Big men and the 3pt shot...

[RCM88x]

Over the past few seasons, we've seen a few interior based big men attempt to transition to a more perimeter based game that favors shooting more 3 point shots.

Some examples are Serge Ibaka, who went from only 3 3pt attempts in the 2012 season, to 205 3pt shot attempts in the 2015 season. We also have Anthony Davis, who went from 12 3pt attempts in 2015, to a staggering 108 in 2016. Then the biggest offender on the list, is DeMarcus Cousins, who in 2015 only attempted 8 3pt shots, but in 2016 had a shocking 208 attempts from 3.

So what are people's opinion on this? Almost across the board, we see big men who attempt more 3pt shots average fewer blocks and rebounds than their more interior based self. So is a big man who can shoot the 3, worth giving up the blocks and rebounds that come with the interior game? None of the guys I mentioned saw a massive jump in scoring and all of them saw decreases in PER and true shooting percentage. Or is the game so dependent on spacing, that a 3pt shot is required for all offensive players in today's game?

Personally, I can't stand it. Taking moving a great interior defender like AD on the perimeter isn't going to make him a better player, its trading a strength for something they are just average at.

I'd be interested to hear the argument people who are for these guys attempting more 3pt shots, if they even exist.

[-Sammy-]

What I find interesting about this topic is that for years, I felt like Dirk N. was overrated, and I was critical of him for this very reason: that he was sacrificing his natural gift of size to be a jump shooter instead of changing his game to provide something more rare and valuable to his team (rebounding, interior play, etc.)

Obviously, I was dead wrong, but Dirk has been an incomparable offensive player, so the 'normal' criticisms don't apply to him. For most of these guys, it feels like they're abandoning the traditional big-man responsibilities just for the sake of 'expanding' their games. The problems are that the game doesn't really demand it, none of them are actually becoming deadeye shooters in the process, and it doesn't seem to be helping their teams.

[Quotatious]

Well, I think some guys who have the ability to score inside on a consistent basis, suffer a bit if they start shooting threes instead of getting inside for high percentage looks. Al Horford is probably the best example - he started shooting threes on a pretty high volume for a bigman - over 3 attempts per game, but he shot a slightly below average percentage - 34.4% - which isn't horrible by any means, but it's not particularly good, either, and he's a guy who can score inside, has that fundamentally sound post game, and he's a good passer (I've always considered him a poor man's Duncan), so IMO he would've benefitted more from trying to score from the post. He's never been good at drawing fouls (career-high is 3.3 FTAs per game for a season, really bad for an all-star bigman), but last season, he averaged a career-low 1.6, even though he's still in his prime.

Personally, I'm more old school - I like to see bigs (especially guys like Horford who are actually skilled and have good size) playing inside, if they are not natural floor spacers like Dirk, Love, Channing Frye etc., which Horford is not. If you are not a 40% three-point shooter (or at least 37-38%) as a bigman, I think you could probably make a bigger impact inside. Josh Smith chucking 3 or 4 threes per game at below 30% was a real nightmare, and he was doing that even when he was a good player, basically reduced his own value with those boneheaded shots.

[Bergmaniac]

Personally, I can't stand it. Taking moving a great interior defender like AD on the perimeter isn't going to make him a better player, its trading a strength for something they are just average at.

...Almost across the board, we see big men who attempt more 3pt shots average fewer blocks and rebounds than their more interior based self. So is a big man who can shoot the 3, worth giving up the blocks and rebounds that come with the interior game?

I don't get this. Why would taking more 3s make a player a worse rim protector (unless he changes his position which neither of your examples did)? There is no connection whatsoever.

[JonFromVA]

IMO, it's a case by case thing, but being able to knock down a J is valuable for any player. Being able to do it out to the 3pt line depends on the teams need for more floor spacing, and whether the player in question is actually good enough to spread the floor, or just good enough to knock down the occasional 3pter.

The bottom line isn't TS%, or blocks, or rebounds, or fouls draw ... it's the sum of all that: group ORtg-DRtg.

[RCM88x]

Personally, I can't stand it. Taking moving a great interior defender like AD on the perimeter isn't going to make him a better player, its trading a strength for something they are just average at.

...Almost across the board, we see big men who attempt more 3pt shots average fewer blocks and rebounds than their more interior based self. So is a big man who can shoot the 3, worth giving up the blocks and rebounds that come with the interior game?

I don't get this. Why would taking more 3s make a player a worse rim protector (unless he changes his position which neither of your examples did)? There is no connection whatsoever.

Well that's the thing, one would expect a player being on the perimeter more on offense, wouldn't effect their defensive rim-protection. But, on all the cases I listed (except for Cousins who isn't really a rim-protector at the level the other two guys are), their blocks went down. All of these guys had an increase in Drtg as well, so there must be a connection. Perhaps its just random correlation, but it seems that big guys playing on the perimeter offensively huts a team defensively.

Perhaps its fatigue of having to move around more on offense, and an increased likely hood of being switched onto a perimeter player in transition. I'm not really sure what the cause is, but it seems to be the case.

[teerfour+40LG]

Resting at the 3PT line on offense should only have positive effects on their more important jobs, defense and defensive rebounding.

[Bergmaniac]

Regarding Ibaka, his offensive game before he developed the 3 pt shot was mostly based on taking long 2s. And he's always had a dreaful low post game. Also the Thunder badly needed more spacing since they played a starting shooting guard who isn't much of a shooter (Thabo and later Roberson) and Westbrook isn't much of a 3 pt shooter either. So in his case it made perfect sense IMO.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Can't stand it, and one of the ugliest parts of junkification of today's game.

A lot of it is not being driven by players though. Front office geeks --> hire uptempo smallball coaches --> have no clue what to do with a big, so try to play them like a little guy. Once upon a time we laughed at Nellie for the same problem throughout his career. Now we see guys like Gentry and Karl taking the best bigs in the game today and trying to play them like wing players. Its SMH.

I watch Cousins a lot, so I'm hoping this swings back the other way with Joerger taking over for Karl. And I think Thibs and Malone may keep a lid on it happening to KAT in Minny or Jokic in Denver. But this is a culture thing, and ever since everybody wanted to lick the Warriors boots, a bunch of teams have forgotten what to do with big guys. The centers have it bad enough. But there is an all out war on the "power" forward spot, once one of the glamour spots of the league, now being swallowed up by roleplaying tweeners.

[tsherkin]

Depends on the player. A roleplayer? Sure. Adds spacing, it's good. Ibaka isn't good below the arc anyway, for example, and offensive rebounding is deprecated for most teams in favor of transition defense, so interior presence is less relevant.

For Cousins, it drives me batty and Karl is a moron.

[YogurtProducer]

Can't stand it, and one of the ugliest parts of junkification of today's game.

A lot of it is not being driven by players though. Front office geeks --> hire uptempo smallball coaches --> have no clue what to do with a big, so try to play them like a little guy. Once upon a time we laughed at Nellie for the same problem throughout his career. Now we see guys like Gentry and Karl taking the best bigs in the game today and trying to play them like wing players. Its SMH.

I watch Cousins a lot, so I'm hoping this swings back the other way with Joerger taking over for Karl. And I think Thibs and Malone may keep a lid on it happening to KAT in Minny or Jokic in Denver. But this is a culture thing, and ever since everybody wanted to lick the Warriors boots, a bunch of teams have forgotten what to do with big guys. The centers have it bad enough. But there is an all out war on the "power" forward spot, once one of the glamour spots of the league, now being swallowed up by roleplaying tweeners.

Honestly it's weird you being up Jokic or KAT considering they both already shoot 1.1 3's per game. They both will probably increase that because it's a natural part of their game already

[Prez]

Personally, I can't stand it. Taking moving a great interior defender like AD on the perimeter isn't going to make him a better player, its trading a strength for something they are just average at.

...Almost across the board, we see big men who attempt more 3pt shots average fewer blocks and rebounds than their more interior based self. So is a big man who can shoot the 3, worth giving up the blocks and rebounds that come with the interior game?

I don't get this. Why would taking more 3s make a player a worse rim protector (unless he changes his position which neither of your examples did)? There is no connection whatsoever.

Well that's the thing, one would expect a player being on the perimeter more on offense, wouldn't effect their defensive rim-protection. But, on all the cases I listed (except for Cousins who isn't really a rim-protector at the level the other two guys are), their blocks went down. All of these guys had an increase in Drtg as well, so there must be a connection. Perhaps its just random correlation, but it seems that big guys playing on the perimeter offensively huts a team defensively.

Perhaps its fatigue of having to move around more on offense, and an increased likely hood of being switched onto a perimeter player in transition. I'm not really sure what the cause is, but it seems to be the case.

I think it's just a coincidence. Ibaka is likely older than listed and his athleticism has been declining, he's pretty clearly on a downward trend in that respect imo. Davis just had a down year, he was on a terrible team with a new coaching staff, new style of play, etc.

[Warriorfan]

Teams are going with one big on the floor these days.
If your big can hit the 3 at a decent rate the only rim protector on the floor gets pulled from the basket and layups get converted at a high efficient rate.

I like the better flow, spacing, and transition of current game. There are far more 6'5-6'7 multifaceted basketball players than 7 foot ones who are also more injury prone. Complex zone defense makes it harder for traditional bigs.

[Skyhawk1]

I I do not like idea of bigs shooting 3s. It kills offensive rebounding putting a lot of pressure on you D in transition. Problem is, the league is full of limited 7fters on the offensive end like Adams, Valanciunas, Bogut, Mozgov, Sullinger, Pachulia that can not do any damage on the offensive so those bigs who can shoot can get away with it cause they barely work on the defensive end.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Can't stand it, and one of the ugliest parts of junkification of today's game.

A lot of it is not being driven by players though. Front office geeks --> hire uptempo smallball coaches --> have no clue what to do with a big, so try to play them like a little guy. Once upon a time we laughed at Nellie for the same problem throughout his career. Now we see guys like Gentry and Karl taking the best bigs in the game today and trying to play them like wing players. Its SMH.

I watch Cousins a lot, so I'm hoping this swings back the other way with Joerger taking over for Karl. And I think Thibs and Malone may keep a lid on it happening to KAT in Minny or Jokic in Denver. But this is a culture thing, and ever since everybody wanted to lick the Warriors boots, a bunch of teams have forgotten what to do with big guys. The centers have it bad enough. But there is an all out war on the "power" forward spot, once one of the glamour spots of the league, now being swallowed up by roleplaying tweeners.

Honestly it's weird you being up Jokic or KAT considering they both already shoot 1.1 3's per game. They both will probably increase that because it's a natural part of their game already

KAT has a real coach now.

It will always be there in Jokic's game. I just don't think Malone will allow it to become an infestation which wipes out his inside play.

[tsherkin]

I I do not like idea of bigs shooting 3s. It kills offensive rebounding putting a lot of pressure on you D in transition. Problem is, the league is full of limited 7fters on the offensive end like Adams, Valanciunas, Bogut, Mozgov, Sullinger, Pachulia that can not do any damage on the offensive so those bigs who can shoot can get away with it cause they barely work on the defensive end.

Excuse you, but Valanciunas is not limited offensively. Defensively, yes. Otherwise, neat post.

[Mirjalovic]

I I do not like idea of bigs shooting 3s. It kills offensive rebounding putting a lot of pressure on you D in transition. Problem is, the league is full of limited 7fters on the offensive end like Adams, Valanciunas, Bogut, Mozgov, Sullinger, Pachulia that can not do any damage on the offensive so those bigs who can shoot can get away with it cause they barely work on the defensive end.

Valanciunas, Bogut, Mozgov, Sullinger have decent offensive games, especially Valanciunas. You took the wrong samples. Lets talk about Kwame, Biyombo and such.

[SweetBro]

A lot of these 3's in the case of Towns and Cousins come from them trailing in transition after fighting for a defensive board, which is a pretty damn nifty tool to have in your game. Also, these guys can keep the d guessing when they screen at the top of the key, as they are liable to pop or roll. I don't see any reason to be a curmudgeon about elite bigs improving their range.

[RCM88x]

A lot of these 3's in the case of Towns and Cousins come from them trailing in transition after fighting for a defensive board, which is a pretty damn nifty tool to have in your game. Also, these guys can keep the d guessing when they screen at the top of the key, as they are liable to pop or roll. I don't see any reason to be a curmudgeon about elite bigs improving their range.

Yes, in theory. But almost every one of these guys has a lower PER in seasons where they attempt a higher number of 3s. Would you trade a 3pt shot for a worse overall player? Guess it might depend on a lot of factors, but as a center, you can have 4 other guys that space the floor that are more natural fits for perimeter games than 7ft players.

Does every player need to be a floor spacer? In my opinon no, Cav's won with TT who took like 1 shot outside of 5ft the entire playoffs. Bogut or Ezeli is the same case...

Maybe I'll be wrong in a few years, but I don't think a team built around an offensive center who takes a lot of 3pt shots will ever be a title contender in the near future. These guys sit in the paint their entire life, moving them out of that comfort zone probably isn't going to optimize their all around game.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

I don't get this. Why would taking more 3s make a player a worse rim protector (unless he changes his position which neither of your examples did)? There is no connection whatsoever.

Well that's the thing, one would expect a player being on the perimeter more on offense, wouldn't effect their defensive rim-protection. But, on all the cases I listed (except for Cousins who isn't really a rim-protector at the level the other two guys are), their blocks went down. All of these guys had an increase in Drtg as well, so there must be a connection. Perhaps its just random correlation, but it seems that big guys playing on the perimeter offensively huts a team defensively.

Perhaps its fatigue of having to move around more on offense, and an increased likely hood of being switched onto a perimeter player in transition. I'm not really sure what the cause is, but it seems to be the case.

I think it's just a coincidence. Ibaka is likely older than listed and his athleticism has been declining, he's pretty clearly on a downward trend in that respect imo. Davis just had a down year, he was on a terrible team with a new coaching staff, new style of play, etc.

Its because basketball is a dynamic game.

You start playing a big man on the perimeter more, then the other team is going to sub in a perimeter defender who the big then has to defend on the other end. You cant just move the big to the perimeter on one end and hope the other team doesn't adjust so you can keep them inside on defense.