OT: Playing Chess w myself

[blueadams]

Only way to do it. To pick a top all-time team. Play chess w yourself. Snake draft. Think hard.

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1st pick: Team A

Jordan (obviously)

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2nd & 3rd picks: Team B

...Let's establish a player pool:

C: Kareem, Hakeem. Shaq. Wilt, Russell, Duncan (sorry, non-stretch-4's are 5's). Admiral. Ben.
5/4: Dirk. KG. Kemp. Sheed.
F: Bird.
G/F: LeBron, Magic. Durant. Kobe. Oscar. Pippen. Nique. Rodman.
SG: Reggie.
G: Curry. Zeke. Glove. Iverson.

That's probably it as far as guys I'd consider.

2nd and 3rd picks.. LeBron. And.. Magic.

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4th & 5th picks: Team A
(TeamA: Jordan. TeamB: LeBron, Magic.)

C: Kareem, Hakeem. Shaq. Wilt, Russell, Duncan (sorry, non-stretch-4's are 5's). Admiral. Ben.
5/4: Dirk. KG. Kemp. Sheed.
F: Bird.
G/F: Durant. Kobe. Oscar. Pippen. Nique. Rodman.
SG: Reggie.
G: Curry. Zeke. Glove. Iverson.

4th and 5th picks.. Kareem and Hakeem. Going big. Gonna defend the post. Gonna have versatile scorers down-low. FT-shooters.

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6th & 7th picks: Team B
(TeamA: Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem. TeamB: LeBron, Magic.)

C: Shaq. Wilt, Russell, Duncan (sorry, non-stretch-4's are 5's). Admiral. Ben.
5/4: Dirk. KG. Kemp. Sheed.
F: Bird.
G/F: Durant. Kobe. Oscar. Pippen. Nique. Rodman.
SG: Reggie.
G: Curry. Zeke. Glove. Iverson.

6th and 7th picks. Big men will be on the board for the remainder. I'll go Durant and Bird.

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8th & 9th picks: Team A
TeamA: Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem. TeamB: LeBron, Magic, Durant, Bird.

C: Shaq. Wilt, Russell, Duncan (sorry, non-stretch-4's are 5's). Admiral. Ben.
5/4: Dirk. KG. Kemp. Sheed.
G/F: Kobe. Oscar. Pippen. Nique. Rodman.
SG: Reggie.
G: Curry. Zeke. Glove. Iverson.

8th and 9th picks. Got my 4 and 5. Jordan. I'll go Kobe and Reggie (size over Curry).

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10th pick: Team B
TeamA: Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Kobe, Reggie. TeamB: LeBron, Magic, Durant, Bird.

C: Shaq. Wilt, Russell, Duncan (sorry, non-stretch-4's are 5's). Admiral. Ben.
5/4: Dirk. KG. Kemp. Sheed.
G/F: Oscar. Pippen. Nique. Rodman.
G: Curry. Zeke. Glove. Iverson.

10th pick. Guess I just need a 5 here. And ****. I guess I'll go Admiral. I don't want a 50% FT shooter (Shaq/Wilt/Russell/Ben) out there.

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So. Teams.

Team A - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Team B
C: Kareem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - D. Robinson
PF: Hakeem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Magic
SF: Kobe - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Durant
SG: Reggie - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bird
PG: Jordan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - LeBron

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I guess Team B gets 11th pick too. So I'll take Popovich and pray. Team A I'd honestly probably take Larry Brown.

Who's gonna win?

It'd be an f-ing crazy game for sure. Team A's gonna have much better rim protection and rebounding. And Jordan. W/ Kobe as a #2 attacker. And Reggie as a deep release.

Team B. DRobinson can do as good a job defensively against Kareem or Hakeem as you'd hope. LeBron can do as good a job defensively against Jordan as you'd hope. With LeBron, Magic, Bird, Durant you've got 4 ultra-talented ultra-versatile selfless ball-movers out there.. with a good unselfish versatile big man in the middle in D-Rob. I guess you hope that works out. Bird and Durant are both deadly from deep. Magic your primary ball-man. LeBron forcing the issue physically.

Boy. Idk who'd win.

Yikes. Tough call.

Do your owns

[Pharaoh]

Drafting is different as you can cancel match ups with each pick:

Left: Jordan
Right: Lebron

Right: Magic
Left: Kobe

Left: Hakeem
Right: Duncan

Right: Bird
Left: Durant

Left: Pippen - completes the ultimate starting 5 of:

Jordan, Kobe
Pippen, Durant
Hakeem

Right: the left's perimeter D is insane so you'd counter that with a stronger low post presence to take advantage...Kareem

Magic, Lebron
Bird, Duncan
Kareem

Funny thing after 10 picks: the white guy is the best shooter on either team

[In SVG We Trust]

Magic LeBron Bird Duncan Kareem on the same team... that's an astonishing IQ lineup... Even with the incredible D of the other lineup... Could you imagine how the ball movement between them could be? LeBron and Bird are the best non-PG playmakers ever, with Magic who is the player with the best court vision ever, Duncan who have been ALWAYS in the right spot all his career and Kareem who was great putting the ball inside from the high post... Damn

[BadMofoPimp]

Jordan/Kobe/Lebron/Duncan/Shaq = World Domination.

[Manocad]

Been there, done that

[DocRI]

Okay, here's a quick "GET OFF MY LAWN!!!"-style rant from an old man. But I've seen this every time anyone does any version of an "all time lineup" game on these boards, and it drives me bat s*** crazy. Per the OP —

• Jordan was a SG, NOT a PG.
• James is a SF, NOT a PG.
• Bird was a SF, NOT a SG (this one is especially laughable, as the thought of Bird chasing 2s around screens is comic).
• Kobe was a SG, NOT a SF.
• Magic was a PG, NOT a PF.

Moreover, you fudge ALL of these other players' positions and then declare, "Sorry, non-stretch-4's are 5's," when it comes to Tim Duncan, who actually DID play a ton of minutes at PF in his career and many consider the GOAT at that position.

As someone who watched all of those players in their primes, do you realize how silly your final lineups look? You've got the greatest PG of all time playing out of position at PF so that King James can play out of position at PG!

Look, I get the logic — Bird could shoot, so he could play SG; Magic was 6'9" with a hook shot, so he could play PF; LeBron and MJ were both great passers and facilitators, so they could play PG, etc. COULD these players play those positions? Yes, they COULD, but they DIDN'T and there were reasons why they didn't. IMHO, if you're doing an all-time-greatest lineup and using distinct positions, you need to keep players at the positions they ACTUALLY PLAYED.

Okay, rant over. And you don't have to get off my lawn so long as you change that "Bird at SG" silliness ...

[Alexander]

This is tough. I want to start with a PG or a C, as I would if I were forming an IRL team, but I shouldn't, because those positions are historically deep. SG is the weakest, so I think Jordan is #1 by default. If you miss on him, you're left with Kobe at best. If you miss on Shaq, you can still get Wilt or Kareem or Hakeem.

[Alexander]

So. Teams.

Team A - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Team B
C: Kareem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - D. Robinson
PF: Hakeem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Magic
SF: Kobe - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Durant
SG: Reggie - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bird
PG: Jordan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - LeBron

There are so many good players left off. Using all new players, I think I can come to close to matching both teams.

Wilt vs Kareem-----------------------------Duncan vs Robinson
Webber vs Hakeem------------------------Garnett vs Magic
McGrady vs Kobe---------------------------Leonard vs Durant
Wade vs Reggie-----------------------------Hill vs Bird
Curry vs Jordan-----------------------------Westbrook vs LeBron

Curry guards Reggie, Wade guards Jordan.

How'd I do?

[In SVG We Trust]

Actually Jordan played as PG

[flow]

Actually Jordan played as PG

No, he didn't. His starting point guards were BJ Armstrong and Ron Harper.

[Alexander]

I think it's silly to stay "true to form" when we are discussing a hypothetical.

Whether Michael Jordan played PG in real life isn't important. What was important to the OP was that playing Jordan *out of position* wasn't enough of a disadvantage to leave a talent like that off of his hypothetical team. He shouldn't have to type that out, you should be able to infer it. I shouldn't have to justify at length my decision to put Tim Duncan at C on my roster. I don't have to provide a thesis on the system I want to run, the plays, the minutes distribution, and all the technical details that would mitigate playing Tim Duncan "out of position."

PG: Shaq
SG: Wilt
SF: Kareem
PF: Hakeem
C: Yao

Is absolutely silly. But we are dealing in shades of silliness to begin with.

PG: Chris Paul
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Oscar Robertson
PF: Anthony Davis
C: Wilt Chamberlain

is silly too. None of this is pragmatic. I just created a team with a dead man on it.

Yes, playing a SF/PF in Larry Bird at SG adds a pile of silliness on top of our silly pile. But you know why he did that. He was trying to build a team with a high collective basketball IQ and he was trying to tack on shooting to stretch the floor, and he's aware that Bird would be a defensive liability and probably couldn't take enough SGs off the dribble and would turn into a niche.role player on offense...but Larry Bird is good enough that this situation would be preferable to throwing Vince Carter out there.

You already get it. Picking nits about hypotheticals? Unnecessary.
If you care enough, create a better team. The game we're playing and the rules we're playing by are all a construct, anyway. It's not worth getting worked up over somebody trying to be creative in a THOUGHT exercise.

[Pharaoh]

OP could have his line up as:

Admiral
Bird
Durant
Lebron
Magic

And there'd be less complaining about positions...

But it wouldn't be blueadams

[mattao313]

But it wouldn't be blueadams

(OT) HA. I always read that guys name bluedreams for some reason.

[Alexander]

OP could have his line up as:

Admiral
Bird
Durant
Lebron
Magic

And there'd be less complaining about positions...

But it wouldn't be blueadams

That's how I took it. I wouldn't have Bird at SG or Magic at PF in any of them, but there are a couple permutations.
C Robinson
SF/PF Bird
SG/SF Durant
PG/SG/SF/PF LeBron
PG/SF Magic

Robinson.....Robinson.....Robinson.....Robinson
Bird...........Bird..........Bird...........James
James........Magic.........Durant.......Bird
Durant.......Durant........James........Durant
Magic........James.........Magic........Magic

There might be others I can't think of. I wouldn't argue about any of these.

[Alexander]

There's a couple things I'd want to play around with;
Duncan at C
Hakeem and Robinson at PF
Magic and Kobe at SF
Durant at SG
LeBron at PG
Duncan and Garnett in post
Chamberlain and LeBron
Shaq and LeBron

I'm thinking too much about this. I'd rather draft against someone else!

[MrBigShot]

Eh fit is more important than maintaining positional integrity. A lot of the greats are so versatile that positions really wouldn't be an issue. LeBron could certainly play PG in a given line up.

[Pharaoh]

There's a couple things I'd want to play around with;
Duncan at C
Hakeem and Robinson at PF
Magic and Kobe at SF
Durant at SG
LeBron at PG
Duncan and Garnett in post
Chamberlain and LeBron
Shaq and LeBron

I'm thinking too much about this. I'd rather draft against someone else!

Same here cause then you've got match ups to deal with...

On that note:

Right goes Jordan goes #1

Left counters with Lebron at #2 & Kobe at #3, which almost covers Jordan and gives Right a match up issue vs Lebron

I doubt anyone would take Bird to counter Lebron...in this scenario it's probably Durant...so then Right selects Magic to present a nightmare match up at PG...

Left counters with Pippen since the other PG options aren't going to counter what Magic brings...and picks Hakeem to present a nightmare match up for the Right

Right counters with Duncan and takes Bird for shooting, IQ & the "which one of you **** is gonna finish 2nd" mentality

Left now can completely change the match ups with the last pick:

Hakeem v Duncan
TBD v Bird
Pippen v Durant
Kobe v Jordan
Lebron v Magic

Does Left take a PG and shift Lebron to PF?

Does Left take a C & shift Hakeem onto Bird?

Does Left take a SG & shift Kobe to PG or Lebron to PF?

Or just take a PF?

We should do a 10 person snake draft for a starting 5...kinda like what we did with Pistons...would be interesting to see who got drafted where & what units we put together

[Alexander]

But none of these teams are perfect. There's always the chance that that third unaccounted for team comes in and creates a better unit than either of the first two, because they were more concerned with what the other was building than building something on their own.
If left takes a PG, a C, a SG, or a PF, I still have so many players to choose from with impunity.
Take Isiah, I still have Paul and Stockton and Curry and Nash and Kidd and Robertson.
Take Shaq, I still have Wilt and Jabbar and Yao and Sabonis.
Take Wade, and I still have Allen and Iverson and Drexler and Miller and Carter and McGrady and Mullin and Roy.
Take Garnett, I have Barkley and Webber and Nowitzki and Malone.
My point is, both teams would be screwed if an expansion team presented itself. They'd *think* their strategy was a good one, that they got BPA, that they drafted for need well, that their team can beat the other one...but the third team could be more ideal even if it sat out for the first ten picks, because it doesn't have to worry about your next two picks foiling their plan.

Shaq or Wilt
Garnett or Webber
Hill
Allen or McGrady
Stockton or Curry

I think team leftovers wins, or at least cancels out enough matchups that everything is reduced down to Jordan being better than whatever SG he's against or LeBron and Magic's mismatch at PG, anyway.

[Warspite]

You have to consider depth at the position as well. The depth at SF is so huge why draft it before the 5th rd? Conversely if you have the 2nd pick and MJ is the 1st why draft a SG until the 5th pick? If you take KAJ I'm not going to panic and take Wilt to counter because I know he will be there since you don't need another C.

I can think of maybe a dozen players I would draft before MJ. I would also consider Bird a PF because of the lack of star PFs.

In a 30 team draft I ran out this lineup
C KAJ
PF McHale
SF Aguirre
SG Monroe
PG Cheeks

In a 16 team league I had this team
PG Isiah
SG West
SF Mullin
PF Mel Daniels (2xABA/Finals MVP)
C DRob

[In SVG We Trust]

Payton
Jordan
Leonard
Rodman
Big Ben

Who is scoring against them?