Big men and the 3pt shot...

[blind prophet]

The big man 3 that I like is when he's trailing up the court and isn't picked up at all and is in motion, completely wide open, a real easy pass to catch and shoot.

Forces the other teams big to play honest defense early in the offense opening up backdoor cuts, or a potential quick pass into the key for a close 1 v1 at the rim/post.

Cousins looked real good early in the clock while he was trailing.

[tsherkin]

I guess I wasn't clear. The strategy of not chasing rebounds to get back on D, paired with bigs not crashing is what I'm talking about too. We're on the same page. I have a habit of not making detailed enough responses.

And to some extent, it makes sense. You see stretch bigs on the OTHER team a little more, and if they run the sideline to the corner, you're going to get burned the way Denver used to own faces with Alex English and his 15- to 20-footers... and actually a lot of guards/wings in the 60s-mid-90s used to do a lot of that. We're just stepping it back to take advantage of the extra point now. As pace increases, offensive rebounding BECOMES a form of defense, but we'd depressed pace so much in the late 90s and into the mid 2000s that it was in the culture to KILL the easy transition points, right? It became dogma, instead of understood strategy.

[phanman]

A lot of these 3's in the case of Towns and Cousins come from them trailing in transition after fighting for a defensive board, which is a pretty damn nifty tool to have in your game. Also, these guys can keep the d guessing when they screen at the top of the key, as they are liable to pop or roll. I don't see any reason to be a curmudgeon about elite bigs improving their range.

Yes, in theory. But almost every one of these guys has a lower PER in seasons where they attempt a higher number of 3s. Would you trade a 3pt shot for a worse overall player? Guess it might depend on a lot of factors, but as a center, you can have 4 other guys that space the floor that are more natural fits for perimeter games than 7ft players.

Does every player need to be a floor spacer? In my opinon no, Cav's won with TT who took like 1 shot outside of 5ft the entire playoffs. Bogut or Ezeli is the same case...

Maybe I'll be wrong in a few years, but I don't think a team built around an offensive center who takes a lot of 3pt shots will ever be a title contender in the near future. These guys sit in the paint their entire life, moving them out of that comfort zone probably isn't going to optimize their all around game.

Kind of an extreme example as both teams have offensive superstars to shoulder the burden... Kyrie/JR/Bron/Love and Curry/Thompson/Barnes-Iggy/Green.

Most teams don't have that luxury. Therefore they need more skilled bigs to help out with the scoring.

Then again nowadays PF's are almost required to have the ability to spread the floor with the way the game is going. Unless your strictly referring to C's. There are only a handful of low-post dominant C's nowadays and the way teams have learned to double down it has effectively neutralized that area of the game. Most of the C's also are terrible passers out of the post.

[Daddy 801]

If a player has a better percentage of points per shot taking 3 pointers than he does taking 2 pointers than he should be taking those shots more often. If he doesn't and he continues to take those shots the coach should put him on the bench. It's pretty simple really.

[Johnny Firpo]

Personally, I can't stand it. Taking moving a great interior defender like AD on the perimeter isn't going to make him a better player, its trading a strength for something they are just average at.

I don't get this, just because they develop a more perimeter oriented offensive game, they don't have to do anything differently on defense.

[boomershadow]

There are some examples used in this thread that might not be the best representation of the point, but I definitely do think that parking a power forward in a spot beyond the 3 point line to wait for a kickout does reduce other facets of the game that are indeed important.

I think the analytics are demonstrating that the reduction of post play and mid range shots are a GOAL to be achieved, rather than a facet of the game that is being reduced. Which is kind of the point in teams shooting more and more 3s, fewer and fewer mid range shots, etc. The goal is to create an offense as efficient as possible and this is the way those offenses are doing that. Incorporating shooting at as many positions as possible helps IMMENSELY as that defender cannot help, or at the very least can't help as much. If you want to know what the biggest change in the game from last year to 10 years from know its simple: everyone will be a better shooter in the future. Its just too important to have that threat out there.

And shooting isn't JUST about having elite bigs move to the 3 pt line. Its to remove his defender from the lane and to penalize teams for utilizing help. A few years ago both Vogel, then Pop took out their All NBA Def Cs in the closing seconds because they didn't want them operating in space or being forced to defend 3 point shooters. In both cases it cost them dearly. However, leaving them in uncomfortable positions away from the basket was also utilized by the Cavs in this years G7 when Ezeli was uncomfortably asked to guard LBJ at the 3 pt line on successive possessions. Having a big in the game means the offense can create a mismatch with relative ease.

Accept this for what it is, the evolution of the game.

I don't think it is exactly that, though. It's part of a cycle, a trend. And I think there will come a time when the overall benefits of having bigs continue to focus more on shooting 3s won't outweigh what gets lost when they aren't rolling to the basket for dunks, grabbing offensive rebounds, or being available down low for a pass or a post up.

For the past 5-6 years, the pendulum has been swinging one way, no doubt, but if even one of the bigger, meatier teams that are still around finally breaks through, it'll swing back the other direction some.

[Johnlac1]

The problem of too many threes and the supposed extinction of the inside scoring big man could be solved very easily by a few rule changes. Just after five fouls on shots in the lane, give every a player an extra free throw.
If a player makes a shot inside the lane after five fouls, he gets two foul shots. If he misses a shot inside the lane after five fouls, he gets three foul shots.
Here's the kicker....after five fouls on shots in the lane per half any teammate of the player fouled on the court at the time of the foul can take the foul shots. That means teams won't be hacking Howard, Jordan, or any other awful big man foul shooter.
Those changes could change the focus of the game from being dominated by three point shooters.

[tsherkin]

The problem of too many threes and the supposed extinction of the inside scoring big man could be solved very easily by a few rule changes.

Rules changes aren't necessary. We've come to an understanding that a lot of poster scorers simply aren't efficient enough to matter the way they were used in older eras. Previous generations did a lot of things wrong. In ten, fifteen years, we'll note similar differences in the present era's players, errant strategies, etc. The game develops over time. Some of it is just cycle and response, some of it is born of actual improved understanding. With the exception of the elites, it's not worth it to throw offense to guys who are shooting 40-45% on hook shots when you can get similar looks from further other, with the added advantage of dribble penetration collapsing defenses.

It's a fatiguing thing to lean on the rules as a crutch and excuse when the reality is that smashing it into the post isn't a smart strategy unless the guy's an outlier scorer from there, and given their size, such talents are far less common. More importantly, it also comes from the wrong place: most of the great post scorers had a lot in common with Anthony Davis or Karl Malone, evidencing a strong (or at least developing) jumper and fantastic off-ball movement (and frequently strong offensive rebounding as well), and weren't crazy-useful in late-clock scenarios, so they still needed perimeter scorers anyway.

There's nothing wrong with the league now with respect to scoring in the post: lots of guys do it pretty well and on a regular basis, it just isn't worth it to smash them the ball for 20 shots per game in order to float their averages to reach some arbitrary volume threshold, and they don't alter the defense enough mostly to be worth it as offensive focii instead of as secondary scorers. Beyond this, people forget how much non-Shaq/Wilt players shot jumpers, despite being "post players."

Look at someone like Willis Reed or Dave Cowens or whomever. There are like three guys in league history who ACTUALLY dominated while rarely leaving 12 feet, and they are Wilt, Kareem and Shaq... all three of whom were dirty physical outliers which we don't see very often at all.

People need to put aside this "the rules, the rules" stuff with respect to the post...

[TinmanZBoy]

i absolutely hated Cousins taking those threes last season

[OrangeBlueSkies]

Not every big can shoot the ball. Players like KAT, KP, Dirk, KD, DeMarcus Cousins can all shoot the ball really well, and so they make sense. A player like Noah or Biyombo, who have NO offense game cannot make these shots. However, players like Al Horford and Marc Gasol, who can hit the mid-range shot, just do not have what it takes to hit the three point shot .

[og15]

Porzingis blocked plenty of shots in spite of shooting the 3 regularly

I'm kind of looking more at guys who have their games adjusted while they are in the league to shoot more 3s, DMC, Ibaka etc... Zingis is one of the guys who belongs in a stretch 4 role, he's built for that. Kind of like a better Channing Frye or the obvious Dirk comparison.

Horford is probably the only guy who didn't experience much of a overall performance drop off, but he shot nearly 40% from 3pt range and was never much of a rebounded/rim protector to begin with, so there isn't a massive loss in production like we see in AD or Ibaka.

Why are you making a causation claim with 3PT shooting and blocks / rim protection? Those things have absolutely nothing to do with each other, just because there's a statistical correlation doesn't mean they are causally related, careful with that. Even without the common sense of why they wouldn't cause each other, it's a sample size that wouldn't hold up to a fact check of multiple players.

The offensive side, depends on the player. A guy like Cousins or Davis is not going to benefit much from 3PT shooting unless they are really good at it or they convert all their mid range shots to three's then do all their other scoring inside 8 feet. Not sure that's realistic though as some of the mid range attack areas help them to get to the basket and set up the closer shots.

Ibaka and a guy like Horford, those ones are a different situation. Ibaka has been shooting mid and long mid range jumpers for quite some time, and with the set up of OKC's roster, it made sense to make him move further and be a floor spacer when you're playing a guy like Roberson so much. Ibaka has never been a shot creator in the inside, so it's more of a maximizing the team unit situation.

[og15]

Over the past few seasons, we've seen a few interior based big men attempt to transition to a more perimeter based game that favors shooting more 3 point shots.

So what are people's opinion on this? Almost across the board, we see big men who attempt more 3pt shots average fewer blocks and rebounds than their more interior based self. So is a big man who can shoot the 3, worth giving up the blocks and rebounds that come with the interior game? None of the guys I mentioned saw a massive jump in scoring and all of them saw decreases in PER and true shooting percentage. Or is the game so dependent on spacing, that a 3pt shot is required for all offensive players in today's game?

Personally, I can't stand it. Taking moving a great interior defender like AD on the perimeter isn't going to make him a better player, its trading a strength for something they are just average at.

I'd be interested to hear the argument people who are for these guys attempting more 3pt shots, if they even exist.

It' depends on the player. I hate it that Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis, and DeMarcus Cousins are shooting 3's when fans see how under-utilized and sometimes under-developed their post games are. I think the 3pt shot is the final weapon for a big man and not a need in my eyes unless you are a role player who needs to justify his place in the league with a bad skillset. It's simply aesthetics/bias for me because I like seeing Dirk/Love light it up but not guys like Davis or Cousins shooting it at the bad to mediocre percentages especially when counted on as the primary rebounder.

Blake Griffin attempted 0.5 3PA/G. His career high is 0.6 3PA/G in 13-14. You must have seen a highlight clip where all his made 3PT shots were shown it to think he actually take a lot of 3PT shots.

Most of his 3PA are in late clock pick and pop, etc. I would be more worried about all the long midrange jumpers he takes than him taking 1 3PT shot every two games, but of course as a short armed PF, he can't expect to play the game like he's Shaq or someone like that and needs a perimeter game to balance out his offense.

As a 33.3% and 40% 3PT shooter on his limited attempts the last two seasons, he might be better off taking some more three's than he is taking the mid-range jumpers just inside the 3PT line, of course he would need to maintain similar percentages. He's attempted about 7 FGA/G from 16 feet and inside the 3PT line over the last two seasons anyways. If one more of those was a 3PT attempt it would be fine, and if not, it's fine too.

[Statlanta]

Blake Griffin attempted 0.5 3PA/G. His career high is 0.6 3PA/G in 13-14. You must have seen a highlight clip where all his made 3PT shots were shown it to think he actually take a lot of 3PT shots.

Most of his 3PA are in late clock pick and pop, etc. I would be more worried about all the long midrange jumpers he takes than him taking 1 3PT shot every two games, but of course as a short armed PF, he can't expect to play the game like he's Shaq or someone like that and needs a perimeter game to balance out his offense.

As a 33.3% and 40% 3PT shooter on his limited attempts the last two seasons, he might be better off taking some more three's than he is taking the mid-range jumpers just inside the 3PT line, of course he would need to maintain similar percentages. He's attempted about 7 FGA/G from 16 feet and inside the 3PT line over the last two seasons anyways. If one more of those was a 3PT attempt it would be fine, and if not, it's fine too.

I see I am using Blake as hyperbole but I am not sure how good he could develop his perimeter game than improving inside . Given his knack at being mobile to finish inside buckets and how the defense forces him to mid-range shots I can see why fans want him to go out further. But aesthetically it looks very strange to see him out on the perimeter with his hitched jumpshot shooting long range shots and so far his volume and percentage at 3 don't give me enough evidence to advise him there(positively or negatively). Obviously he has his elite handles for his position and his playmaking to help out the offense but I'm not sure how he can get better at his perimeter game with his jumpshot or if his potential outside would be more impactful than inside

[og15]

Blake Griffin attempted 0.5 3PA/G. His career high is 0.6 3PA/G in 13-14. You must have seen a highlight clip where all his made 3PT shots were shown it to think he actually take a lot of 3PT shots.

Most of his 3PA are in late clock pick and pop, etc. I would be more worried about all the long midrange jumpers he takes than him taking 1 3PT shot every two games, but of course as a short armed PF, he can't expect to play the game like he's Shaq or someone like that and needs a perimeter game to balance out his offense.

As a 33.3% and 40% 3PT shooter on his limited attempts the last two seasons, he might be better off taking some more three's than he is taking the mid-range jumpers just inside the 3PT line, of course he would need to maintain similar percentages. He's attempted about 7 FGA/G from 16 feet and inside the 3PT line over the last two seasons anyways. If one more of those was a 3PT attempt it would be fine, and if not, it's fine too.

I see I am using Blake as hyperbole but I am not sure how good he could develop his perimeter game than improving inside . Given his knack at being mobile to finish inside buckets and how the defense forces him to mid-range shots I can see why fans want him to go out further. But aesthetically it looks very strange to see him out on the perimeter with his hitched jumpshot shooting long range shots and so far his volume and percentage at 3 don't give me enough evidence to advise him there(positively or negatively). Obviously he has his elite handles for his position and his playmaking to help out the offense but I'm not sure how he can get better at his perimeter game with his jumpshot or if his potential outside would be more impactful than inside

Blake can at times get contained inside by mobile guys who are lengthy and/or athletic, especially when he's more fatigued. It was part of what happened vs Houston in game 6 two playoffs ago; he went inside but got blocked by Smith and Howard I believe and then missed some tough close shots when Houston was coming back.

I'm less concerned about his 3PT shot than I was before because unless he starts taking like 4-5 3PA/G and basically then cuts off half all his mid-range jumpshots past 16 feet, it won't make much difference in efficiency or effectiveness to take 1.5 3PA/G even if he's hitting like 37% 3PT.

His slight hitch which is not as bad as it was, and his lack of a forward sway and sometimes even a floating backwards on his jumper is probably limiting more growth in his jumpshooter effectiveness.

The other way he can gain efficiency is improved FT shooting, so if he can get into the 80s that would help him. That's the other option outside of becoming really elite from mid-range or becoming a decent volume and fairly good percentage 3PT shooter. With his length he does still have some limitations in how much he can consistently go inside against every kind of defense. He might not be "pretty" in the post, but pretty and effective need to be separated. He's effective, that's for sure.