Welcome Okafor: Thread 2

[LloydFree]

Well Okafor played for a historically bad team. He is extremely underated. Even if average defensively . Okafor will be a absolute offensive monster. You can't teach that.

He was a big part of the team being historically bad.

They went 2-20 last season without him.

They were 8-52 with him. So what when is your next great point?

[spikeslovechild]

He was a big part of the team being historically bad.

They went 2-20 last season without him.

They were 8-52 with him. So what when is your next great point?

My point is he was not the reason we were historically bad. Otherwise the team would have got better after his injury. Not sure why that needed an explanation but there it is.

[LloydFree]

They went 2-20 last season without him.

They were 8-52 with him. So what when is your next great point?

My point is he was not the reason we were historically bad. Otherwise the team would have got better after his injury. Not sure why that needed an explanation but there it is.

I never said he was THE reason they were historically bad. I said he was a major part of the reason they were historically bad. If you are a 30mpg starter on an 8-52 team, you are a major part of the reason the team was bad. Period.

[spikeslovechild]

They were 8-52 with him. So what when is your next great point?

My point is he was not the reason we were historically bad. Otherwise the team would have got better after his injury. Not sure why that needed an explanation but there it is.

I never said he was THE reason they were historically bad. I said he was a major part of the reason they were historically bad. If you are a 30mpg starter on an 8-52 team, you are a major part of the reason the team was bad. Period.

So Noel was a major reason why we were historically bad as well then.

[LloydFree]

My point is he was not the reason we were historically bad. Otherwise the team would have got better after his injury. Not sure why that needed an explanation but there it is.

I never said he was THE reason they were historically bad. I said he was a major part of the reason they were historically bad. If you are a 30mpg starter on an 8-52 team, you are a major part of the reason the team was bad. Period.

So Noel was a major reason why we were historically bad as well then.

Yes, he was a major reason too. And luckily for him he actually had a good rookie season as a Center to show he can have a positive impact.

[rzzzzz]

Carmello Anthony level scorer. Jah skills are rare. He will be a perenial allstar.

I'm surprised Boston and Phoenix didnt see that, and preferred drafting Jaylen Brown and Dragen Bender to accepting a "future perennial All-star" on draft night...

i got my doubts that Okafor was offered to them. i mean first we're told that Danny was offering the NJ pick for Okafor at the deadline, when it was worth more, 'cause we really wanted a top two pick. at #3, it wasn't worth as much. then we heard that Boston "wants Noel" until Woj told us they wouldn't trade the pick for Noel, our late picks, Covington and Grant. Woj told us there was discussions of Noel for Teague. outside of Bryan's vague announcement about everything must go, i've only heard that no one will take Okafor from the same crack sources that told us that Embiid broke his foot a second time.

[Ericb5]

Carmello Anthony level scorer. Jah skills are rare. He will be a perenial allstar.

I'm surprised Boston and Phoenix didnt see that, and preferred drafting Jaylen Brown and Dragen Bender to accepting a "future perennial All-star" on draft night...

i got my doubts that Okafor was offered to them. i mean first we're told that Danny was offering the NJ pick for Okafor at the deadline, when it was worth more, 'cause we really wanted a top two pick. at #3, it wasn't worth as much. then we heard that Boston "wants Noel" until Woj told us they wouldn't trade the pick for Noel, our late picks, Covington and Grant. Woj told us there was discussions of Noel for Teague. outside of Bryan's vague announcement about everything must go, i've only heard that no one will take Okafor from the same crack sources that told us that Embiid broke his foot a second time.

For the record, I don't think that Woj reported the Noel for Teague rumor. He just retweeted the guy who reported it fro Atlanta.

[HartfordWhalers]

I'm surprised Boston and Phoenix didnt see that, and preferred drafting Jaylen Brown and Dragen Bender to accepting a "future perennial All-star" on draft night...

i got my doubts that Okafor was offered to them. i mean first we're told that Danny was offering the NJ pick for Okafor at the deadline, when it was worth more, 'cause we really wanted a top two pick. at #3, it wasn't worth as much. then we heard that Boston "wants Noel" until Woj told us they wouldn't trade the pick for Noel, our late picks, Covington and Grant. Woj told us there was discussions of Noel for Teague. outside of Bryan's vague announcement about everything must go, i've only heard that no one will take Okafor from the same crack sources that told us that Embiid broke his foot a second time.

For the record, I don't think that Woj reported the Noel for Teague rumor. He just retweeted the guy who reported it fro Atlanta.

Most of those things weren't WOj. Possibly all.

Noel and Covington and 24 and 26 for 3 was stein for instance.
The teague stuff was shams, then embellished further by pompey. etc

[Sandalf42]

I never said he was THE reason they were historically bad. I said he was a major part of the reason they were historically bad. If you are a 30mpg starter on an 8-52 team, you are a major part of the reason the team was bad. Period.

So Noel was a major reason why we were historically bad as well then.

Yes, he was a major reason too. And luckily for him he actually had a good rookie season as a Center to show he can have a positive impact.

That's over simplifying it. Okafor came into a situation where there was already a young starting 5 in Noel. I'm sure trying to play those two together (and Noel not giving a crap for the larger part of the season) had a bigger effect on the teams record than just okafor himself.

And let's put this in perspective, Okafor came into the NBA a 19 year old rookie, and was immediately the best offensive player on the team by a wide margin. He had to carry this team from day 1. He was starting next to players like TJ McConnell, Isiah Canaan (?!), Carl Landry, and I can list any number of marginally competent or inexperienced players. The fact that he came into a team where they were the core players is why we lost 72 games. Isiah Canaan starting multiple games is why we lost 72 games.

This team didn't have an NBA starting caliber PG until the ish smith trade, even then he's not that great. This team was destined to lose a lot of games no matter what okafor did. To pretend that Okafor was a "mean reason" for this team losing so much is ridiculous.

[LloydFree]

So Noel was a major reason why we were historically bad as well then.

Yes, he was a major reason too. And luckily for him he actually had a good rookie season as a Center to show he can have a positive impact.

That's over simplifying it. Okafor came into a situation where there was already a young starting 5 in Noel. I'm sure trying to play those two together (and Noel not giving a crap for the larger part of the season) had a bigger effect on the teams record than just okafor himself.

And let's put this in perspective, Okafor came into the NBA a 19 year old rookie, and was immediately the best offensive player on the team by a wide margin. He had to carry this team from day 1. He was starting next to players like TJ McConnell, Isiah Canaan (?!), Carl Landry, and I can list any number of marginally competent or inexperienced players. The fact that he came into a team where they were the core players is why we lost 72 games. Isiah Canaan starting multiple games is why we lost 72 games.

This team didn't have an NBA starting caliber PG until the ish smith trade, even then he's not that great. This team was destined to lose a lot of games no matter what okafor did. To pretend that Okafor was a "mean reason" for this team losing so much is ridiculous.

By what measure was Okafor the best player on the team. I don't know of one.

[Sandalf42]

Yes, he was a major reason too. And luckily for him he actually had a good rookie season as a Center to show he can have a positive impact.

That's over simplifying it. Okafor came into a situation where there was already a young starting 5 in Noel. I'm sure trying to play those two together (and Noel not giving a crap for the larger part of the season) had a bigger effect on the teams record than just okafor himself.

And let's put this in perspective, Okafor came into the NBA a 19 year old rookie, and was immediately the best offensive player on the team by a wide margin. He had to carry this team from day 1. He was starting next to players like TJ McConnell, Isiah Canaan (?!), Carl Landry, and I can list any number of marginally competent or inexperienced players. The fact that he came into a team where they were the core players is why we lost 72 games. Isiah Canaan starting multiple games is why we lost 72 games.

This team didn't have an NBA starting caliber PG until the ish smith trade, even then he's not that great. This team was destined to lose a lot of games no matter what okafor did. To pretend that Okafor was a "mean reason" for this team losing so much is ridiculous.

By what measure was Okafor the best player on the team. I don't know of one.

Pretty sure I said "best offensive player". Because he was. This year obviously will be different, but last year he was our most skilled offensive player, by a wide margin.

[LloydFree]

That's over simplifying it. Okafor came into a situation where there was already a young starting 5 in Noel. I'm sure trying to play those two together (and Noel not giving a crap for the larger part of the season) had a bigger effect on the teams record than just okafor himself.

And let's put this in perspective, Okafor came into the NBA a 19 year old rookie, and was immediately the best offensive player on the team by a wide margin. He had to carry this team from day 1. He was starting next to players like TJ McConnell, Isiah Canaan (?!), Carl Landry, and I can list any number of marginally competent or inexperienced players. The fact that he came into a team where they were the core players is why we lost 72 games. Isiah Canaan starting multiple games is why we lost 72 games.

This team didn't have an NBA starting caliber PG until the ish smith trade, even then he's not that great. This team was destined to lose a lot of games no matter what okafor did. To pretend that Okafor was a "mean reason" for this team losing so much is ridiculous.

By what measure was Okafor the best player on the team. I don't know of one.

Pretty sure I said "best offensive player". Because he was. This year obviously will be different, but last year he was our most skilled offensive player, by a wide margin.

Yeah, yeah, I should know by now... the concept of your starting Center's terrible defense having any impact on wins and losses is somehow befuddling and gets lost on some... someday we'll get there.

[76ciology]

Between the upside of Tibor Pleiss, darkside of Saric defense &Simmons shooting or the thesis of Okafor. The Okafor topic is most entertaining specially for there are already data for discussion than presumptive imagination. Thus, I'm pretty sure you can get more readers from a Okafor vs Noel debate than Simmons and Embiid blazing the world on fire.

The question for me is really how heavy would you rely on the data from our team last season? If you think it's end all be all, then why are we disregarding how team played worse defense for like a quarter or so when Jah sat out the season?

Are stats only valid if it validates your belief?
I see a lot of people using on vs off to prove Jah sucks. But then when the same stats is used to prove other players were bad/good, it is deemed invalid.

In Jah's case, the stats that can be skewed depending on who's on the court like +/-, on/off and per 100 possession should be taken lightly. While individual stats should be put more weight. Because of the horrible talent and schemes we had last season, that is the biggest reason the losing record.

Okafor biggest problem is not his defense. It's his rebounding that is really unacceptable and has been overlooked by being overly focused on not having a whiteside/gobert level rim protection.

I get the hate on Jah. How we could be the cool guys if we had KAT and KP. And he is really no match in terms on defense with Noel, who he is always being compared with. While we won't compare noel and jah on offense because general consensus doesn't value offense for centers. But doesn't offense reign supreme in this league? With the right scheme, line-up and situation, often criticized scorers like Kyrie, Love and Jr Smith can be integral parts of a championship team.

Anyway, these topics are all subjective and what I think we can all agree with 2 facts..

The team was really horrible and toxic and that Jah is talented, young and has the tools to still improve.

[Sandalf42]

By what measure was Okafor the best player on the team. I don't know of one.

Pretty sure I said "best offensive player". Because he was. This year obviously will be different, but last year he was our most skilled offensive player, by a wide margin.

Yeah, yeah, I should know by now... the concept of your starting Center's terrible defense having any impact on wins and losses is somehow befuddling and gets lost on some... someday we'll get there.

I never said his bad defense didn't have any impact on wins and losses, I'm refuting your point that okafor was a "main reason" why we lost so many games. I'm saying that our awful back court, that featured the likes of Isaiah Canaan, TJ McConnell, Kendall Marshall, and others for long stretches is one of the main reasons we lost a majority of those games. Most of those guys were all pretty terrible on defense, and allowed penetration all game.

Putting It on a 19 year old rookie to pick up all that slack, while trying to carry the team on offense, is not a fair position to judge so harshly.

In fact, blaming a 19 year old rookie who scored almost 18 ppg for a team getting 10 wins is the only "befuddling" thing about this. But I suppose that's lost on me.

[76ciology]

Past is past and no one is blaming anyone. Just something someone can learn.

I watched the replay of that feb 24 game with the Pistons. I can post some clips to show how the problem is not with Jah keeping up with Tobias. It's the blatant miscommunication between Jah and Noel on defense, as if they were sabotaging each other. And other guys like Stauskas got bulldozed by tobias (explains why he tried adding some muscle this offseason) and hollis making (Please Use More Appropriate Word) reads on D (one possession where Jah is in the paint but he still went from corner 3 to paint and overhelps on D that opens up his man).

I think the right way to deal with crossmatching on D was for Jah to play C and Noel at PF on D when shots were missed. Then during deadballs or made baskets, Jah plays PF on D and Noel at C. It was a bad fit on D because opposing teams doesn't respect Noel on offense that they probably would still be ok letting their SF guard him. Those cross matches won't be a problem with Embiid. On non cross match defensive situations (mostly halfcourt) jah plays good D on Aaron Gordon, Milsap and Tobias.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[mksp]

Team is better with Noel on both sides of the court. Period. Why are we still talking about this?

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2016/08/27/jahlil-okafor-lineups/

Once again, while no single lineup has enough minutes to draw a conclusion on, the trend is pretty telling. six of the eight lineups were better defensively with Noel on the court rather than Okafor, and in total we’re looking at a combined 650 minutes of playing time. Certainly not long enough to draw any conclusions on, but enough to raise an eyebrow.

In fact, five of the lineups with Noel would have rated as the best in the league, with five of the lineups with Okafor having a rating that would have come in at last in the league. Please keep in mind that’s in no way suggesting that these lineups could have, or would have, held up to those standards with substantially more playing time, or that Noel was capable of anchoring the best defense in the NBA. It’s just used to provide context for how good or bad these numbers are.

[CoreyGallagher]

Offensively, Prokafors are generally weighing individual performance more heavily than the team with him. For instance - in line-ups with Okafor, Noel, and Ish - the team scored 0.965 ppp. In line-ups with Ish and Noel, without Okafor - the team scored 1.057 ppp. So, we'd blame Okafor for that. However, delve deeper and look at their individual numbers in those line-ups.

With trio, 0.965 ppp
Okafor - 67.4 TS%, 11.6 TO% - 1.28 ppp.
Ish - 44.9 TS%, 11.6 TO% - 0.86 ppp.
Noel - 52.7 TS%, 20.5 TO%, 0.88 ppp.

Duo w/o Okafor, 1.057 ppp
Ish - 46.9 TS%, 9.6 TO% - 0.93 ppp
Noel - 59.9 TS%, 13.5 TO% - 1.10 ppp

The issue seems to be Noel, and Ish - to a lesser extent - suffering from the lack of spacing and not so much Okafor himself. So, I wouldn't necessarily blame him for not fitting, he seemed to do well enough, but he was just a bad fit with that roster. Prokafors are hoping that there are better fits that could actually be productive with him, that perhaps aren't as affected as much by him. Perhaps Okafor could even expand his range and open things up for others, as well (more confident in Okafor being able to than Noel).

[mksp]

Offensively, Prokafors are generally weighing individual performance more heavily than the team with him. For instance - in line-ups with Okafor, Noel, and Ish - the team scored 0.965 ppp. In line-ups with Ish and Noel, without Okafor - the team scored 1.057 ppp. So, we'd blame Okafor for that. However, delve deeper and look at their individual numbers in those line-ups.

With trio, 0.965 ppp
Okafor - 67.4 TS%, 11.6 TO% - 1.28 ppp.
Ish - 44.9 TS%, 11.6 TO% - 0.86 ppp.
Noel - 52.7 TS%, 20.5 TO%, 0.88 ppp.

Duo w/o Okafor, 1.057 ppp
Ish - 46.9 TS%, 9.6 TO% - 0.93 ppp
Noel - 59.9 TS%, 13.5 TO% - 1.10 ppp

The issue seems to be Noel, and Ish - to a lesser extent - suffering from the lack of spacing and not so much Okafor himself. So, I wouldn't necessarily blame him for not fitting, he seemed to do well enough, but he was just a bad fit with that roster. Prokafors are hoping that there are better fits that could actually be productive with him, that perhaps aren't as affected as much by him. Perhaps Okafor could even expand his range and open things up for others, as well (Noel doesn't seem likely to).

Okafor could also stop being a blackhole that eats up the shot clock, start passing the ball, set screens, and move without the ball. You know, play team basketball. But evidence suggests he won't.

Duke won the championship with him on the bench. None of this is new.

[76ciology]

Offensively, Prokafors are generally weighing individual performance more heavily than the team with him. For instance - in line-ups with Okafor, Noel, and Ish - the team scored 0.965 ppp. In line-ups with Ish and Noel, without Okafor - the team scored 1.057 ppp. So, we'd blame Okafor for that. However, delve deeper and look at their individual numbers in those line-ups.

With trio, 0.965 ppp
Okafor - 67.4 TS%, 11.6 TO% - 1.28 ppp.
Ish - 44.9 TS%, 11.6 TO% - 0.86 ppp.
Noel - 52.7 TS%, 20.5 TO%, 0.88 ppp.

Duo w/o Okafor, 1.057 ppp
Ish - 46.9 TS%, 9.6 TO% - 0.93 ppp
Noel - 59.9 TS%, 13.5 TO% - 1.10 ppp

The issue seems to be Noel, and Ish - to a lesser extent - suffering from the lack of spacing and not so much Okafor himself. So, I wouldn't necessarily blame him for not fitting, he seemed to do well enough, but he was just a bad fit with that roster. Prokafors are hoping that there are better fits that could actually be productive with him, that perhaps aren't as affected as much by him. Perhaps Okafor could even expand his range and open things up for others, as well (Noel doesn't seem likely to).

Okafor could also stop being a blackhole that eats up the shot clock, start passing the ball, set screens, and move without the ball. You know, play team basketball. But evidence suggests he won't.

Duke won the championship with him on the bench. None of this is new.

Playing team basketball is much easier than trying to score unassisted volume of points with efficiency, it's the easier way of doing things so I don't see how Jah can't play team basketball when he's always been a winner. And you can see how he takes losing personally with all those off court stuffs.

Problem really is that we played moneyball offense that on top of turning the ball at a ridiculous rate, we had a high volume of kamikaze drives from spot up shooters with below average passing,dribbling&finishing ability, jacking up ill advised threes while these guys also BLATANTLY allows drives/miss or over rotates that a pure scorer like jah who is also asked to carry their load on D and play at an ill advised pace (jah played faster pace than LeBron) based on personnel (played twin tower) and talent (see team's TO%), won't be inclined to rotate the ball.

[mksp]

Offensively, Prokafors are generally weighing individual performance more heavily than the team with him. For instance - in line-ups with Okafor, Noel, and Ish - the team scored 0.965 ppp. In line-ups with Ish and Noel, without Okafor - the team scored 1.057 ppp. So, we'd blame Okafor for that. However, delve deeper and look at their individual numbers in those line-ups.

With trio, 0.965 ppp
Okafor - 67.4 TS%, 11.6 TO% - 1.28 ppp.
Ish - 44.9 TS%, 11.6 TO% - 0.86 ppp.
Noel - 52.7 TS%, 20.5 TO%, 0.88 ppp.

Duo w/o Okafor, 1.057 ppp
Ish - 46.9 TS%, 9.6 TO% - 0.93 ppp
Noel - 59.9 TS%, 13.5 TO% - 1.10 ppp

The issue seems to be Noel, and Ish - to a lesser extent - suffering from the lack of spacing and not so much Okafor himself. So, I wouldn't necessarily blame him for not fitting, he seemed to do well enough, but he was just a bad fit with that roster. Prokafors are hoping that there are better fits that could actually be productive with him, that perhaps aren't as affected as much by him. Perhaps Okafor could even expand his range and open things up for others, as well (Noel doesn't seem likely to).

Okafor could also stop being a blackhole that eats up the shot clock, start passing the ball, set screens, and move without the ball. You know, play team basketball. But evidence suggests he won't.

Duke won the championship with him on the bench. None of this is new.

Playing team basketball is much easier than trying to score unassisted volume of points with efficiency, it's the easier way of doing things so I don't see how Jah can't play team basketball when he's always been a winner. And you can see how he takes losing personally with all those off court stuffs.

Problem really is that we played moneyball offense that on top of turning the ball at a ridiculous rate, we had a high volume of kamikaze drives from spot up shooters with below average passing,dribbling&finishing ability, jacking up ill advised threes while these guys also BLATANTLY allows drives/miss or over rotates that a pure scorer like jah who is also asked to carry their load on D and play at an ill advised pace (jah played faster pace than LeBron) based on personnel (played twin tower) and talent (see team's TO%), won't be inclined to rotate the ball.

Then why doesn't he play team basketball?

Why is the team better with him on the bench on both sides of the court?

Why was he on the bench in the national championship game?

Why does the data AND the eye test suggest the team is better with him off the court?

He's a flashy post player, but there's NOTHING to suggest that he's a "winner" or plays winning basketball at the NBA level.

Hopefully it changes.