Milwaukee early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Slava)

[Mystical Apples]

I kinda feel like the Bucks will be shuffling fringe deck chairs until Jabari is moved. And yes I get he's young, kinda local-ish and considered untradeable but he'll never be ideal next to Giannis. Exhausting resources and churning assets elsewhere to make it functional isn't worth it.

I liked the Delly signing, a lot actually. Teletovic was fine but he's too old and will regress. Overall though MIL's off season should be graded on what they didn't do.

C-

This keeps being said and it just isn't true. Outside of maybe Middleton, Jabari is probably the player on the roster who fits next to Giannis the best. I'm fairly confident Jabari will be a good shooter in time, likely as soon as this season when Kidd gives him the green light and he gets more game reps, and when he does the fit with that duo will be damn near seamless. Midds-Jabari-Giannis at the 2-3-4 (in that specific order) with a shooter/defender at PG and an athletic hustle center have been some of the most promising lineups for us. They work well together.

I think the major misunderstanding with fit issues comes from listing Giannis as a 3 and Jabari as a 4 on defense. Post ASB Jabari exclusively defended wings (with decent enough sucess to make me believe that he can turn out to be a neutral defender) and Giannis has been protecting the paint. Furthermore, it seems that Jabari has slimmed down during offseason solidifying my claim that Jabari should be exclusively considered a SF.
As Milbuck mentioned, Jabari and Giannis mesh well on offense and that should only increase further with both improving their range.

Hoping Parker eventually becomes a neutral defender is exactly what I'm talking about. Committing resources on offensive usage instead of a floor spacing defender - including rebounding issues - is a Giannis opportunity cost.

[LuessiT]

This keeps being said and it just isn't true. Outside of maybe Middleton, Jabari is probably the player on the roster who fits next to Giannis the best. I'm fairly confident Jabari will be a good shooter in time, likely as soon as this season when Kidd gives him the green light and he gets more game reps, and when he does the fit with that duo will be damn near seamless. Midds-Jabari-Giannis at the 2-3-4 (in that specific order) with a shooter/defender at PG and an athletic hustle center have been some of the most promising lineups for us. They work well together.

I think the major misunderstanding with fit issues comes from listing Giannis as a 3 and Jabari as a 4 on defense. Post ASB Jabari exclusively defended wings (with decent enough sucess to make me believe that he can turn out to be a neutral defender) and Giannis has been protecting the paint. Furthermore, it seems that Jabari has slimmed down during offseason solidifying my claim that Jabari should be exclusively considered a SF.
As Milbuck mentioned, Jabari and Giannis mesh well on offense and that should only increase further with both improving their range.

Hoping Parker eventually becomes a neutral defender is exactly what I'm talking about. Committing resources on offensive usage instead of a floor spacing defender - including rebounding issues - is a Giannis opportunity cost.

There are zero rebounding issues. Jabari is at least an average rebounder compared to wings, Giannis is an above average rebounder compared to 4's. And they're 22 and 21. And the outlook for floor spacing is just fine.

[AussieBuck]

I assumed from the others in this series that you had one review from the team in question. Depth charts look ridiculous, particularly with RV at SF and Jabari at PF.

[M-C-G]

I kinda feel like the Bucks will be shuffling fringe deck chairs until Jabari is moved. And yes I get he's young, kinda local-ish and considered untradeable but he'll never be ideal next to Giannis. Exhausting resources and churning assets elsewhere to make it functional isn't worth it.

I liked the Delly signing, a lot actually. Teletovic was fine but he's too old and will regress. Overall though MIL's off season should be graded on what they didn't do.

C-

Totally disagree with your take on Jabari. If you pair him with Henson it is fine. You aren't going to have five plus defenders in a line up. Put him with Midds, Delly, Giannis and Henson and voila you haven't churned any assets and have a very viable unit. Trading Parker should be out of the question.

[Mystical Apples]

I assumed from the others in this series that you had one review from the team in question. Depth charts look ridiculous, particularly with RV at SF and Jabari at PF.

So who's the small forward in 2nd unit lineups with MCW, Terry, and Vaughn?

[Texas Chuck]

I assumed from the others in this series that you had one review from the team in question. Depth charts look ridiculous, particularly with RV at SF and Jabari at PF.

Depth charts were provided by a website listed in the OP. And many of the reviewers commented they would run the rotations differently.

[bondom34]

I assumed from the others in this series that you had one review from the team in question. Depth charts look ridiculous, particularly with RV at SF and Jabari at PF.

Also, if you'd like to submit, PM HartfordWhalers. We were looking for someone and I don't think he heard back from anyone from the Bucks. It can be edited in, we've been asking members of team boards for them all.

[Prez]

I assumed from the others in this series that you had one review from the team in question. Depth charts look ridiculous, particularly with RV at SF and Jabari at PF.

So who's the small forward in 2nd unit lineups with MCW, Terry, and Vaughn?

One of Middleton, Giannis, or Jabari will be on the floor at all times.

[HartfordWhalers]

I assumed from the others in this series that you had one review from the team in question. Depth charts look ridiculous, particularly with RV at SF and Jabari at PF.

I definitely addressed some of that.

Current Depth Chart: (taken from bbinsiders)
PG: Michael Carter-Williams, Matthew Dellavedova, Jason Terry, Tyler Ennis
SG: Khris Middleton, Rashad Vaughn, Malcolm Brogdon, Orlando Johnson
SF: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Steve Novak, J.J. O’Brien
PF: Jabari Parker, Mirza Teletovic, Thon Maker
C: Greg Monroe, John Henson, Miles Plumlee

I moved Rashad Vaughn back to sg, as he isn't really a sf. And then Thon to pf. And then Terry to pg.
But regardless of where you put the guys, this depth chart looks razor thin.

I didn't bother flipping Jabari and Giannis for several reasons.

On defense I would fully expect that Giannis will guard some sf's versus Parker depending upon the match ups, so there won't be a clear cut positional definition from that. Offensively, Giannis is more likely to be out on the perimeter while Jabari is closer to the hoop, suggesting that Jabari is the pf on that side, although Giannis may be more of a point forward than small forward.

But I agree Vaughn slotted at sf seems really off.

I assumed from the others in this series that you had one review from the team in question. Depth charts look ridiculous, particularly with RV at SF and Jabari at PF.

So who's the small forward in 2nd unit lineups with MCW, Terry, and Vaughn?

One of Middleton, Giannis, or Jabari will be on the floor at all times.

Even if you grant that, that would mean that there will be some Dellavedova/Vaughn/Middleton/(then add 2 bigs) or MCW/Brogdon/Middleton/(then add 2 bigs) or similar type lineups. The sf depth might be fine, but when it includes Middleton then it occurs at the cost of weakening the sg depth {which is basically Middleton and a bunch of question marks}. The guard depth looks scary to me.

It would less troublesome if Milwaukee makes the plunge to declare that they will not have a technical pg pairing with Giannis, and lets lose some significant minutes with lineups like: Giannis/Middleton/Jabari/Teletovic/Henson

[KqWIN]

It's easy for me to say this with no emotional investment in the team, but this might be a good time for a team like Milwaukee to look towards the draft. I like the Delly and Teletovic signings, but all those signings did was allow them to keep pace with the large morass in the middle of the eastern conference. Giannis and Jabari are both 21, wouldn't it be better to get a high draft than chase the playoffs this season?

It was never going to happen given their recent history, but it's something to think about. I just worry that they might find themselves in a situation like New Orleans with Davis. If you have a young, budding star it's better to surround him with guys on a similar developmental curve.

[AussieBuck]

I assumed from the others in this series that you had one review from the team in question. Depth charts look ridiculous, particularly with RV at SF and Jabari at PF.

I definitely addressed some of that.

Current Depth Chart: (taken from bbinsiders)
PG: Michael Carter-Williams, Matthew Dellavedova, Jason Terry, Tyler Ennis
SG: Khris Middleton, Rashad Vaughn, Malcolm Brogdon, Orlando Johnson
SF: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Steve Novak, J.J. O’Brien
PF: Jabari Parker, Mirza Teletovic, Thon Maker
C: Greg Monroe, John Henson, Miles Plumlee

I moved Rashad Vaughn back to sg, as he isn't really a sf. And then Thon to pf. And then Terry to pg.
But regardless of where you put the guys, this depth chart looks razor thin.

I didn't bother flipping Jabari and Giannis for several reasons.

On defense I would fully expect that Giannis will guard some sf's versus Parker depending upon the match ups, so there won't be a clear cut positional definition from that. Offensively, Giannis is more likely to be out on the perimeter while Jabari is closer to the hoop, suggesting that Jabari is the pf on that side, although Giannis may be more of a point forward than small forward.

But I agree Vaughn slotted at sf seems really off.

So who's the small forward in 2nd unit lineups with MCW, Terry, and Vaughn?

One of Middleton, Giannis, or Jabari will be on the floor at all times.

Even if you grant that, that would mean that there will be some Dellavedova/Vaughn/Middleton/(then add 2 bigs) or MCW/Brogdon/Middleton/(then add 2 bigs) or similar type lineups. The sf depth might be fine, but when it includes Middleton then it occurs at the cost of weakening the sg depth {which is basically Middleton and a bunch of question marks}. The guard depth looks scary to me.

It would less troublesome if Milwaukee makes the plunge to declare that they will not have a technical pg pairing with Giannis, and lets lose some significant minutes with lineups like: Giannis/Middleton/Jabari/Teletovic/Henson

Giannis guards the odd SF that would otherwise roast us but he's the PF for everyone else. If anything it's more likely he'll cover for Jabari less at SF this season. Figuring minutes is tough though as the roster doesn't a heap of sense with the guys who were pushed out of starring roles (MCW, Monroe) still being on the team though either lack of interest of the Bucks not being able to swallow pride on their depreciating assets. No idea how C will pan out if Monroe isn't offloaded.

At a guess:
Delly 24/MCW 20/Ennis/Terry
Middleton 30/Terry/Brogdan/Vaughn
Jabari 34/Giannis 8/mids 6
Giannis 26/ Telly 22/ Thon?
Plums ~20 /Monroe?/Henson?/Thon?/Giannis 2

The main three guys plus the three signed (Delly, Teletovic, PLumlee) are the only guys I'd lock in to certain minutes especially with Kidd liable to run a bunch of weird experiments until some of his toys are taken away. Giannis holding weird second units together will likely feature heavily again.

[AussieBuck]

Just realised I've listed everyone but Novak who will probably be suited up but not playing most nights.

[Mamba4Goat]

Even if you grant that, that would mean that there will be some Dellavedova/Vaughn/Middleton/(then add 2 bigs) or MCW/Brogdon/Middleton/(then add 2 bigs) or similar type lineups. The sf depth might be fine, but when it includes Middleton then it occurs at the cost of weakening the sg depth {which is basically Middleton and a bunch of question marks}. The guard depth looks scary to me.

It would less troublesome if Milwaukee makes the plunge to declare that they will not have a technical pg pairing with Giannis, and lets lose some significant minutes with lineups like: Giannis/Middleton/Jabari/Teletovic/Henson

Giannis guards the odd SF that would otherwise roast us but he's the PF for everyone else. If anything it's more likely he'll cover for Jabari less at SF this season. Figuring minutes is tough though as the roster doesn't a heap of sense with the guys who were pushed out of starring roles (MCW, Monroe) still being on the team though either lack of interest of the Bucks not being able to swallow pride on their depreciating assets. No idea how C will pan out if Monroe isn't offloaded.

At a guess:
Delly 24/MCW 20/Ennis/Terry
Middleton 36/Terry/Brogdan/Vaughn
Jabari 34/Giannis 14
Giannis 28/ Telly 20/ Thon?
Plums ~20 /Monroe?/Henson?/Thon?/Giannis 4

The main three guys plus the three signed (Delly, Teletovic, PLumlee) are the only guys I'd lock in to certain minutes especially with Kidd liable to run a bunch of weird experiments until some of his toys are taken away. Giannis holding weird second units together will likely feature heavily again.[/quote]

You expect Giannis to play 46 minutes??

[AussieBuck]

Even if you grant that, that would mean that there will be some Dellavedova/Vaughn/Middleton/(then add 2 bigs) or MCW/Brogdon/Middleton/(then add 2 bigs) or similar type lineups. The sf depth might be fine, but when it includes Middleton then it occurs at the cost of weakening the sg depth {which is basically Middleton and a bunch of question marks}. The guard depth looks scary to me.

It would less troublesome if Milwaukee makes the plunge to declare that they will not have a technical pg pairing with Giannis, and lets lose some significant minutes with lineups like: Giannis/Middleton/Jabari/Teletovic/Henson

Giannis guards the odd SF that would otherwise roast us but he's the PF for everyone else. If anything it's more likely he'll cover for Jabari less at SF this season. Figuring minutes is tough though as the roster doesn't a heap of sense with the guys who were pushed out of starring roles (MCW, Monroe) still being on the team though either lack of interest of the Bucks not being able to swallow pride on their depreciating assets. No idea how C will pan out if Monroe isn't offloaded.

At a guess:
Delly 24/MCW 20/Ennis/Terry
Middleton 36/Terry/Brogdan/Vaughn
Jabari 34/Giannis 14
Giannis 28/ Telly 20/ Thon?
Plums ~20 /Monroe?/Henson?/Thon?/Giannis 4

The main three guys plus the three signed (Delly, Teletovic, PLumlee) are the only guys I'd lock in to certain minutes especially with Kidd liable to run a bunch of weird experiments until some of his toys are taken away. Giannis holding weird second units together will likely feature heavily again.

You expect Giannis to play 46 minutes??[/quote]
No I'm sleep deprived, he'll do that a bunch of times but not all season. lol I'll adjust. thanks mate, Kidd was very fond of getting Giannis a long first half break then playing him all 24 in the second half so he could lead the league in minutes this season.

[tmorgan]

I really liked the Bucks' off-season moves THIS season (outside of the overpay on Plumlee), but they're still dealing with some poor choices made last year. I don't love Thon, but he could certainly be a good player. B+ from me.

[tmorgan]

Also, how awesome is it that the Bucks' backup PFs can be referred to as a Telly-Thon?

[AussieBuck]

I really liked the Bucks' off-season moves THIS season (outside of the overpay on Plumlee), but they're still dealing with some poor choices made last year. I don't love Thon, but he could certainly be a good player. B+ from me.

Yep, lots of last offseason stink still there. If we'd managed to offload Monroe and MCW and got back another decent combo guard to go with Delly we'd be looking great for the start of the Giannis era.

[crkone]

Delly(24)/MCW(24)/Ennis(?)/Brogdon(?)/Terry(?)
Mids(30)/MCW(7)/Delly(4)/Vaughn(7)/Brogdon(?)/Terry(?)
Parker(34)/Giannis(10)/Mids(4)/MCW(?)/Novak(?)
Giannis(24)/Telly(20)/Thon(4)/Novak(?)
Plums(16)/Monroe(16)/Henson(16)/Giannis(?)/Thon(?)

As long as MCW is here, I expect him to get a ton of minutes in his contract year. The C minutes can be ignored since that is a crapshoot but the Bucks have plenty of options since MCW and Delly can both guard most backup SGs. The 3rd PG and SG will probably be a mix of Vaughn/Brogdon/Terry while all the SF will be one of the core 3.

[HartfordWhalers]

Giannis guards the odd SF that would otherwise roast us but he's the PF for everyone else. If anything it's more likely he'll cover for Jabari less at SF this season. Figuring minutes is tough though as the roster doesn't a heap of sense with the guys who were pushed out of starring roles (MCW, Monroe) still being on the team though either lack of interest of the Bucks not being able to swallow pride on their depreciating assets. No idea how C will pan out if Monroe isn't offloaded.

At a guess:
Delly 24/MCW 20/Ennis/Terry
Middleton 30/Terry/Brogdan/Vaughn
Jabari 34/Giannis 8/mids 6
Giannis 26/ Telly 22/ Thon?
Plums ~20 /Monroe?/Henson?/Thon?/Giannis 2

The main three guys plus the three signed (Delly, Teletovic, PLumlee) are the only guys I'd lock in to certain minutes especially with Kidd liable to run a bunch of weird experiments until some of his toys are taken away. Giannis holding weird second units together will likely feature heavily again.

In terms of the cross matching, I think you are right that Giannis will guard sf's less than last season. But I expect Parker to play more the offensive pf role, so the idea of switching the depth chart seemed pretty unnecessary and cosmetic. That said, if we see a lot of Jabari/Telletovic on the court at the same time, I think a formal depth chart switch was needed. I also think for that lineup the defense will be frightening (although it makes sense offensively). Put me down as very interested in seeing if those lineups occur, or if the team treats Telletovic as Jabari's backup and rarely pairs them.

Delly(24)/MCW(24)/Ennis(?)/Brogdon(?)/Terry(?)
Mids(30)/MCW(7)/Delly(4)/Vaughn(7)/Brogdon(?)/Terry(?)
Parker(34)/Giannis(10)/Mids(4)/MCW(?)/Novak(?)
Giannis(24)/Telly(20)/Thon(4)/Novak(?)
Plums(16)/Monroe(16)/Henson(16)/Giannis(?)/Thon(?)

As long as MCW is here, I expect him to get a ton of minutes in his contract year. The C minutes can be ignored since that is a crapshoot but the Bucks have plenty of options since MCW and Delly can both guard most backup SGs. The 3rd PG and SG will probably be a mix of Vaughn/Brogdon/Terry while all the SF will be one of the core 3.

I feel like this minute distribution makes sense, but:
-- 18 minutes of MCW/Delly/Vaughn/Brogdon/Terry at backup sg will be very scary if one doesn't seriously step up.
-- Dellavedova (or MCW) strikes me as a below average starter unless one of them really steps it up.
-- 31 minutes of MCW and 28 minutes of Dellavedova means there will be a bunch of time with both on the court at the same time (11 minutes at least), which also worries me.

In short, I see two backup pg's and no backup sg. Hopefully there is internal improvement that makes one guy look like a legit starting pg, and another as a legit backup sg. Or Thon breaks out Giannis style so much nothing else matters. Otherwise, I am left with an offseason that looks like it cluttered up the roster around the core of Middleton/Parker/Giannis versus establishing more clear cut starting depth chart than:
Starting PG?
Middleton (34)
Parker(34)
Giannis(34)
Starting C?

[M-C-G]

It's easy for me to say this with no emotional investment in the team, but this might be a good time for a team like Milwaukee to look towards the draft. I like the Delly and Teletovic signings, but all those signings did was allow them to keep pace with the large morass in the middle of the eastern conference. Giannis and Jabari are both 21, wouldn't it be better to get a high draft than chase the playoffs this season?

It was never going to happen given their recent history, but it's something to think about. I just worry that they might find themselves in a situation like New Orleans with Davis. If you have a young, budding star it's better to surround him with guys on a similar developmental curve.

New Orleans has Davis, end of talent.

We have Giannis, Parker, Middleton and some young pieces in Thon, Ennis, Vaughn that have plenty of upside to develop. I don't think they are remotely comparable.

As bad as we were last year, with absolutely no bench other than Bayless, like NONE, we still ended up with the 10th pick and that was with quasi tanking at the end of the year, playing guys like Vaughn, playing two center line ups, etc.

Having some shooters and a bench is going to do wonders for this team. I'd still like to swap Monroe out for a back up 3, but even if we keep him, he should be able to crush on second unit centers.

As far as I am concerned it is time to start winning and judging by the offseason our team thinks so too.