've got around $26-28m in cap room, but that's the ultimate max of cap space there.

That's not true, they have like 20 mill in cap space with Ibaka's cap hold. If they jut dump Augustin, that's a max contract. If they trade Vucevic, they'd have even more. Check this article out. It says best case is 50 mill in cap space, worst case 20 mill.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-saturday-post-draft-2016-17-cap-projections/

[HartfordWhalers]

It doesn't even matter whether they had the cap space or not. As I explained multiple times in this thread, the Magic wanted cap space and flexibility in 2017. If they kept Harris and signed Biyombo they would lose that flexibility. They always wanted to be in position to make a big move in 2017 FA (see the quote from Alex Martins). They signed Biyombo to replace Harris, and signed Green for a one year deal to let the cap space carry over to next year while picking up a decent back up. The problem is Hartford has argued his point so much already, he won't admit he is wrong. Apparently having Harris and Biyombo taking up 35% of the cap to come off the bench and add to the front court logjam is a great idea! Lol.

The Magic won't have cap flexibility in the summer of 2017 for a move, unless they plan on letting Ibaka walk for nothing. Otherwise, if you keep just the cap hold for Ibaka, and even if you decline Wilcox's rookie option (I'm assuming you'd keep Gordon, Hezonja, and Payton), you look to MAX out at around $8-10m in cap room. Now, renounce Ibaka, and you've got around $26-28m in cap room, but that's the ultimate max of cap space there.

That's not true, they have like 20 mill in cap space with Ibaka's cap hold. If they jut dump Augustin, that's a max contract. If they trade Vucevic, they'd have even more. Check this article out. It says best case is 50 mill in cap space, worst case 20 mill.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-saturday-post-draft-2016-17-cap-projections/

Might want to check what offseason that is referencing...

[Scoot McGroot]

It doesn't even matter whether they had the cap space or not. As I explained multiple times in this thread, the Magic wanted cap space and flexibility in 2017. If they kept Harris and signed Biyombo they would lose that flexibility. They always wanted to be in position to make a big move in 2017 FA (see the quote from Alex Martins). They signed Biyombo to replace Harris, and signed Green for a one year deal to let the cap space carry over to next year while picking up a decent back up. The problem is Hartford has argued his point so much already, he won't admit he is wrong. Apparently having Harris and Biyombo taking up 35% of the cap to come off the bench and add to the front court logjam is a great idea! Lol.

The Magic won't have cap flexibility in the summer of 2017 for a move, unless they plan on letting Ibaka walk for nothing. Otherwise, if you keep just the cap hold for Ibaka, and even if you decline Wilcox's rookie option (I'm assuming you'd keep Gordon, Hezonja, and Payton), you look to MAX out at around $8-10m in cap room. Now, renounce Ibaka, and you've got around $26-28m in cap room, but that's the ultimate max of cap space there.

That's not true, they have like 20 mill in cap space with Ibaka's cap hold. If they jut dump Augustin, that's a max contract. If they trade Vucevic, they'd have even more. Check this article out. It says best case is 50 mill in cap space, worst case 20 mill.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-saturday-post-draft-2016-17-cap-projections/

Well, there's your problem, mate. That article was written on June 25. Free agency hadn't happened yet. So, subtract $17m for Bismack. Subtract $17m for Fournier. Subtract $7.25m for Augustin. And lastly, subtract $1m from that projection for Stephen Zimmerman (though this is non-guaranteed). So, now, your $50m top projection is down to a max projection of around $8m (as I said) with Ibaka's cap hold. And, subtract his cap hold, and you're around $26m (again, as I said).

You're just working with really old information that isn't accurate anymore.

Edit: Oh, and, as HW said, that's a 2016 offseason projection. You're talking about 2017 projection. But, again, $8-$26m depending on if you plan on keeping Ibaka, or even trying to keep Ibaka, rather.

[wise1-2]

The Magic won't have cap flexibility in the summer of 2017 for a move, unless they plan on letting Ibaka walk for nothing. Otherwise, if you keep just the cap hold for Ibaka, and even if you decline Wilcox's rookie option (I'm assuming you'd keep Gordon, Hezonja, and Payton), you look to MAX out at around $8-10m in cap room. Now, renounce Ibaka, and you've got around $26-28m in cap room, but that's the ultimate max of cap space there.

That's not true, they have like 20 mill in cap space with Ibaka's cap hold. If they jut dump Augustin, that's a max contract. If they trade Vucevic, they'd have even more. Check this article out. It says best case is 50 mill in cap space, worst case 20 mill.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-saturday-post-draft-2016-17-cap-projections/

Well, there's your problem, mate. That article was written on June 25. Free agency hadn't happened yet. So, subtract $17m for Bismack. Subtract $17m for Fournier. Subtract $7.25m for Augustin. And lastly, subtract $1m from that projection for Stephen Zimmerman (though this is non-guaranteed). So, now, your $50m top projection is down to a max projection of around $8m (as I said) with Ibaka's cap hold. And, subtract his cap hold, and you're around $26m (again, as I said).

You're just working with really old information that isn't accurate anymore.

Edit: Oh, and, as HW said, that's a 2016 offseason projection. You're talking about 2017 projection. But, again, $8-$26m depending on if you plan on keeping Ibaka, or even trying to keep Ibaka, rather.

Yeah my bad on the article, I was wondering where he got 50 mill from, but I was right about the 19 mill. Let's check the numbers...
17 mill for Fournier
17 mill biyombo
18 mill for serge
12 mill for vucevic
7 mill for Augustin
1 mill (guaranteed) for Watson
5 mill for Gordon
5 mill for Mario
3 mill for Payton
1 mill for Zimmerman

These are the contracts for next year and they add up to roughly 86 mill. The cap being at 108. 108-86= 22 mill.

[wise1-2]

It doesn't even matter whether they had the cap space or not. As I explained multiple times in this thread, the Magic wanted cap space and flexibility in 2017. If they kept Harris and signed Biyombo they would lose that flexibility. They always wanted to be in position to make a big move in 2017 FA (see the quote from Alex Martins). They signed Biyombo to replace Harris, and signed Green for a one year deal to let the cap space carry over to next year while picking up a decent back up. The problem is Hartford has argued his point so much already, he won't admit he is wrong. Apparently having Harris and Biyombo taking up 35% of the cap to come off the bench and add to the front court logjam is a great idea! Lol.

The Magic won't have cap flexibility in the summer of 2017 for a move, unless they plan on letting Ibaka walk for nothing. Otherwise, if you keep just the cap hold for Ibaka, and even if you decline Wilcox's rookie option (I'm assuming you'd keep Gordon, Hezonja, and Payton), you look to MAX out at around $8-10m in cap room. Now, renounce Ibaka, and you've got around $26-28m in cap room, but that's the ultimate max of cap space there.

Thats been explained a bunch. But apparently it just means we don't watch the team enough to understand. Funny thing, some guy actually claimed that in this thread.

Check the numbers again. They have ~20 mill in cap space, and will definitely make more moves if they sign a max contract. They already have one too many starters + a 5th pick coming off the bench. It will be impossible to add a max player and still find playing time for everyone.

[HartfordWhalers]

The Magic won't have cap flexibility in the summer of 2017 for a move, unless they plan on letting Ibaka walk for nothing. Otherwise, if you keep just the cap hold for Ibaka, and even if you decline Wilcox's rookie option (I'm assuming you'd keep Gordon, Hezonja, and Payton), you look to MAX out at around $8-10m in cap room. Now, renounce Ibaka, and you've got around $26-28m in cap room, but that's the ultimate max of cap space there.

Thats been explained a bunch. But apparently it just means we don't watch the team enough to understand. Funny thing, some guy actually claimed that in this thread.

Check the numbers again. They have ~20 mill in cap space, and will definitely make more moves if they sign a max contract. They already have one too many starters + a 5th pick coming off the bench. It will be impossible to add a max player and still find playing time for everyone.

They project with ~14m if they don't pick up Wilcox's option this fall and if they don't have any draft pick. If they have a pick around where they have been, it falls to ~12.5m again without Wilcox. (Scoot's numbers have Watson not cut which definitely could be the case, in which case lower everything by 4m).

The idea put forward that they will have max cap space doesn't match the reality that so far they are set up for less than half of it. But if they trade away 15m or so in long term salary, than they will.

[wise1-2]

Thats been explained a bunch. But apparently it just means we don't watch the team enough to understand. Funny thing, some guy actually claimed that in this thread.

Check the numbers again. They have ~20 mill in cap space, and will definitely make more moves if they sign a max contract. They already have one too many starters + a 5th pick coming off the bench. It will be impossible to add a max player and still find playing time for everyone.

They project with ~14m if they don't pick up Wilcox's option this fall and if they don't have any draft pick. If they have a pick around where they have been, it falls to ~12.5m again without Wilcox. (Scoot's numbers have Watson not cut which definitely could be the case, in which case lower everything by 4m).

The idea put forward that they will have max cap space doesn't match the reality that so far they are set up for less than half of it. But if they trade away 15m or so in long term salary, than they will.

Check the numbers again. I posted the guaranteed salary. I dont think you're taking into account that Watson's contract is only 1 mill guaranteed.

[HartfordWhalers]

Check the numbers again. They have ~20 mill in cap space, and will definitely make more moves if they sign a max contract. They already have one too many starters + a 5th pick coming off the bench. It will be impossible to add a max player and still find playing time for everyone.

They project with ~14m if they don't pick up Wilcox's option this fall and if they don't have any draft pick. If they have a pick around where they have been, it falls to ~12.5m again without Wilcox. (Scoot's numbers have Watson not cut which definitely could be the case, in which case lower everything by 4m).

The idea put forward that they will have max cap space doesn't match the reality that so far they are set up for less than half of it. But if they trade away 15m or so in long term salary, than they will.

Check the numbers again. I posted the guaranteed salary. I dont think you're taking into account that Watson's contract is only 1 mill guaranteed.

I am. I even explicitly stated that it would be 4m less room if he is not cut. I can bold it also? I will do that now.

The 10 players you listed have cap hits of $86,782,830 total with Watson cut, and then you only have 9 bodies of roster counts. So, you might want to account for the fact that you need incomplete roster charges. You might also want to account for a draft pick, or not. Given a cap of $102 million as expected, you will have a really hard time getting to ~20m as is.

[RexRyan]

Based on Henigan's past, I smell a Vucevic for Amir Johnson swap at the deadline. Good expiring deal for Orlando so they can replace Vucevic with another monster contract the same way they replaced Harris with Biyombo.

[wise1-2]

They project with ~14m if they don't pick up Wilcox's option this fall and if they don't have any draft pick. If they have a pick around where they have been, it falls to ~12.5m again without Wilcox. (Scoot's numbers have Watson not cut which definitely could be the case, in which case lower everything by 4m).

The idea put forward that they will have max cap space doesn't match the reality that so far they are set up for less than half of it. But if they trade away 15m or so in long term salary, than they will.

Check the numbers again. I posted the guaranteed salary. I dont think you're taking into account that Watson's contract is only 1 mill guaranteed.

I am. I even explicitly stated that it would be 4m less room if he is not cut. I can bold it also? I will do that now.

The 10 players you listed have cap hits of $86,782,830 total with Watson cut, and then you only have 9 bodies of roster counts. So, you might want to account for the fact that you need incomplete roster charges. You might also want to account for a draft pick, or not. Given a cap of $102 million as expected, you will have a really hard time getting to ~20m as is.

I'm a little busy multitasking. I didn't see that part about Watson, and I also thought the cap will be 108 mill? if its 102, then 102-86.7=15.3 mill. 16.3 mill if Zimmerman is unguaranteed. Which is still higher than the 8-10 mill Scoots projected, and again trading someone will be necessary to find playing time. So if they trade Augustin, that's 23-24 mill. If they trade Vucevic, that's 28-29 mill. Had they kept Harris, they wouldn't have that kind of flexibility unless they dumped ~30 mill in long term contracts in 2017, and got no salary back, which is damn near impossible in one offseason.

[wise1-2]

Based on Henigan's past, I smell a Vucevic for Amir Johnson swap at the deadline. Good expiring deal for Orlando so they can replace Vucevic with another monster contract the same way they replaced Harris with Biyombo.

You should post my explanation for the post you have in your sig. Just to confirm to people how clueless you are when it comes to the Magic.

[Scoot McGroot]

Check the numbers again. I posted the guaranteed salary. I dont think you're taking into account that Watson's contract is only 1 mill guaranteed.

I am. I even explicitly stated that it would be 4m less room if he is not cut. I can bold it also? I will do that now.

The 10 players you listed have cap hits of $86,782,830 total with Watson cut, and then you only have 9 bodies of roster counts. So, you might want to account for the fact that you need incomplete roster charges. You might also want to account for a draft pick, or not. Given a cap of $102 million as expected, you will have a really hard time getting to ~20m as is.

I'm a little busy multitasking. I didn't see that part about Watson, and I also thought the cap will be 108 mill? if its 102, then 102-86.7=15.3 mill. 16.3 mill if Zimmerman is unguaranteed. Which is still higher than the 8-10 mill Scoots projected, and again trading someone will be necessary to find playing time. So if they trade Augustin, that's 23-24 mill. If they trade Vucevic, that's 28-29 mill. Had they kept Harris, they wouldn't have that kind of flexibility unless they dumped ~30 mill in long term contracts in 2017, and got no salary back, which is damn near impossible in one offseason.

Ah, I guess I did include Watson's full contract, not his guarantee. So, $12-$16m. Sorry about that.

Now, if you're talking about dumping all of your players for cap space, sure, you could do that. Just like you could do with Harris. So, dumping Harris last year, and then signing Jeff Green to a one year deal this year didn't change anything. You're still required to make massive moves and dump a lot of money on guaranteed contracts to get massive space, as you think is just an automatic. Again, lowered salary cap to $102m, much less teams that will have cap space to absorb these guys in the summer (so you have to deal these guys before the deadline for expiring deals), and other charges you didn't take into account. And renouncing Ibaka, too. Which, if the plan is to just renounce Ibaka, why do that deal and just hold onto Oladipo (whom you could also renounce, or trade for a future 1st), and hold onto the #10, which you could deal Sabonis for another future pick? Seems like Ibaka is certainly in the plans.

And dumping Zimmerman doesn't help as much as you think, since you would have minimum roster charges take the place of him (roughly $550k, when Zimmerman is owed $990k, so, a savings on the cap of only around $440k). Why not keep Zimmerman at that price, instead of dumping him?