Assets Battle: Nuggets vs Suns

[DeathLineup]

Assuming both teams are willing to trade any of their players and picks to get a talent, which team could package the better offer?

Notable players:
> Nuggets: Gallinari, Barton, Mudiay, Murray, Jokic
> Suns: Bledsoe, Len, Bender, Chriss, Booker

Notable picks:
> Nuggets: 2017 Nuggets 1st, 2017 Memphis 1st (Top 5 protected), 2018 Nuggets 1st
> Suns: 2017 Suns 1st, 2018 Miami 1st (Top 7 protected), 2018 Suns 1st

[torotoe]

Assuming both teams are willing to trade any of their players and picks to get a talent, which team could package the better offer?

Notable players:
> Nuggets: Gallinari, Barton, Mudiay, Murray, Jokic
> Suns: Bledsoe, Len, Bender, Chriss, Booker

Notable picks:
> Nuggets: 2017 Nuggets 1st, 2017 Memphis 1st (Top 5 protected), 2018 Nuggets 1st
> Suns: 2017 Suns 1st, 2018 Miami 1st (Top 7 protected), 2018 Suns 1st

It's tough to say, but I went Nuggets. Jokic is the most valuable player or pick from either squad, so that's the trump (lol, trump) card. You left out a ton of assets on Denver. Nurkic, Harris, Beasley, Hernangomez. Arthur and Chandler, even Faried.

Obviously, the suns are way behind the nuggets, which means their picks are going to be much more valuable. So that's the comparison. Denver's talent now, or PHX's picks.

[nomansland]

Assuming both teams are willing to trade any of their players and picks to get a talent, which team could package the better offer?

Notable players:
> Nuggets: Gallinari, Barton, Mudiay, Murray, Jokic
> Suns: Bledsoe, Len, Bender, Chriss, Booker

Notable picks:
> Nuggets: 2017 Nuggets 1st, 2017 Memphis 1st (Top 5 protected), 2018 Nuggets 1st
> Suns: 2017 Suns 1st, 2018 Miami 1st (Top 7 protected), 2018 Suns 1st

I would certainly consider Nurkic a notable asset, especially if you're going to put Len in there.

Furthermore I'm not sure how to determine "notable" but when thinking about assets and maybe being a homer, I would also add Faried and Chandler on Denver's side and in fairness I'd add Knight on Phoenix' side.

So, again maybe being a homer but when you add the new information it pretty easily tilts the balance in Denver's favor. Better picks, better vets, arguably equal or better young talent and more of it.

[MoneyTalks41890]

I think Booker is the best asset on either side but I still went Nuggets because I don't have Jokic far behind and the rest of the comp leans heavily Denver.

[NuggetsWY]

I think Booker is the best asset on either side but I still went Nuggets because I don't have Jokic far behind and the rest of the comp leans heavily Denver.

Homer leaning on Booker? Maybe. Only time will tell.
I'll agree with an above post putting Jokic as the best asset. Homer leaning? Maybe but it's easier to find good SGs than good centers. Unless Booker becomes a perennial all-star (very hard to do), then he is not more valuable than a comparable center. Then again, Jokic hasn't proven yet what his level will be. Isn't youth fun to compare? Everyone claims theirs is the best. LOL

I'm a Nuggets fan, all the way, but I can't see how anyone can say the Nuggets don't have more assets. Hard to believe at this point. If you say Booker & Jokic cancel each other out, then walk down the line, the Nuggets' line is a lot longer.

[SideSwipe]

I think Booker is the best asset on either side but I still went Nuggets because I don't have Jokic far behind and the rest of the comp leans heavily Denver.

Homer leaning on Booker? Maybe. Only time will tell.
I'll agree with an above post putting Jokic as the best asset. Homer leaning? Maybe but it's easier to find good SGs than good centers. Unless Booker becomes a perennial all-star (very hard to do), then he is not more valuable than a comparable center. Then again, Jokic hasn't proven yet what his level will be. Isn't youth fun to compare? Everyone claims theirs is the best. LOL

I'm a Nuggets fan, all the way, but I can't see how anyone can say the Nuggets don't have more assets. Hard to believe at this point. If you say Booker & Jokic cancel each other out, then walk down the line, the Nuggets' line is a lot longer.

I think it's close, but PHX by a hair. For one the above statement regarding shooting guards is not true right now. True shooting guards is the least common skillset in the league right now. There are not that many elite ones out there. For now there are more centers better than Jokic than there are Shooting guards better than Booker, and that raises trade value for Booker. Right now shooting is the most coveted commodity, and there are not that many real shooters in the league. That scarcity raises value. Jokic's best value so far as I can see is his BBIQ, which looks really good. For now though he posted numbers that were less than Kanter (only two years older than Jokic) in similar minutes for comparison, and there is a long list of young, big men that are great including Towns, Okafor, Drummond, Valanciunas, Gobert, Noel, Davis (maybe PF), Zinger (maybe PF) and many others including Len from PHX And that's just the young ones. Historically speaking I think Jokic might have been more rare, but right now Booker is the more rare. For a shooting guard his numbers in PPG, and TS% put him in top 10 or 11 SG's in the league- young or old- that said his defense is still lacking.

Also to the comment above that the line of talent on DEN may be right, but much of that talent is frought with injury history/ contract risk(Gallo, Chandler, Faried, Nurkic), which will dampen trade value. PHX has some too(Bledsoe, maybe Dudley, maybe Chandler), but not as much anymore IMO. Also the asset list left off the 2nd MIA #1 pick which PHX has years out (2020-21) and is unprotected.

[NuggetsWY]

I think Booker is the best asset on either side but I still went Nuggets because I don't have Jokic far behind and the rest of the comp leans heavily Denver.

Homer leaning on Booker? Maybe. Only time will tell.
I'll agree with an above post putting Jokic as the best asset. Homer leaning? Maybe but it's easier to find good SGs than good centers. Unless Booker becomes a perennial all-star (very hard to do), then he is not more valuable than a comparable center. Then again, Jokic hasn't proven yet what his level will be. Isn't youth fun to compare? Everyone claims theirs is the best. LOL

I'm a Nuggets fan, all the way, but I can't see how anyone can say the Nuggets don't have more assets. Hard to believe at this point. If you say Booker & Jokic cancel each other out, then walk down the line, the Nuggets' line is a lot longer.

I think it's close, but PHX by a hair. For one the above statement regarding shooting guards is not true right now. True shooting guards is the least common skillset in the league right now. There are not that many elite ones out there. For now there are more centers better than Jokic than there are Shooting guards better than Booker, and that raises trade value for Booker. Right now shooting is the most coveted commodity, and there are not that many real shooters in the league. That scarcity raises value. Jokic's best value so far as I can see is his BBIQ, which looks really good. For now though he posted numbers that were less than Kanter (only two years older than Jokic) in similar minutes for comparison, and there is a long list of young, big men that are great including Towns, Okafor, Drummond, Valanciunas, Gobert, Noel, Davis (maybe PF), Zinger (maybe PF) and many others including Len from PHX And that's just the young ones. Historically speaking I think Jokic might have been more rare, but right now Booker is the more rare. For a shooting guard his numbers in PPG, and TS% put him in top 10 or 11 SG's in the league- young or old- that said his defense is still lacking.

Also to the comment above that the line of talent on DEN may be right, but much of that talent is frought with injury history/ contract risk(Gallo, Chandler, Faried, Nurkic), which will dampen trade value. PHX has some too(Bledsoe, maybe Dudley, maybe Chandler), but not as much anymore IMO. Also the asset list left off the 2nd MIA #1 pick which PHX has years out (2020-21) and is unprotected.

You make some excellent points. Not sure Booker is elite yet either, but he sure looks like he'll be there, that's for sure. There are a lot of young SGs that people rank ahead of Booker. I just checked several "Top 20" type lists and Booker isn't there, but I'd take Booker over some of their choices. Some I would not take Booker over would be Thompson, Butler, McCollum, Middleton, maybe some others. #5 seems a little high but I like two way players and while Booker is a little bit on the light side, he's still maturing. So I discount players like Harden (no defense) and DeRozan who is one of the best 2 pt shooters but doesn't do well at 3s. Some other top SGs have to also include Wade, Wiggins and some more. I think I'd keep Booker in my top 15, maybe higher with a huge upside.

I'd say most of the "centers" better than Jokic are really PFs but that's the way the league is going, so I see where you are coming from. I'll stick with Jokic for my choice. I'd give the nod to Cousins (talent but don't want him), Drumond, Towns probably, probably including Valanciunas & Gobert. Noel & Okafor haven't proved much in my opinion. So I guess I'm listing Jokic at #6 for centers. I'm not sure he's that good, but I'm considering potential. So some of the other young players that I don't call "better" might turn out to be better - that's the homer in me.

Maybe which is better depends on the rest of the team. Denver doesn't need a shoot guard and the subconscious remembers that. Let's see, would me-as-a-GM trade Booker for Harris, sure. Would Denver? No. How much would Denver have to give me if I were the Suns' GM? Probably more than they'd want to give.

[damecurry]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

[eathb_au]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

I thought exactly the same thing but was waiting for a non Nuggets fan to point it out.

[The Rebel]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

Booker had some great games that were hyped by the people who saw it, Jokic flew under the radar for most of the season.

[gaspar]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

You should watch more Booker's games from last year. I know that these kind of comments are frown upon here, but this is really the only way to realize what a great talent Devin Booker really is. When you look at his stats they aren't that impressive, but you have to remember that he was the youngest player in the league last year. Booker in his final game of his 2nd season in the league will still be younger than Jokic on his NBA debut. It makes a huge difference at this young age. Booker also had to shoulder a much bigger responsibility than Jokic in their rookie seasons. It was also a completely new role for him.

Read on Twitter

Considering the circumstances (young age, new role, very little talent around him, coaching changes etc.) he showed great promise during his rookie season, much more than you would think just by looking at his stats. And even then you can find some stats that show that he's an elite talent.

- 4th youngest player to reach 1,000 career points (following LeBron, Durant, Kobe),
- 3rd youngest player in NBA history to score 30 points (LeBron, Durant),
- 2nd teenager in NBA history with back-to-back 30+ point games (LeBron),
- 5th youngest player in NBA history to record a double-double (LeBron, Bynum, Giannis, MKG),
- 2nd youngest player in NBA history to record a points-assists double-double (LeBron),
- 2nd youngest player in NBA history with multiple points-assists double-doubles (LeBron),
- the youngest player in NBA history to make 6+ 3-pointers in a game,
- the youngest player to participate in a three-point contest, where he finished 3rd only behind Klay and Curry.

[gaspar]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

Booker had some great games that were hyped by the people who saw it, Jokic flew under the radar for most of the season.

Saying that Jokic flew under the radar is really out of place, considering that he finished 3rd in the Rookie of the Year voting and in this very thread we have posters who claim that he's #6 center in the league or "one of the best players in the league" and "has elite offensive ability".

[DeathLineup]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

The thing about Booker against Jokic is that Booker plays in a position that only has very few great young talents. Meanwhile the talent pool for great young center in NBA is freaking deep right now.

As for the other factors, the margin is not that far off. Bender is a top 5 pick and Chriss was a legit candidate for Celtics 3rd pick. Len showed some good games during the late part of last season. Bledsoe is an above average starting point guard. Suns assets are no scrubs.

[kriss73]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

I thought exactly the same thing but was waiting for a non Nuggets fan to point it out.

Here I am too.

For context: http://nyloncalculus.com/2016/08/23/towns-porzingis-jokic-expectations-rookies/ : impressive.

Booker is young and has room to improve. But Jokic too.
Imho they are not in the same tier, neither as players today neither as "assets".

[Patsfan1081]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

How many rookies come in and shoot 40% from three on decent attempts? 35% isn't bad for a rookie, especially one who was the youngest kid in his draft class and who took on most of the offense for the team after those injuries. I put him just ahead of Jokic also, not taking away from his talent but it's easier to have more efficient numbers when you're not playing big minutes every night. I would like to see Jokic play thirty a night for a full season befor I label him a future star, Monroe had identical numbers and efficiency his rookie season and never really ended up developing much further, especially on defense. Denver overall has better young talent and have had better scouting when it comes to picks later in the draft. I like Murray better than Bender or Chriss.

[Patsfan1081]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

The thing about Booker against Jokic is that Booker plays in a position that only has very few great young talents. Meanwhile the talent pool for great young center in NBA is freaking deep right now.

As for the other factors, the margin is not that far off. Bender is a top 5 pick and Chriss was a legit candidate for Celtics 3rd pick. Len showed some good games during the late part of last season. Bledsoe is an above average starting point guard. Suns assets are no scrubs.

I don't think Boston was ever considering Chriss , I think he was one of the most overrated players in the draft. The Suns would have killed it in my opinion if they got Bender and a shooter.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

MFW when neither "TJ" nor "Warren" shows up when I Ctrl+F:

Let's revisit this conversation in a year, shall we?

[damecurry]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

Booker had some great games that were hyped by the people who saw it, Jokic flew under the radar for most of the season.

Saying that Jokic flew under the radar is really out of place, considering that he finished 3rd in the Rookie of the Year voting and in this very thread we have posters who claim that he's #6 center in the league or "one of the best players in the league" and "has elite offensive ability".

No-one said one of the best in the league, I said by metrics he was last season, simply a statistical fact. Where he ranks amongst centers will be really interesting to see this year, last year was a very small sample size and no-one knew he was capable of this stuff headed into the season so maybe they'll lock down on him in a larger role and he won't be as great. Or maybe he's just this great. In either case he certainly flew under the radar early on in the season as a 2nd rounder from 2014 coming in no-one expected this stuff, by the end of the season it was impossible to ignore what he was doing though so yes he was on the radar by then.

[damecurry]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

The thing about Booker against Jokic is that Booker plays in a position that only has very few great young talents. Meanwhile the talent pool for great young center in NBA is freaking deep right now.

As for the other factors, the margin is not that far off. Bender is a top 5 pick and Chriss was a legit candidate for Celtics 3rd pick. Len showed some good games during the late part of last season. Bledsoe is an above average starting point guard. Suns assets are no scrubs.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. I'm very attune to positional disparities in the league and seem to value positional scarcity more than most, have been criticized for doing so, but there is a limit. CJ is not more valuable than Gobert just because he's a 2 and Rudy's a 5. Rudy has proven, when healthy, he is a DPOY level player and fulfills that skillset better than maybe anyone else playing the game right now. CJ has proven he's a really good scorer and secondary creator, nothing more. In this case, again, I need some explanation for the presumption that booker is a "great young talent" himself. Because no matter how scarce the position is, if you're just not that great of a player than you aren't going to be as valuable someone significantly better. Jokic has shown wayyy more thus far, Devin had a good season where he scored a lot on solid efficiency but didn't do a whole lot else and his metrics where sh**, mainly due to poor defense. He looked like a promising young player with a long ways to go who may or may not ever get there. Jokic looked like an elite player in this league with nowhere to go but up. Just cause Booker plays the rarer position does not begin to compensate for that difference.

And I wanted to do this anyway so here's how I think the other assets stack up:
Bledsoe > Gallo (because he's locked in but it's still close imo)
Mudiay > Bender
Murray > Chriss (whom draftexpress had going at 4 cause they hated bender and him at the end of top 10, but no-one talked about chriss as a candidate for the 3rd pick that I saw, consensus by draft time was that should have been Dunn, not bender or chriss)
Harris > TJ Warren
Nurkic > / = Len
Hernangomez > ?

And so on. Denver has more assets too. The only argument that phoenix is even on this level is the one someone made earlier that they are further away from being a good team and thus their picks over the next few years are worth considerably more. But given the talent Denver has already accumulated, unless phoenix is like bottom 3 this year and can grab Harry Giles or something Idk, I just don't think they're close in terms of total assets. Denver is pretty clearly ahead of most teams, maybe top 5 or 8 in the league. Phoenix is more middle of the road till we see how their picks work over the next couple years.

[nomansland]

Someone really needs ro help me out with the evaluation of booker as an elite asset. Hes not a great defender and doesnt project as one and he shot like 35% on 3s right? What am i missing? Jokic was one of the best players in the league by most metrics, he has elite offensive ability, the versatility to play 4 or 5 while bookers a straight two, they are not comparable in my mind. And denver easily crushes phoenix in almost all other compa and just has more guys, this really isnt a discussion in my mind.

Booker had some great games that were hyped by the people who saw it, Jokic flew under the radar for most of the season.

Saying that Jokic flew under the radar is really out of place, considering that he finished 3rd in the Rookie of the Year voting and in this very thread we have posters who claim that he's #6 center in the league or "one of the best players in the league" and "has elite offensive ability".

The voting happened after the season though, and Jokic didn't really start getting good minutes until after the ASB. Plus that Olympic outing against the US got everyone's attention.

Watch. This year teams will try to deny him spots on the floor, especially the high post, they will be looking for his passes, they will do a better job keeping him off the glass, and they will try to draw him away from the paint on D making it easier for him to get taken off the dribble.

2nd year players who had good rookie seasons always face increased scrutiny and it's why a lot of players are said to have a sophomore slump. (It could happen to Booker too btw.) I hope Jokic has the fortitude to overcome it.