Did Masai choose the right post-DeRozan path?

[Ell Curry]

Let's assume the DeRozan deal was happening but he could have been parked at his cap hold after agreeing. We're heavy favorites to have homecourt advantage and are a Lebron injury away from having a 30-35% chance of making the finals (with the Kyrie Cavs, Celtics and Detroit, a Southeast team or who the **** knows as likely other East contenders). Teams in that situation don't often make key changes after getting further than they ever have before. That sort of thing happens after going backwards or stalling. We'll see what happens next summer of the ones after.

So, right now we're at 106.3M spent. Cut 11M for DeRozan being at his cap hold of 15.5, cut 5.6 for Sullinger and we're down to 90.3M. A trade of Ross into cap space to a team like Brooklyn (who offered Tyler Johnson and Crabbe far far more) and we'd cut 10M and be down to 80.3M. That's 13.8M space left under the 94.1 cap for the year (set on July 2nd unless I am reading that wrong). Biyombo got 17M to start. To make up that 3.2M gap, or at least make up some of it, we'd need to have either offered Demar more one year (his salary is is stagnant but we could have offered him an extra 1-2M in later years instead of now) or gotten rid of Bebe for a minimum guy, saving about 1.4M and euro stashed the #27 pick, saving another .8M.

We'd still have an exception, though I'm unsure if Biyombo not being a Bird player means we'd have a weaker one than the 5.6M one we used.

So, the question is, do you prefer our current team:

JV-Poeltl-Bebe
Sullinger-Patterson-Siakham-Uthoff
Carroll-Ross-Bruno
DeRozan-Powell
Lowry-Joseph-Wright

or does this look better:

JV-Biyombo-Bebe
Patterson-MLE-Siakham-Uthoff
Carroll-(#9)-Bruno
DeRozan-Powell
Lowry-Joseph-Wright

(with about 2M less cap space in a future year with the DeRozan contract changes).

I think it will ultimately come down to how the picks do, and the analytics case for Poeltl being a very low risk player likely to provide the value of a solid backup center (probably 10-12M under the new cap) while only making about 3-4M a year should be tough to argue with by the end of the 2017-18 season if he reaches that status.

I don't think Sullinger will be an effective 4 for us unless he's completely transformed his body (and even then, his 3pt #s are ugly) and that will hurt us, but I can see why Masai went the direction he did. I also wonder if we could have moved from #9 to #8 by giving up De Colo to the Kings, as they accepted a similar package to move down to #13, and we could have then drafted Chriss at the #8 spot to give us a potential PF of the future (not sold on him necessarily, but he has talent and we still likely need a PF going forward unless Siakham massively outperforms expectations).

So, Ross + Poeltl or Biyombo + #9 + minor asset loss (2M more on DeRozan in future years or Bebe dumped and the #27 is a eurostash)?

[ciueli]

Teams that use cap space don't have access to the MLE. In addition, we did not have enough cap space to match what BB got from Orlando even if we dumped Ross for nothing. We would have had to dump someone else as well, likely Bruno or Bebe and it's an open question as to whether there were any takers for them within the timeline we needed. I mean, we're not even certain there was a salary dump trade for Ross, so it's all conjecture.

The real decision was between Jonas and Bismack because there's no way we're paying $35M+ a year for two guy who play the same position when we have a big hole at PF and upcoming contracts to Lowry and possibly Patterson next season. It's debatable that the better option this season was to trade Jonas for picks then resign Biyombo with the cap space it opened up while retaining Poeltl and Bebe as backups, but it would have taken a big leap of faith in Bismack and there's no knowing what the trade market for Jonas was early in free agency.

[Ell Curry]

Teams that use cap space don't have access to the MLE. In addition, we did not have enough cap space to match what BB got from Orlando even if we dumped Ross for nothing. We would have had to dump someone else as well, likely Bruno or Bebe and it's an open question as to whether there were any takers for them within the timeline we needed. I mean, we're not even certain there was a salary dump trade for Ross, so it's all conjecture.

The real decision was between Jonas and Bismack because there's no way we're paying $35M+ a year for two guy who play the same position when we have a big hole at PF and upcoming contracts to Lowry and possibly Patterson next season. It's debatable that the better option this season was to trade Jonas for picks then resign Biyombo with the cap space it opened up while retaining Poeltl and Bebe as backups, but it would have taken a big leap of faith in Bismack and there's no knowing what the trade market for Jonas was early in free agency.

Paragraph 1 - I wasn't sure about the exception and Biyombo's exact status. We'd have gone from the MLE to a lower exception, yes? The rest of your comments in the first paragraph I covered exactly. We could have given up a couple of mil in cap space later or yes, dumped Bebe. I think for his tiny deal, he would have been dealable.

Paragraph 2 - The 3rd option would have been to just draft Poeltl and go forward with Biyombo and Poeltl at the 5 with Jonas traded for a PF, yeah, but it's impossible to know what the return would have been. It is interesting to think that we could maybe have dealt Jonas for an unprotected 2017 1st rounder from a team likely to be terrible but looking to add talent like the Lakers (owe Philly their pick if top 3) or Sacramento or whoever, or some impressive young talent at the 3/4 to better balance out the roster.

[Mikistan]

is there a path where Casey ineptitude gets promoted to some figurehead position and we get a new coach?

read: I spoke too soon, we got 2 assistant coaches left to hire and those are the difference makers anyway

[Jonn]

Ummm any scenario in which we give a backup Center 70m is a bad move. Moving Ross is also terrible idea considering hes one of our only reliable 3PT shooters making pennies compared to players signing this off-season with similar skill sets.

Drafting Poelt was fine. Keeping him long term and potentially playing him at Power Forward would be outrageous. Hes in no way a Power Forward.

[ciueli]

Paragraph 1 - I wasn't sure about the exception and Biyombo's exact status. We'd have gone from the MLE to a lower exception, yes? The rest of your comments in the first paragraph I covered exactly. We could have given up a couple of mil in cap space later or yes, dumped Bebe. I think for his tiny deal, he would have been dealable.

You're assuming there was a team or teams willing to just absorb the players we would have needed to move in order to sign BB and we have no reason to believe that was the case. There are lots of instances of teams being forced to include future draft picks in trades just to move large long term contracts to free up cap space. As for the lower exception I have no idea what you're talking about - if a team used cap space they don't even get access to the smaller taxpayer MLE. And we live in a world where even the MLE doesn't usually get a team a decent player.

Paragraph 2 - The 3rd option would have been to just draft Poeltl and go forward with Biyombo and Poeltl at the 5 with Jonas traded for a PF, yeah, but it's impossible to know what the return would have been. It is interesting to think that we could maybe have dealt Jonas for an unprotected 2017 1st rounder from a team likely to be terrible but looking to add talent like the Lakers (owe Philly their pick if top 3) or Sacramento or whoever, or some impressive young talent at the 3/4 to better balance out the roster.

Except if we wanted to trade Jonas and retain Bismack we wouldn't have been able to take back significant salary, so there's really no trading him for a PF. It would be trading him for a low paid player and future picks in order to get the cap space to sign BB. Again, finding a salary dump trade early in free agency is really difficult and we likely would have wound up taking 50 cents on the dollar just to make it happen. I think a lot of posters on this board would be pretty shocked to see how poor Jonas' trade value is on the open market. There were rumours that Houston offered an expiring Dwight Howard for him at the trade deadline, a pretty bad offer.

[Scase]

I get what you're trying to discuss but, honestly the discussion is either should he have re-signed DD or not. Not a shot at DD but, signing him or not signing him is really what matters, trading away a role player or drafting a role player in the grand scheme of things is a drop in the bucket.

Ultimately it's the same thing, unless he does something huge like trade away KL/JV etc. there's not much he can do that would have made much of a difference.

[ciueli]

I get what you're trying to discuss but, honestly the discussion is either should he have re-signed DD or not. Not a shot at DD but, signing him or not signing him is really what matters, trading away a role player or drafting a role player in the grand scheme of things is a drop in the bucket.

Ultimately it's the same thing, unless he does something huge like trade away KL/JV etc. there's not much he can do that would have made much of a difference.

We were always going to re-sign DeMar as long as he wanted to return. No respectable NBA team tells a two time All-Star in the middle of his prime to take a hike after the team just made the EC finals, so it's not really a discussion. We would have become the laughingstock of the league if we let him walk, reputation is huge when it comes to attracting free agents or keeping your own players.

[Scase]

I get what you're trying to discuss but, honestly the discussion is either should he have re-signed DD or not. Not a shot at DD but, signing him or not signing him is really what matters, trading away a role player or drafting a role player in the grand scheme of things is a drop in the bucket.

Ultimately it's the same thing, unless he does something huge like trade away KL/JV etc. there's not much he can do that would have made much of a difference.

We were always going to re-sign DeMar as long as he wanted to return. No respectable NBA team tells a two time All-Star in the middle of his prime to take a hike after the team just made the EC finals, so it's not really a discussion. We would have become the laughingstock of the league if we let him walk, reputation is huge when it comes to attracting free agents or keeping your own players.

I'm not gonna argue that in the eyes of the league it's what we HAD to do, my idea is that it's not what we SHOULD have done. Long term that contract is going to do more harm than good. It's a Raptors forum, discussions are fun.

[TheAlchemist]

The one thing that we severely messed up on was not trading up ONE position more for Marquese Chriss .

He would of been perfect for our team and I feel we should of really pushed for it. The highest ceiling and even if we had to give up a couple of second rounders, I wouldn't of mind.

[realball]

I get what you're trying to discuss but, honestly the discussion is either should he have re-signed DD or not. Not a shot at DD but, signing him or not signing him is really what matters, trading away a role player or drafting a role player in the grand scheme of things is a drop in the bucket.

Ultimately it's the same thing, unless he does something huge like trade away KL/JV etc. there's not much he can do that would have made much of a difference.

We were always going to re-sign DeMar as long as he wanted to return. No respectable NBA team tells a two time All-Star in the middle of his prime to take a hike after the team just made the EC finals, so it's not really a discussion. We would have become the laughingstock of the league if we let him walk, reputation is huge when it comes to attracting free agents or keeping your own players.

I'm not gonna argue that in the eyes of the league it's what we HAD to do, my idea is that it's not what we SHOULD have done. Long term that contract is going to do more harm than good. It's a Raptors forum, discussions are fun.

This is not much of a discussion though, it's just complaining. We all are aware that Demar is quite overpaid, and that we're a treadmill team. A good discussion would be about how we could potentially become contenders with what we have, or what kind of offense/defense we should be running. You can complain about Demar's contract and losing Biyombo all you want, but let's not act like it's a productive discussion.

[neurotik]

To all those complaining about re-signing DeMar:

The NBA is a business. The significance of that cannot be overstated when it comes to what a GM considers when making a decision. Signing DeMar is good business. It is also a pragmatic and stable asset and talent management. By re-signing DD, Masai is keeping a group that made it to the ECF together, he is developing stability within an organization that has had (still has?) major cultural and identity problems.

The DD signing will be significant in that it will show loyalty to and from the organization and it will cement an era that should, at the very least, develop a winning culture and provide some more entertaining playoff runs.

Finally the contract will look fine in a year or two. If MU could trade Bargs on a 15M/yr and flip a 20M/ yr Rudy, he will have no problem flipping DD on 25/yr should he need to

[Scase]

We were always going to re-sign DeMar as long as he wanted to return. No respectable NBA team tells a two time All-Star in the middle of his prime to take a hike after the team just made the EC finals, so it's not really a discussion. We would have become the laughingstock of the league if we let him walk, reputation is huge when it comes to attracting free agents or keeping your own players.

I'm not gonna argue that in the eyes of the league it's what we HAD to do, my idea is that it's not what we SHOULD have done. Long term that contract is going to do more harm than good. It's a Raptors forum, discussions are fun.

This is not much of a discussion though, it's just complaining. We all are aware that Demar is quite overpaid, and that we're a treadmill team. A good discussion would be about how we could potentially become contenders with what we have, or what kind of offense/defense we should be running. You can complain about Demar's contract and losing Biyombo all you want, but let's not act like it's a productive discussion.

It is when that contract is the thing keeping you from building this fabled contender you are eluding to.

With the team we have now, contender status is quite far away. It would require trading away key pieces and leave us at most likely a net neutral place. Talking about signings is a discussion, whether or not it was a good one is irrelevant.

[ciueli]

It is when that contract is the thing keeping you from building this fabled contender you are eluding to.

With the team we have now, contender status is quite far away. It would require trading away key pieces and leave us at most likely a net neutral place. Talking about signings is a discussion, whether or not it was a good one is irrelevant.

Even if we had let DeMar walk and avoided using our cap space this year (around $20M after renouncing DeMar) we would still only have about $24-25M in cap space in 2017-2018 after factoring in Kyle Lowry's cap hold and draft picks. That's not enough to get a superstar player, this year it wouldn't have been enough to get Al Horford and the max will be greater next year. Sure, we could free up some more space by dumping Bebe/Bruno/Delon or whoever is underperforming or unnecessary, but what big name free agent is going to want to come here after we told a multi-time All-Star to leave in free agency when he really wanted to stay?

[Scase]

It is when that contract is the thing keeping you from building this fabled contender you are eluding to.

With the team we have now, contender status is quite far away. It would require trading away key pieces and leave us at most likely a net neutral place. Talking about signings is a discussion, whether or not it was a good one is irrelevant.

Even if we had let DeMar walk and avoided using our cap space this year (around $20M after renouncing DeMar) we would still only have about $24-25M in cap space in 2017-2018 after factoring in Kyle Lowry's cap hold and draft picks. That's not enough to get a superstar player, this year it wouldn't have been enough to get Al Horford and the max will be greater next year. Sure, we could free up some more space by dumping Bebe/Bruno/Delon or whoever is underperforming or unnecessary, but what big name free agent is going to want to come here after we told a multi-time All-Star to leave in free agency when he really wanted to stay?

Why does it have to be black or white?

Why are the only options sign DD for a bad contract or don't sign him at all. My biggest gripe isn't that we signed him, I'm not a fan of his game but he's not a crap player. My problem is MU went full Colangelo and bid against himself. There was literally no bids from any other teams, we just threw 140mil at him and called it a day.

We then proceeded to do nothing at all for the rest of the off season because that contract has screwed up our cap space for the next 5 years. Bargain with him, and hell if another team wants to offer him 140mil THEN you let him walk. It's not just, end of the season KBYE, it's a god damn bargaining process and we did zero bargaining.


EDIT: Scratch that, we just signed E.J. Singler.

[BismackonLebron]

Should have kept Big Business and dealt Terrence if that was actually an option. Seems a no brainer, no? The poll indicates I'm in the minority though.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

No good can come from looking at our salary cap situation. We should just continue gushing about our flexibility and young talent and enjoy the ride.

[SaveTheHens]

First off I'll say that I'm a Ross fan. I don't think it would have been the right decision to trade Ross, with what was probably being offered. I believe in Masai's competence to the fullest, I know he was involved in a lot of trade talks, and I think he was right in his assessment that we would be giving too much in a trade. Ross, regardless of what this board says, has a lot of potential & is a great fit on this team. At the very least he's a great trade piece to use before the trade deadline. I think whatever we had offered, Masai will get more with that with a midseason trade, possibly including Ross, where we would get adequate value for a 25 year old on a now great contract.

[SaveTheHens]

I'm not gonna argue that in the eyes of the league it's what we HAD to do, my idea is that it's not what we SHOULD have done. Long term that contract is going to do more harm than good. It's a Raptors forum, discussions are fun.

This is not much of a discussion though, it's just complaining. We all are aware that Demar is quite overpaid, and that we're a treadmill team. A good discussion would be about how we could potentially become contenders with what we have, or what kind of offense/defense we should be running. You can complain about Demar's contract and losing Biyombo all you want, but let's not act like it's a productive discussion.

It is when that contract is the thing keeping you from building this fabled contender you are eluding to.

With the team we have now, contender status is quite far away. It would require trading away key pieces and leave us at most likely a net neutral place. Talking about signings is a discussion, whether or not it was a good one is irrelevant.

I don't think we could have made a move to make us contenders this offseason. All I can say is that we're much closer to being contenders than what we were before Masai started. He's been building this team up slowly, and even if we want to doomsday everything I think he's got enough tricks up his sleeves to get us to the promised land. At the very least he's been responsible for breaking some franchise records in the regular season and the playoffs.

Really though I think we're one or two young players fulfilling their potential from being a contender. If Powell & Ross turn up this year like never before then we are in the conversation, simply because of their production or even because we can flip them and picks for a star PF

[SaveTheHens]

It is when that contract is the thing keeping you from building this fabled contender you are eluding to.

With the team we have now, contender status is quite far away. It would require trading away key pieces and leave us at most likely a net neutral place. Talking about signings is a discussion, whether or not it was a good one is irrelevant.

Even if we had let DeMar walk and avoided using our cap space this year (around $20M after renouncing DeMar) we would still only have about $24-25M in cap space in 2017-2018 after factoring in Kyle Lowry's cap hold and draft picks. That's not enough to get a superstar player, this year it wouldn't have been enough to get Al Horford and the max will be greater next year. Sure, we could free up some more space by dumping Bebe/Bruno/Delon or whoever is underperforming or unnecessary, but what big name free agent is going to want to come here after we told a multi-time All-Star to leave in free agency when he really wanted to stay?

Why does it have to be black or white?

Why are the only options sign DD for a bad contract or don't sign him at all. My biggest gripe isn't that we signed him, I'm not a fan of his game but he's not a crap player. My problem is MU went full Colangelo and bid against himself. There was literally no bids from any other teams, we just threw 140mil at him and called it a day.

We then proceeded to do nothing at all for the rest of the off season because that contract has screwed up our cap space for the next 5 years. Bargain with him, and hell if another team wants to offer him 140mil THEN you let him walk. It's not just, end of the season KBYE, it's a god damn bargaining process and we did zero bargaining.


EDIT: Scratch that, we just signed E.J. Singler.

This is coming from a place of ignorance. And while I don't know the in's & out's of what goes on in the league, I do know that the Lakers were interested in Demar, even at a max contract. Did we outbid ourselves? I don't know. Maybe we could have shaved off a few million, maybe we would have lost him instead. I don't think it changes up the scene very much, and I do think it was a great asset retention strategy regardless of the price. Demar can easily be flipped to another team for other assets, maybe not super star power but at the very least an unprotected pick. Saving ourselves 5-10 million would be nice, but not a game changer & it doesn't warrant mistrust in Masai who so far has been the best thing that happened to this franchise (or at least on par with Leiweke)