Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 6

[Hidden Eye]

Don't see the problem with Yi he has improved a lot since his last NBA stint.

[tontoz]

Don't see the problem with Yi he has improved a lot since his last NBA stint.

Or maybe he just looks better playing against soft competition. Yi is Charmin soft. In the NBA that is a problem.

[willbcocks]

I always thought Yi was just a step too slow doing everything. I have my doubts that getting older would have helped him in this regard.

[Ruzious]

A step slow in the US probably makes him a step fast in China. He's now played in 4 Summer Olympic games. I thought physically he had tremendous ability, but aside from being brutally bad on defense, he wasted his offensive ability taking mid-range jumpers. He couldn't handle both the speed and the physicality of the NBA game. Sprinkle in communication problems. And I got to watch him fail abysmally for both MIlwaukee and Washington.

[verbal8]

It turns out the deal is a vet minimum deal with incentives.

[Hidden Eye]

Don't see the problem with Yi he has improved a lot since his last NBA stint.

Or maybe he just looks better playing against soft competition. Yi is Charmin soft. In the NBA that is a problem.

Just going by Olympics now he can shoot three has decent handles and can play small ball 5 a little. I don't see communication problems now since he is older can speak better English now. For the contract and with Walton it could be a steal. Much better than some of the other contracts handed out.

[tontoz]

Don't see the problem with Yi he has improved a lot since his last NBA stint.

Or maybe he just looks better playing against soft competition. Yi is Charmin soft. In the NBA that is a problem.

Just going by Olympics now he can shoot three has decent handles and can play small ball 5 a little. I don't see communication problems now since he is older can speak better English now. For the contract and with Walton it could be a steal. Much better than some of the other contracts handed out.

The international 3 is closer than the NBA 3. He just can't take any contact at all and can't drive unless going in a straight line.

At best he is a vet min player.

[fishercob]

Ty Lawson signs with the Kings.

Pardon my cynicism, but this move would seem to increase the likelihood of things going bad in Sacramento and Cousins finally demanding a trade.

Lawson hasn't been able to carve out a role for himself in two recent places that needed his skill set -- Houston and Indiana. The fact that he's likely to get a significant role in Sacramento (because they have little talent and depth and PG) indicates that Sacto could be pretty bad. Also, given Lawson's off the court problems and Sacto's tenuous locker room and organizational culture, you do not have to squint to see it going bad.

I sort of feel like the Wizards' only hope is that Cousins orchestrates a trade to DC -- NOT because I am under the impression that Cousins' total (i.e. good + bad) game is anything transformative. I just feel that Beal at his contract is going to be...troublesome, and getting Cousins' on his deal would be a massive mulligan, particularly if we could move Gortat for a productive player. Moving Beal would also thrust Porter forward and I think the team would thrive as a result.

So, yay Ty Lawson signing!

[payitforward]

I hate to see the way Ty Lawson's life and career have gone off track. He was a tremendous college player and a terrific NBA player. I hope he is getting help, and I hope he gets himself together.

If he does, he will be a lot of help to Sacramento -- but even with that, they are likely to be worse not better this year. Their FO hasn't got a clue. They lost their most productive player by far, Rondo - who had a great season last year. Lawson at his best (which would be asking a lot) isn't as good as Rajon Rondo.

I don't know about Cousins demanding a trade, but the word is that the FO thinks he won't re-sign 2 years from now. That means it'd be a good time to trade for him if he was the guy you wanted. They'll take less than they might otherwise want, in order not to lose him for nothing.

The only player of ours I'd build the trade around would be Bradley Beal -- because like Cousins his perceived value exceeds his actual production. I'd certainly give Beal and Morris, and that might do it. I'd play Cousins at the 4, btw.

[payitforward]

I wouldn't give a R1 pick in such a deal. And I wouldn't trade Gortat either. Obviously not Wall if the attraction to keep Cousins is to play with his old buddy (not that we know whether this matters a bit to either of them).

Mahinmi might be an even better piece to use. Mahinmi and Beal for Cousins and Cauley-Stein? That might turn out well; might be something they'd do -- gives them two starters.

Actually... I like that one! We dump two bad contracts, and we get a young big who was quite good as a rookie. Gives us room to extend Porter and W.C-S.

Or... the same thing from us plus Oubre for the same from them plus their next year's #1 pick??

[AFM]

You wouldn't trade Beal and a 1st for Cousins, straight up?

[BudenFerry]

I wouldn't give a R1 pick in such a deal. And I wouldn't trade Gortat either. Obviously not Wall if the attraction to keep Cousins is to play with his old buddy (not that we know whether this matters a bit to either of them).

Mahinmi might be an even better piece to use. Mahinmi and Beal for Cousins and Cauley-Stein? That might turn out well; might be something they'd do -- gives them two starters.

Actually... I like that one! We dump two bad contracts, and we get a young big who was quite good as a rookie. Gives us room to extend Porter and W.C-S.

Or... the same thing from us plus Oubre for the same from them plus their next year's #1 pick??

Bruh....

[Dat2U]

I'd give up the farm for Cousins. Anyone but John Wall. I think the pairing of Wall & Cousins makes both of them better. Cousins has a real PG so he doesn't have to create as many shots for himself and Wall isn't relied upon to be a #1 scoring option (which he often is because Beal is so unreliable). If it takes Porter to get the deal done then so be it. If it takes two 1st rounders then so be it. Wall & Cousins gives you a chance to be better than mediocre. It's not ideal, bur I'm fine with Cousins at PF. I think he's skilled enough to play with Mahinmi or Gortat.

Beal, Porter, Oubre, Burke for Cousins, Gay & McLemore is pretty equal cap wise. Throw in a pick as sweetner if necessary. The Kings don't have a need for a C, even if they deal Cousins with Cauley-Stein, Koufos & Papagiannis on their roster. I think a C would have little value to them unless it was a top level player.

New roster:

Code: Select all

Wall          Satoransky
McLemore      Thornton     
Gay           Eddie         House
Cousins       Morris        Nicholson
Gortat        Mahinmi       Smith

Of course the SG position would be in dire straights & depth at SF & PG would be shaky. The overload in the front court however gives us a good opportunity to balance out the roster by dealing one or more of Gortat, Mahinmi, Morris, Nicholson & Smith to balance out the roster. Plus we'd have the MLE next off-season to add more depth.

[dckingsfan]

I'd give up the farm for Cousins. Anyone but John Wall. I think the pairing of Wall & Cousins makes both of them better. Cousins has a real PG so he doesn't have to create as many shots for himself and Wall isn't relied upon to be a #1 scoring option (which he often is because Beal is so unreliable). If it takes Porter to get the deal done then so be it. If it takes two 1st rounders then so be it. Wall & Cousins gives you a chance to be better than mediocre. It's not ideal, bur I'm fine with Cousins at PF. I think he's skilled enough to play with Mahinmi or Gortat.

Beal, Porter, Oubre, Burke for Cousins, Gay & McLemore is pretty equal cap wise. Throw in a pick as sweetner if necessary. The Kings don't have a need for a C, even if they deal Cousins with Cauley-Stein, Koufos & Papagiannis on their roster. I think a C would have little value to them unless it was a top level player.

New roster:

Code: Select all

Wall         
Satoransky    McLemore      Thornton     
Gay           Eddie         House
Cousins       Morris        Nicholson
Gortat        Mahinmi       Smith

Of course the SG position would be in dire straights & depth at SF & PG would be shaky. The overload in the front court however gives us a good opportunity to balance out the roster by dealing one or more of Gortat, Mahinmi, Morris, Nicholson & Smith to balance out the roster. Plus we'd have the MLE next off-season to add more depth.

I like it... Only thing - Satoransky is a wing. So, it is the PG position where we are really shallow.

[fishercob]

I'd give up the farm for Cousins. Anyone but John Wall. I think the pairing of Wall & Cousins makes both of them better. Cousins has a real PG so he doesn't have to create as many shots for himself and Wall isn't relied upon to be a #1 scoring option (which he often is because Beal is so unreliable). If it takes Porter to get the deal done then so be it. If it takes two 1st rounders then so be it. Wall & Cousins gives you a chance to be better than mediocre. It's not ideal, bur I'm fine with Cousins at PF. I think he's skilled enough to play with Mahinmi or Gortat.

Beal, Porter, Oubre, Burke for Cousins, Gay & McLemore is pretty equal cap wise. Throw in a pick as sweetner if necessary. The Kings don't have a need for a C, even if they deal Cousins with Cauley-Stein, Koufos & Papagiannis on their roster. I think a C would have little value to them unless it was a top level player.

New roster:

Code: Select all

Wall          Satoransky
McLemore      Thornton     
Gay           Eddie         House
Cousins       Morris        Nicholson
Gortat        Mahinmi       Smith

Of course the SG position would be in dire straights & depth at SF & PG would be shaky. The overload in the front court however gives us a good opportunity to balance out the roster by dealing one or more of Gortat, Mahinmi, Morris, Nicholson & Smith to balance out the roster. Plus we'd have the MLE next off-season to add more depth.

I wouldn't make that deal for several reasons.

I am impressed by Cousins' ability, but my enthusiasm is significantly tempered by (a) his massive usage and inefficiency and (b) his significant character questions. The second issue has been a constant throughout his career. Jay Bilas, as even-tempered and non "hot take" an analyst as you'll find, said before the 2010 draft that he had worked with Cousins a bit and simply wouldn't draft him. As recently as this past season, Zach Lowe said on a podcast that there were a myriad of DMC stories he couldn't repeat that painted the picture of him as a complete as$hole.

The hope is that you can take certain steps to mitigate both issues. Cousins has been surrounded by instability in Sacramento. Perhaps if he felt secure and wanted, he wouldn't be an issue. Perhaps working alongside a close friend in John Wall would keep Cousins in line. At the same time, it's always worrisome when you are even talking about keeping one of your star players "in line"; not the type of thing you ever hear about Duncan or KG or Lebron, Durant, Curry, etc. These guys lead -- even if just by example -- and keep others inline.

On the issue of Cousins' productivity, the hope there is that if you surrounded him by talent -- whereby he didn't feel like he had to use every possession -- he'd be more efficient. Objectively, Cousins has played with very little talent in Sacramento, and the roster has been very inconsistent. Other than Cousins, the Kings' leaders in win shares during the DMC era are Isaiah Thomas (foolishly jettisoned after 3 seasons), Jason Thompson, Rudy Gay, and Marcus Thornton!

But you cannot surround Cousins by talent if you trade too much of it to bring him in. You have to be pretty good right away because he's a free agent after next season! The most #SoWizards thing ever would be gutting the roster to deal for DMC, having it go bad right away, and then losing him in free agency.

So here is where I am, imagining it's December 15:

Wizards trade Beal, Gortat
Wizards receive Cousins, Ajinca, Tyreke Evans (exp)

Kings trade: Cousins, McLemore
Kings get: Beal, NOP first rounder top-8 protected1st

Pelicans trade: Evans , Ajinca, top-8 protected first
Pelicans get: Gortat

Why for the the Wizards: They take a "smart gamble" on Cousins by getting younger in the middle and getting out of Beal's contract -- which should get them about $15M under the cap next summer, accounting for Porter's cap hold. They could create more space if they pay someone to take Ajinca and/or Smith (ugh). They'd be far from perfect, but they'd be young and athletic with Wall. Cousins, Porter, Oubre, Morris, Mahinmi and Satoransky. Maybe you can free up enough cap space to add Gallinari. Or maybe go after Mirotic or Patrick Patterson.

Why for the Kings: I know people are screaming "they can get more for Cousins!" Maybe. I think teams are/have been very wary of throwing huge offers for Cousins because of the reasons I laid out above. I also think the Kings front office is dumb and will be lured by Beal's pedigree, marketability, and long term contract as they simultaneously rebuild and move into a new arena. I think they'll say "we can sell Bradley Beal to our fans." Pressure from Cousins' camp is important; he basically needs to be an ass and say "trade me to Washington." Nice, I know.

Why for the Pels: Gortat is a huge talent upgrade for them, and for the price he's much better than they can do in free agency this summer. They were a huge disappointment last year, struck out in free agency, and need a center who can score.


Tl;DR: I'd trade Beal and Gortat for Cousins as a means to get younger, get out of Beal's contract, and create some cap flexibility. Cousins is too big of a risk to gut the roster for.

[Ruzious]

But Jay Bilas' coach did work with Cousins - on the Olympic team... and started him. Coach K is a helluvalot smarter than Bilas, imo. Jay Bilas couldn't stop gushing about Okafor. Okafor will never help an Olympic team win a gold medal. I doubt there's any NBA GM who would rather have Okafor than Cousins.

[fishercob]

But Jay Bilas' coach did work with Cousins - on the Olympic team... and started him. Coach K is a helluvalot smarter than Bilas, imo. Jay Bilas couldn't stop gushing about Okafor. Okafor will never help an Olympic team win a gold medal. I doubt there's any NBA GM who would rather have Okafor than Cousins.

I wasn't saying that Bilas' criticism of Cosuins six years ago is reason enough not to trade for him, rather that the concerns about Cousins' character have been consistent throughout his career. Maybe they are all much ado about nothing, but the fear is smoke = fire and so it just adds a level of risk.

[fishercob]

I hate to see the way Ty Lawson's life and career have gone off track. He was a tremendous college player and a terrific NBA player. I hope he is getting help, and I hope he gets himself together.

If he does, he will be a lot of help to Sacramento -- but even with that, they are likely to be worse not better this year. Their FO hasn't got a clue. They lost their most productive player by far, Rondo - who had a great season last year. Lawson at his best (which would be asking a lot) isn't as good as Rajon Rondo.

I don't know about Cousins demanding a trade, but the word is that the FO thinks he won't re-sign 2 years from now. That means it'd be a good time to trade for him if he was the guy you wanted. They'll take less than they might otherwise want, in order not to lose him for nothing.

The only player of ours I'd build the trade around would be Bradley Beal -- because like Cousins his perceived value exceeds his actual production. I'd certainly give Beal and Morris, and that might do it. I'd play Cousins at the 4, btw.

Can you expound on this? Dat too? I hadn't really considered it because I am admittedly trapped in the paradigm of today's power forward and wondering how the Cousins/Gortat combo could possibly defend small lineups. OTOH, the 4-5 pick and roll can be very effective:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Maybe the Wizards could put a hurting on teams this way -- and on the boards. Plus Cousins shot 33% from 3 last year. Maybe there's upside there to get him up to 36%?

[Ruzious]

I hate to see the way Ty Lawson's life and career have gone off track. He was a tremendous college player and a terrific NBA player. I hope he is getting help, and I hope he gets himself together.

If he does, he will be a lot of help to Sacramento -- but even with that, they are likely to be worse not better this year. Their FO hasn't got a clue. They lost their most productive player by far, Rondo - who had a great season last year. Lawson at his best (which would be asking a lot) isn't as good as Rajon Rondo.

I don't know about Cousins demanding a trade, but the word is that the FO thinks he won't re-sign 2 years from now. That means it'd be a good time to trade for him if he was the guy you wanted. They'll take less than they might otherwise want, in order not to lose him for nothing.

The only player of ours I'd build the trade around would be Bradley Beal -- because like Cousins his perceived value exceeds his actual production. I'd certainly give Beal and Morris, and that might do it. I'd play Cousins at the 4, btw.

Can you expound on this? Dat too? I hadn't really considered it because I am admittedly trapped in the paradigm of today's power forward and wondering how the Cousins/Gortat combo could possibly defend small lineups. OTOH, the 4-5 pick and roll can be very effective:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Maybe the Wizards could put a hurting on teams this way -- and on the boards. Plus Cousins shot 33% from 3 last year. Maybe there's upside there to get him up to 36%?

Gortat and Cousins are both strictly centers, imo. Neither would be effective defending stretch 4's, and both are most effective playing near the hoop - regardless of Cousins' adequate ability to hit the 3.

[Dat2U]

I wouldn't make that deal for several reasons.

I am impressed by Cousins' ability, but my enthusiasm is significantly tempered by (a) his massive usage and inefficiency and (b) his significant character questions. The second issue has been a constant throughout his career. Jay Bilas, as even-tempered and non "hot take" an analyst as you'll find, said before the 2010 draft that he had worked with Cousins a bit and simply wouldn't draft him. As recently as this past season, Zach Lowe said on a podcast that there were a myriad of DMC stories he couldn't repeat that painted the picture of him as a complete as$hole.

The hope is that you can take certain steps to mitigate both issues. Cousins has been surrounded by instability in Sacramento. Perhaps if he felt secure and wanted, he wouldn't be an issue. Perhaps working alongside a close friend in John Wall would keep Cousins in line. At the same time, it's always worrisome when you are even talking about keeping one of your star players "in line"; not the type of thing you ever hear about Duncan or KG or Lebron, Durant, Curry, etc. These guys lead -- even if just by example -- and keep others inline.

On the issue of Cousins' productivity, the hope there is that if you surrounded him by talent -- whereby he didn't feel like he had to use every possession -- he'd be more efficient. Objectively, Cousins has played with very little talent in Sacramento, and the roster has been very inconsistent. Other than Cousins, the Kings' leaders in win shares during the DMC era are Isaiah Thomas (foolishly jettisoned after 3 seasons), Jason Thompson, Rudy Gay, and Marcus Thornton!

But you cannot surround Cousins by talent if you trade too much of it to bring him in. You have to be pretty good right away because he's a free agent after next season! The most #SoWizards thing ever would be gutting the roster to deal for DMC, having it go bad right away, and then losing him in free agency.

So here is where I am, imagining it's December 15:

Wizards trade Beal, Gortat
Wizards receive Cousins, Ajinca, Tyreke Evans (exp)

Kings trade: Cousins, McLemore
Kings get: Beal, NOP first rounder top-8 protected1st

Pelicans trade: Evans , Ajinca, top-8 protected first
Pelicans get: Gortat

Why for the the Wizards: They take a "smart gamble" on Cousins by getting younger in the middle and getting out of Beal's contract -- which should get them about $15M under the cap next summer, accounting for Porter's cap hold. They could create more space if they pay someone to take Ajinca and/or Smith (ugh). They'd be far from perfect, but they'd be young and athletic with Wall. Cousins, Porter, Oubre, Morris, Mahinmi and Satoransky. Maybe you can free up enough cap space to add Gallinari. Or maybe go after Mirotic or Patrick Patterson.

Why for the Kings: I know people are screaming "they can get more for Cousins!" Maybe. I think teams are/have been very wary of throwing huge offers for Cousins because of the reasons I laid out above. I also think the Kings front office is dumb and will be lured by Beal's pedigree, marketability, and long term contract as they simultaneously rebuild and move into a new arena. I think they'll say "we can sell Bradley Beal to our fans." Pressure from Cousins' camp is important; he basically needs to be an ass and say "trade me to Washington." Nice, I know.

Why for the Pels: Gortat is a huge talent upgrade for them, and for the price he's much better than they can do in free agency this summer. They were a huge disappointment last year, struck out in free agency, and need a center who can score.


Tl;DR: I'd trade Beal and Gortat for Cousins as a means to get younger, get out of Beal's contract, and create some cap flexibility. Cousins is too big of a risk to gut the roster for.

I look at it this way, thanks to Ernie "executing the plan", we've effectively locked ourselves into mediocrity for rest of John Wall's contract and pretty much ensured his departure if things remain status quo. There is no doubt this move is risky, but maintaining the current roster is eventually going to lead to rebuilding once Wall leaves. I'd rather fail trying to succeed than fail paralyzed into desperately holding on to making the 8th seed.

Having a little time to think about it, I'd slightly adjust the offer to potentially go after Paul Millsap as well. This is my dream scenario and a little far fetched but not completely out the realm of reality.

Atlanta already knows keeping Millsap after this season is unlikely. He can ask for a salary north of $30 million and they don't seem likely to pay it, especially since he'll be 32 by next offseason. The Hawks already put feelers out on the trade market for Millsap when they were trying to keep Horford. Teams are already inquiring about Millsap as rental and it's very possible the Hawks may choose to get some return for Millsap instead of losing him for nothing next summer. While it's a huge risk based on age & impending free agency, Millsap is a helluva player and is arguably one of the best two way PFs in the league. I'd take the gamble, risk some secondary assets and make every attempt to keep Millsap next offseason even if it means overpaying.

Wizards trade:
Kelly Oubre Jr - they get a young wing with high upside.
Markieff Morris or Andrew Nicholson - a short term serviceable PF to fill-in for Millsap.
Marcin Gortat - A big on a great contract that a team can easily flip - One option would be to Dallas for Andrew Bogut's expiring deal and a minor asset.
2019 1st round pick (lottery protected)
Hawks trade:
Paul Millsap
Mike Muscala
Walter Tavares

Then follow up with the Cousins deal...

Wizards trade:
Bradley Beal
Otto Porter Jr
Trey Burke
2017 1st round pick (top 3 protected)
Kings trade:
DeMarcus Cousins
Rudy Gay
Ben McLemore

New roster

Code: Select all

C DeMarcus Cousins Ian Mahinmi      Jason Smith  Walter Tavares
F Paul Millsap     Andrew Nicholson Mike Muscala
F Rudy Gay         Jarell Eddie     Danuel House
G Ben McLemore     Marcus Thornton
G John Wall        Tomas Satoransky

It's an unbalanced roster but Cousins, Millsap & Wall is one helluva big three. Gay as a fourth option is an ideal spot for him. Defensively the potential of this team would be off the charts. The bench, especially on the perimeter would be very suspect. I'd likely look to deal Mahinmi to address the backup wing position but it's a legitimate contender in the East and a big, physical team that would be a nightmare to match up against in the playoffs. Talent wise they would arguably be the best challenger to a LeBron-led squad that we've seen in the East since the Garnett-Pierce-Allen Celtics more than half a decade ago.