Denver early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Slava/nomansland/eathb_au)

[HartfordWhalers]

Flip held on to Kevin Martin until he had negative value, traded 1sts for win now pieces, and stacked over the hill vets. And there really hasn't been anything to suggest that all of those vets did much. Towns credits KG for being tough, but I haven't heard any real argument for Wiggins gaining from Prince, or Rubio needing Miller etc. Or LaVine benefitting from Martin. Or Payne or Bennett getting any benefit from those vets. I think people crediting stuff on those vets are just making a correlation into a causation and ignoring the opposing correlations that would dispute the notion.

Most of the win-now stuff (holding onto mediocre vets, trading 1sts) has to do with them trying to appease Love, from what I remember.

There were some anonymous quotes in a Lowe article about it a while back. I can't access it cause ESPN is blocked, but it should be easy to find. At the very least, opposing GMs were giving some credit.

They flipped a 1st for Thad while trading Love. It definitely kept up. They didn't move Martin that summer, and signed all those old vets then as well.

Now, I think it is important to note that Glenn Taylor had been trying to sell a stake in he team for a while so staying competitive was most likely a team goal in terms of that. And Glenn Taylor is kinda old, so staying competitive was most likely a team goal in terms of that.

So Flip almost definitely had instructions not to bottom out (and yet did). So, either he pulled the Knicks in 2015 and screwed up being still competitive helping his franchise long term, or he faked that he was trying to stay competitive but the faking cost real assets.

[Andre Roberstan]

Flip held on to Kevin Martin until he had negative value, traded 1sts for win now pieces, and stacked over the hill vets. And there really hasn't been anything to suggest that all of those vets did much. Towns credits KG for being tough, but I haven't heard any real argument for Wiggins gaining from Prince, or Rubio needing Miller etc. Or LaVine benefitting from Martin. Or Payne or Bennett getting any benefit from those vets. I think people crediting stuff on those vets are just making a correlation into a causation and ignoring the opposing correlations that would dispute the notion.

Most of the win-now stuff (holding onto mediocre vets, trading 1sts) has to do with them trying to appease Love, from what I remember.

There were some anonymous quotes in a Lowe article about it a while back. I can't access it cause ESPN is blocked, but it should be easy to find. At the very least, opposing GMs were giving some credit.

They flipped a 1st for Thad while trading Love. It definitely kept up. They didn't move Martin that summer, and signed all those old vets then as well.

Now, I think it is important to note that Glenn Taylor had been trying to sell a stake in he team for a while so staying competitive was most likely a team goal in terms of that. And Glenn Taylor is kinda old, so staying competitive was most likely a team goal in terms of that.

So Flip almost definitely had instructions not to bottom out (and yet did). So, either he pulled the Knicks in 2015 and screwed up being still competitive helping his franchise long term, or he faked that he was trying to stay competitive but the faking cost real assets.

We're probably way OT now, but I'd note that they dealt with significant injury issues over the last few years, particularly with Rubio. Wish ManGamesLost was still free so I could check numbers. And that team has pretty much always fallen apart without Rubio on the floor because the position's been so shallow.

[wablty]

Flip held on to Kevin Martin until he had negative value, traded 1sts for win now pieces, and stacked over the hill vets. And there really hasn't been anything to suggest that all of those vets did much. Towns credits KG for being tough, but I haven't heard any real argument for Wiggins gaining from Prince, or Rubio needing Miller etc. Or LaVine benefitting from Martin. Or Payne or Bennett getting any benefit from those vets. I think people crediting stuff on those vets are just making a correlation into a causation and ignoring the opposing correlations that would dispute the notion.

Most of the win-now stuff (holding onto mediocre vets, trading 1sts) has to do with them trying to appease Love, from what I remember.

There were some anonymous quotes in a Lowe article about it a while back. I can't access it cause ESPN is blocked, but it should be easy to find. At the very least, opposing GMs were giving some credit.

They flipped a 1st for Thad while trading Love. It definitely kept up. They didn't move Martin that summer, and signed all those old vets then as well.

Now, I think it is important to note that Glenn Taylor had been trying to sell a stake in he team for a while so staying competitive was most likely a team goal in terms of that. And Glenn Taylor is kinda old, so staying competitive was most likely a team goal in terms of that.

So Flip almost definitely had instructions not to bottom out (and yet did). So, either he pulled the Knicks in 2015 and screwed up being still competitive helping his franchise long term, or he faked that he was trying to stay competitive but the faking cost real assets.

They weren't trying to tank. The season prior to Love's trade, the Wolves were one of the better teams to miss the playoffs in recent history. It probably should have been a 45-48 win team but for some extraordinarily bad luck/poor play in the last few minutes of games. With their returning roster and some improved depth, it wasn't unreasonable to try to make themselves into a low seed playoff team with some youth upside.

They tripped and fell into the worst record. Rubio got hurt. Pek got hurt. K-Mart got hurt. Bazz got hurt. They didn't start shipping people like Brewer and Mo Williams out until the writing was on the wall.

[HartfordWhalers]

Okay back to Denver. After all Minnesota is in 2 days anyway.

Should Denver trade the following:
Chandler
Faried
Gallo

If so to where and for what?

[Andre Roberstan]

They weren't trying to tank. The season prior to Love's trade, the Wolves were one of the better teams to miss the playoffs in recent history. It probably should have been a 45-48 win team but for some extraordinarily bad luck/poor play in the last few minutes of games. With their returning roster and some improved depth, it wasn't unreasonable to try to make themselves into a low seed playoff team with some youth upside.

They tripped and fell into the worst record. Rubio got hurt. Pek got hurt. K-Mart got hurt. Bazz got hurt. They didn't start shipping people like Brewer and Mo Williams out until the writing was on the wall.

Yeah, they were unbelievably bad at closing out games. Made this year's Jazz look like Game 6 Bron.

[Texas Chuck]

Flip stuff

I don't disagree that he made some mistakes, and that the situation could be even better (or perhaps infinitely worse if they won more games and didn't get Towns). I was just pointing out he definitely plays a role in the current roster, for better and for worse.

[Texas Chuck]

Okay back to Denver. After all Minnesota is in 2 days anyway.

Should Denver trade the following:
Chandler
Faried
Gallo

If so to where and for what?

Yes, yes, and yes (tho I'd be okay with holding onto Gallo)

Chandler to Chicago for Taj Gibson
Faried to the Nets for 2017 IND 2nd (45-60 protected for a while)
I still like Boston for Gallo, but I'm not getting into specifics here...

[Andre Roberstan]

Okay back to Denver. After all Minnesota is in 2 days anyway.

Should Denver trade the following:
Chandler
Faried
Gallo

If so to where and for what?

Faried is the obvious choice—he's not a good fit and it opens up more time for

JUANCHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO



And there's a bit of a SG logjam. Barton should probably be available as a sweetener or value add to bring back another piece.

Honestly, I think all 3 aforementioned players should be on the table. Gallo maybe a bit less because he apparently really likes Denver, and that's pretty valuable for them.

[nomansland]

Okay back to Denver. After all Minnesota is in 2 days anyway.

Should Denver trade the following:
Chandler
Faried
Gallo

If so to where and for what?

Thank you.

Going back to the idea of keeping guys who want to be in Denver and who are good for the organization I don't see Gallo or Chandler being traded this year, unless the team takes a big step backward and Gallo wants out. If Chandler's hip doesn't hold up I could see him retiring.

Faried, however, is probably the main guy they're shopping. I'm guessing they try to turn him into a 1st round pick around the trade deadline. Send him to a playoff team that needs rebounding and energy off the bench. Maybe to someone who lost a key player due to injury and needs replenishments.

[nomansland]

Okay back to Denver. After all Minnesota is in 2 days anyway.

Should Denver trade the following:
Chandler
Faried
Gallo

If so to where and for what?

Yes, yes, and yes (tho I'd be okay with holding onto Gallo)

Chandler to Chicago for Taj Gibson
Faried to the Nets for 2017 IND 2nd (45-60 protected for a while)
I still like Boston for Gallo, but I'm not getting into specifics here...

Wow. If that's all they get for Faried I'd be extremely disappointed. They got more for Lawson.

[eathb_au]

Yeah Faried should fetch more than Lawson and Afflalo did.

[HartfordWhalers]

Yeah Faried should fetch more than Lawson and Afflalo did.

I would be impressed if he got what Afflalo got.

[Old Man Game]

Denver is my favorite up and coming roster. They are still flying under the radar while everyone focuses on Minnesota (and a lesser extent even Philly). Hitting on Jokic in the second round has allowed them to leap frog a year or so ahead of the typical draft rebuild process.

Sent from my KFFOWI using RealGM mobile app

[jazzfan1971]

Denver is my favorite up and coming roster. They are still flying under the radar while everyone focuses on Minnesota (and a lesser extent even Philly). Hitting on Jokic in the second round has allowed them to leap frog a year or so ahead of the typical draft rebuild process.

Sent from my KFFOWI using RealGM mobile app

I equally like them, dislike them, and have no idea what they are doing.

How's that for being decisive?

I like them because I think they have a nice stable of guys. I actually think they could probably will surpass the concensus win totals given here by a fair amount. I think they'll push for a playoff bid, and be in the running right up til the end.

I dislike them because they just seem treadmilly to me. Old Man Game here has them as an 'up and comer' I have them more as a 'will peak soon then plateau' team.

And I have no idea what they are doing other than maybe just trying to build an asset pool and hope for a trade down the road.

So, put me as high on them this year, but low on them long term. I see them churning for a while unless someone like Mudiay takes a big, really big, step forward.

[Old Man Game]

Denver is my favorite up and coming roster. They are still flying under the radar while everyone focuses on Minnesota (and a lesser extent even Philly). Hitting on Jokic in the second round has allowed them to leap frog a year or so ahead of the typical draft rebuild process.

Sent from my KFFOWI using RealGM mobile app

I equally like them, dislike them, and have no idea what they are doing.

How's that for being decisive?

I like them because I think they have a nice stable of guys. I actually think they could probably will surpass the concensus win totals given here by a fair amount. I think they'll push for a playoff bid, and be in the running right up til the end.

I dislike them because they just seem treadmilly to me. Old Man Game here has them as an 'up and comer' I have them more as a 'will peak soon then plateau' team.

And I have no idea what they are doing other than maybe just trying to build an asset pool and hope for a trade down the road.

So, put me as high on them this year, but low on them long term. I see them churning for a while unless someone like Mudiay takes a big, really big, step forward.

I do agree that Mudiay developing into at least a solid starter to above average PG is key to their long term prospects.

[RexRyan]

Good offseason regarding direction - there seems to be a path here..... load up on youth and develop. I like it. A-

[torotoe]

We'll see them break 40 wins this year. If I'm wrong y'all can quote me and make fun of me as soon as they get to 42 losses.

Mudiay has to be good though. He put together a nice post asb split, so he's moving in the right direction.

[nomansland]

Denver is my favorite up and coming roster. They are still flying under the radar while everyone focuses on Minnesota (and a lesser extent even Philly). Hitting on Jokic in the second round has allowed them to leap frog a year or so ahead of the typical draft rebuild process.

Sent from my KFFOWI using RealGM mobile app

I equally like them, dislike them, and have no idea what they are doing.

How's that for being decisive?

I like them because I think they have a nice stable of guys. I actually think they could probably will surpass the concensus win totals given here by a fair amount. I think they'll push for a playoff bid, and be in the running right up til the end.

I dislike them because they just seem treadmilly to me. Old Man Game here has them as an 'up and comer' I have them more as a 'will peak soon then plateau' team.

And I have no idea what they are doing other than maybe just trying to build an asset pool and hope for a trade down the road.

So, put me as high on them this year, but low on them long term. I see them churning for a while unless someone like Mudiay takes a big, really big, step forward.

Here's what I think they're doing:

- They say they want to make the playoffs this year (like every team does) but I think secretly 2017-2018 is when they *really* want to be there. Expect major changes if the team doesn't get there in 2018.
- They definitely expect improvement from their youngsters. Not just Mudiay, but Harris, Jokic, Nurkic, Murray and Hernangomez too. That plus 2 more draft picks next year (one of which is probably a lottery pick), a bevvy of 2nd rounders and awesome European scouting means the talent pool shouldn't plateau in the near term.
- They are using their assets in trade talks and are quietly exploring options and making offers. The owners are notorious for wanting to keep deals under wraps until they're done, so just because we don't see much in the news, it doesn't mean nothing's going on beneath the surface. For example, one rumor is they *almost* got Milsap in a trade this summer but nobody knew it was in the works.
- They're saving cap space so they can make a run at a key FA next year. Not that any of these players is likely to happen but ones I bet are on their radar include Griffin, Hayward, Milsap and Ibaka.