CBS Sports "reporting": Sixers reportedly plan to trade either Nerlens Noel or Jahlil Okafor

[Sixersftw]

Just about everyone acknowledges that his defense has to improve, but I believe how bad his defense is perceived is exaggerated. He's a bad defender, he's not as bad as some insist, imo.

I strongly disagree with this.

I agree that now people are just arguing past each other, however.

But I agree with this so much that there is no need to get into it again. This is like a political discussion. At this point we aren't changing anyone's mind. We are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Sixerscan]

I mean he was an awful defensive player in college to the degree that K would take him out at the end of games sometimes, the worst defensive big man I've ever seen get regular minutes on this team besides someone who didn't belong in the NBA like Christian wood or people like Webber coleman or hawes after they stopped giving a crap and wanting to be traded.

If you want to say he's 20 and can get better fine but I'm not really sure how it could be exaggerated how bad he has been to this point in his career. He was lost out there.

[Mik317]

Okafor's defense sucks ass. No doubt about it.

however if you are willing to overlook Noel's weaknesses and not able to do the same with Jah, then that is a bit hypocritical no?

yes defense is hella important for a center, which is why Noel has the edge. I agree with that...but I don't think its far fetch Jah NEVER gets any better defensively (the same goes for Noel offensively). Jah's issues defensively are all effort and awareness based. Both are fixable with time. Its not a can't ever do thing like many are making it out to be. He moves quite well for a guy his size, has great length, and most importantly time. We have him under contract for a while to find out if he can ever develop those skills. OR perhaps with better talent, his offense becomes good enough to justify some of his weaknesses. This idea that every player is going to be this perfect player is misguided and only leaves people to be this butthurt.

at the end of the day....we aren't going be contending this year, next year or probably the year after that. We have time to wait. And if the price for that is losing Noel (be it to FA or a trade), eh its not the end of the world.

I like Noel...and I am one of those crazies who would probably do a Jah for Smart trade right now. I get it..but man I think some people are too adamant about something that isn't set in stone. Players can improve. Jah has major talent and tools...this idea that he has maxed out already is crazy. And its not even a "bu-but he's twenty" **** either...everyone can improve...especially with actual talent next to them. I am willing to wait and see if that is the case or not. Its weird that some people that were so patient for "the process" aren't patient when it comes to other things.

[hookshot199]

I mean he was an awful defensive player in college to the degree that K would take him out at the end of games sometimes, the worst defensive big man I've ever seen get regular minutes on this team besides someone who didn't belong in the NBA like Christian wood or people like Webber coleman or hawes after they stopped giving a crap and wanting to be traded.

If you want to say he's 20 and can get better fine but I'm not really sure how it could be exaggerated how bad he has been to this point in his career. He was lost out there.

He was a freshman. I realize it's comparing apples and oranges, but in some ways it's not.

In Tim Duncan's freshman year at Wake Forest, he averaged 30 mpg like Okafor, 9.6 rebounds (compared to 8.5 for Okafor same conference), 3.8 blocks (Okafor 1.4), shot at a .545 clip (Okafor .664), scored 9.8 points (Okafor 17.3).

Duncan entered the NBA as a 21-year-old, Okafor at 19.

Okafor will never be a great defensive player like Duncan. He'll never be a complete player like Duncan in my opinion.

But he may be a better offensive player.

I suspect he'll be somewhere in between Al Jefferson and Duncan as a package. He'll put up 20-plus/game and 8-9 rebounds. He'll be an occasional all star.

But I believe you're being overly harsh in writing him off.

When Duncan joined the Spurs, at 21, his coach was Popovich, one of the all time greats. Robinson was back from an injury, thus the Spurs had a true veteran leader. Avery Johnson was their point. Almost every player in the regular rotations was 30. It was a veteran team.

Duncan would have succeeded anywhere.

But I doubt if he would have had as much success in Philadelphia last year as he did in San Antonio with Isiah Canaan and TJ (an undrafted rookie, a pleasant surprise) playing point and Hollis Thompson being the sole shooter able to play at the start of the season.

It was a perfect storm for Okafor to fail. Even Jason Thompson and Carl Landry weren't able to suit up.

[hookshot199]

I am one of those crazies who would probably do a Jah for Smart trade right now.

No. The guy can't shoot. And he'll walk in two years if he's paid way over value.

[Sixerscan]

I mean he was an awful defensive player in college to the degree that K would take him out at the end of games sometimes, the worst defensive big man I've ever seen get regular minutes on this team besides someone who didn't belong in the NBA like Christian wood or people like Webber coleman or hawes after they stopped giving a crap and wanting to be traded.

If you want to say he's 20 and can get better fine but I'm not really sure how it could be exaggerated how bad he has been to this point in his career. He was lost out there.

He was a freshman. I realize it's comparing apples and oranges, but in some ways it's not.

In Tim Duncan's freshman year at Wake Forest, he averaged 30 mpg like Okafor, 9.6 rebounds (compared to 8.5 for Okafor same conference), 3.8 blocks (Okafor 1.4), shot at a .545 clip (Okafor .664), scored 9.8 points (Okafor 17.3).

Duncan entered the NBA as a 21-year-old, Okafor at 19.

Okafor will never be a great defensive player like Duncan. He'll never be a complete player like Duncan in my opinion.

But he may be a better offensive player.

I suspect he'll be somewhere in between Al Jefferson and Duncan as a package. He'll put up 20-plus/game and 8-9 rebounds. He'll be an occasional all star.

But I believe you're being overly harsh in writing him off.

When Duncan joined the Spurs, at 21, his coach was Popovich, one of the all time greats. Robinson was back from an injury, thus the Spurs had a true veteran leader. Avery Johnson was their point. Almost every player in the regular rotations was 30. It was a veteran team.

Duncan would have succeeded anywhere.

But I doubt if he would have had as much success in Philadelphia last year as he did in San Antonio with Isiah Canaan and TJ (an undrafted rookie, a pleasant surprise) playing point and Hollis Thompson being the sole shooter able to play at the start of the season.

It was a perfect storm for Okafor to fail. Even Jason Thompson and Carl Landry weren't able to suit up.

Okafor was on national champions in college and was an awful defender. You can certainly be a freshman in college and be a passable defense, such as the two freshman that started with him at duke or the two other centers on our roster. He has not been the only big man on the Sixers during this tank and no one else has looked as bad besides people that either didn't belong in the NBA or were blatantly not giving any sort of effort in hopes of getting traded.

I didn't write him off. I explicitly said that I was only talking about his career to date. If you want to talk about how he can improve fine but he's been awful his entire career, which is what I was talking about.

I swear there are like 10 caveats that you have to make before you say anything about okafor.

[Sixerscan]

Okafor's defense sucks ass. No doubt about it.

however if you are willing to overlook Noel's weaknesses and not able to do the same with Jah, then that is a bit hypocritical no?

yes defense is hella important for a center, which is why Noel has the edge. I agree with that...but I don't think its far fetch Jah NEVER gets any better defensively (the same goes for Noel offensively). Jah's issues defensively are all effort and awareness based. Both are fixable with time. Its not a can't ever do thing like many are making it out to be. He moves quite well for a guy his size, has great length, and most importantly time. We have him under contract for a while to find out if he can ever develop those skills. OR perhaps with better talent, his offense becomes good enough to justify some of his weaknesses. This idea that every player is going to be this perfect player is misguided and only leaves people to be this butthurt.

at the end of the day....we aren't going be contending this year, next year or probably the year after that. We have time to wait. And if the price for that is losing Noel (be it to FA or a trade), eh its not the end of the world.

I like Noel...and I am one of those crazies who would probably do a Jah for Smart trade right now. I get it..but man I think some people are too adamant about something that isn't set in stone. Players can improve. Jah has major talent and tools...this idea that he has maxed out already is crazy. And its not even a "bu-but he's twenty" **** either...everyone can improve...especially with actual talent next to them. I am willing to wait and see if that is the case or not. Its weird that some people that were so patient for "the process" aren't patient when it comes to other things.

Uh I said he's 20 and can improve, because people freak out if you don't say that. To the point that you can say that and still people will assume you didn't say it.

All I was doing was disagreeing with Corey who said he hasn't been that bad at defense over his career to this point. Not every post has to be a complete audit of okafor's future or comparing him to Noel.

[Sixerscan]

I look forward to the next post where I say something critical of okafor and someone says "hey he's only 20 and didn't play with a point guard" as if I don't know that and am evaluating him as if he's a 10 year vet playing with Chris Paul. Meanwhile I can saying something critical of any other player and people will get that like them I watch this team play and can evaluate them within the context of their careers and roles.

[CoreyGallagher]

All I was doing was disagreeing with Corey who said he hasn't been that bad at defense over his career to this point. Not every post has to be a complete audit of okafor's future or comparing him to Noel.

I've acknowledged that he is a poor defender, when I mention exaggeration I'm not using that to imply he hasn't been 'that' bad if by that you mean not bad. I saw the mistakes he was making as well as others were however I believe that he was blamed for more than he should have been and nitpicked on a play by play basis in the game threads while others made similar gaffs without mention. More generally his metrics are brought up (in articles and such), especially those directly comparing him to Noel which serves to only magnify his weakness by contrasting him to a great defensive big. If the alternative was a more typical big instead of Noel than I'd assume the discrepancy in points allowed per possession between them wouldn't be as much, the total points the team allowed would be more, but the difference wouldn't be and thus I doubt the perception would be the same. The saying 'the brighter the light, the darker the shadow' seems appropriate - Okafor seems that much worse because the direct contrast is to Noel instead of a more typical defensive big.

I think Okafor is a bad defender that seemed worse playing on a bad defensive team. Noel also seemed like a worse defender this season playing for a worse defensive team (Noel w/o Okafor allowed 5 more points/100 possessions than he did last season - that significant a point differential is greater than Noel to Okafor this season). I'm using both of them to make the same point about the team's defense.

[hookshot199]

I mean he was an awful defensive player in college to the degree that K would take him out at the end of games sometimes, the worst defensive big man I've ever seen get regular minutes on this team besides someone who didn't belong in the NBA like Christian wood or people like Webber coleman or hawes after they stopped giving a crap and wanting to be traded.

If you want to say he's 20 and can get better fine but I'm not really sure how it could be exaggerated how bad he has been to this point in his career. He was lost out there.

He was a freshman. I realize it's comparing apples and oranges, but in some ways it's not.

In Tim Duncan's freshman year at Wake Forest, he averaged 30 mpg like Okafor, 9.6 rebounds (compared to 8.5 for Okafor same conference), 3.8 blocks (Okafor 1.4), shot at a .545 clip (Okafor .664), scored 9.8 points (Okafor 17.3).

Duncan entered the NBA as a 21-year-old, Okafor at 19.

Okafor will never be a great defensive player like Duncan. He'll never be a complete player like Duncan in my opinion.

But he may be a better offensive player.

I suspect he'll be somewhere in between Al Jefferson and Duncan as a package. He'll put up 20-plus/game and 8-9 rebounds. He'll be an occasional all star.

But I believe you're being overly harsh in writing him off.

When Duncan joined the Spurs, at 21, his coach was Popovich, one of the all time greats. Robinson was back from an injury, thus the Spurs had a true veteran leader. Avery Johnson was their point. Almost every player in the regular rotations was 30. It was a veteran team.

Duncan would have succeeded anywhere.

But I doubt if he would have had as much success in Philadelphia last year as he did in San Antonio with Isiah Canaan and TJ (an undrafted rookie, a pleasant surprise) playing point and Hollis Thompson being the sole shooter able to play at the start of the season.

It was a perfect storm for Okafor to fail. Even Jason Thompson and Carl Landry weren't able to suit up.

Okafor was on national champions in college and was an awful defender. You can certainly be a freshman in college and be a passable defense, such as the two freshman that started with him at duke or the two other centers on our roster. He has not been the only big man on the Sixers during this tank and no one else has looked as bad besides people that either didn't belong in the NBA or were blatantly not giving any sort of effort in hopes of getting traded.

I didn't write him off. I explicitly said that I was only talking about his career to date. If you want to talk about how he can improve fine but he's been awful his entire career, which is what I was talking about. I swear there are like 10 caveats that you have to make before you say anything about okafor.

On defense. On maturity. The boards went crazy when he had his run-ins with the law. But even before then, some jerk poisoned the well on the shirt flap, posting doctored images.

I would say that if Okafor comes to camp in shape (assuming BC doesn't foolishly trade him for garbage before the season begins) and Brown is given several months to do a fair evaluation on all aspects of his game in the context of all the pieces we now have, then and only then is when we should consider writing him off or deciding he's a unique talent.

I tend to be tolerant of teenagers, which is what he was for the first third of last season. And even today, he won't be legally able to buy himself a beer until December.

[Sixerscan]

All I was doing was disagreeing with Corey who said he hasn't been that bad at defense over his career to this point. Not every post has to be a complete audit of okafor's future or comparing him to Noel.

I've acknowledged that he is a poor defender, when I mention exaggeration I'm not using that to imply he hasn't been 'that' bad if by that you mean not bad. I saw the mistakes he was making as well as others were just like everybody else, however I believe that he was blamed for more than he should have been and nitpicked on a play by play basis in the game threads while others made similar gaffs without mention. More generally his metrics are brought up, especially those directly comparing him to Noel which serves to only magnify his weakness by contrasting him to a great defensive big. If the alternative was a more typical big instead of Noel than I'd assume the discrepancy in points allowed per possession between them wouldn't be as much, the total points the team allowed would be more, but the difference wouldn't be and thus I doubt the perception would be the same. The saying 'the brighter the light, the darker the shadow' seems appropriate - Okafor seems that much worse because the direct contrast is to Noel instead of a more typical defender.

I think Okafor is a bad defender that seemed worse playing on a bad defensive team. Noel also seemed like a worse defender this season playing for a worse defensive team (Noel w/o Okafor allowed 5 more points/100 possessions than he did last season - that significant a point difference is greater than Noel to Okafor this season).

I'm no comparing him to Noel I'm comparing him to everyone on the Sixers since I've started watching. I'm also comparing his play in college where it was awfuL. He has a long history of being awful at defense.

i dont think it's ridiculous to say that people harped on his defense more because he was worse at defense. And because unlike 80% of the roster last year he's actually a prospect.

[Sixerscan]

He was a freshman. I realize it's comparing apples and oranges, but in some ways it's not.

In Tim Duncan's freshman year at Wake Forest, he averaged 30 mpg like Okafor, 9.6 rebounds (compared to 8.5 for Okafor same conference), 3.8 blocks (Okafor 1.4), shot at a .545 clip (Okafor .664), scored 9.8 points (Okafor 17.3).

Duncan entered the NBA as a 21-year-old, Okafor at 19.

Okafor will never be a great defensive player like Duncan. He'll never be a complete player like Duncan in my opinion.

But he may be a better offensive player.

I suspect he'll be somewhere in between Al Jefferson and Duncan as a package. He'll put up 20-plus/game and 8-9 rebounds. He'll be an occasional all star.

But I believe you're being overly harsh in writing him off.

When Duncan joined the Spurs, at 21, his coach was Popovich, one of the all time greats. Robinson was back from an injury, thus the Spurs had a true veteran leader. Avery Johnson was their point. Almost every player in the regular rotations was 30. It was a veteran team.

Duncan would have succeeded anywhere.

But I doubt if he would have had as much success in Philadelphia last year as he did in San Antonio with Isiah Canaan and TJ (an undrafted rookie, a pleasant surprise) playing point and Hollis Thompson being the sole shooter able to play at the start of the season.

It was a perfect storm for Okafor to fail. Even Jason Thompson and Carl Landry weren't able to suit up.

Okafor was on national champions in college and was an awful defender. You can certainly be a freshman in college and be a passable defense, such as the two freshman that started with him at duke or the two other centers on our roster. He has not been the only big man on the Sixers during this tank and no one else has looked as bad besides people that either didn't belong in the NBA or were blatantly not giving any sort of effort in hopes of getting traded.

I didn't write him off. I explicitly said that I was only talking about his career to date. If you want to talk about how he can improve fine but he's been awful his entire career, which is what I was talking about. I swear there are like 10 caveats that you have to make before you say anything about okafor.

On defense. On maturity. The boards went crazy when he had his run-ins with the law. But even before then, some jerk poisoned the well on the shirt flap, posting doctored images.

I would say that if Okafor comes to camp in shape (assuming BC doesn't foolishly trade him for garbage before the season begins) and Brown is given several months to do a fair evaluation on all aspects of his game in the context of all the pieces we now have, then and only then is when we should consider writing him off or deciding he's a unique talent.

I tend to be tolerant of teenagers, which is what he was for the first third of last season. And even today, he won't be legally able to buy himself a beer until December.

Well that's not what we're talking about so I hope you understand if I do not respond.

[CoreyGallagher]

At this point I think it's just a symptom of this argument that I attempt to address as much as I can rather than just specifically the post that I'm quoting. I edited my post attempting to clarify why I mentioned metrics - it's what articles generally refer to to make similar points and it also allows us to refer to more games - but it was too late looking at the version of my post that you quoted. I know that you're not directly comparing him to Noel and I've mentioned before that I had probably been watching with more biased eyes especially as the year went on, but I did watch him as well. I don't believe that all of the mistakes and miscues that he was being blamed for were necessarily his - or rather his alone. I think the team created situations that made our bigs look worse than they are - Noel is capable enough of a defender that it didn't seem so bad even though his numbers noticeably suffered (compared to last season), but it only accentuated how bad of a defender Okafor is/seemed to be because of what I mentioned in my last post.

[LloydFree]

Just say "he's terrible defensively, but I have hope that he will somehow become a good defender" and move on. No more debate or clarification would be needed.

[hookshot199]

Okafor was on national champions in college and was an awful defender. You can certainly be a freshman in college and be a passable defense, such as the two freshman that started with him at duke or the two other centers on our roster. He has not been the only big man on the Sixers during this tank and no one else has looked as bad besides people that either didn't belong in the NBA or were blatantly not giving any sort of effort in hopes of getting traded.

I didn't write him off. I explicitly said that I was only talking about his career to date. If you want to talk about how he can improve fine but he's been awful his entire career, which is what I was talking about. I swear there are like 10 caveats that you have to make before you say anything about okafor.

On defense. On maturity. The boards went crazy when he had his run-ins with the law. But even before then, some jerk poisoned the well on the shirt flap, posting doctored images.

I would say that if Okafor comes to camp in shape (assuming BC doesn't foolishly trade him for garbage before the season begins) and Brown is given several months to do a fair evaluation on all aspects of his game in the context of all the pieces we now have, then and only then is when we should consider writing him off or deciding he's a unique talent.

I tend to be tolerant of teenagers, which is what he was for the first third of last season. And even today, he won't be legally able to buy himself a beer until December.

Well that's not what we're talking about so I hope you understand if I do not respond.

It's not what you're talking about, but it's what I'm talking about, Sixerscan. So I hope you understand why I and others defend the guy until he's given a fair shot. Everything ain't pluses and minuses under a set of contrived conditions/metrics.

[Sixerscan]

On defense. On maturity. The boards went crazy when he had his run-ins with the law. But even before then, some jerk poisoned the well on the shirt flap, posting doctored images.

I would say that if Okafor comes to camp in shape (assuming BC doesn't foolishly trade him for garbage before the season begins) and Brown is given several months to do a fair evaluation on all aspects of his game in the context of all the pieces we now have, then and only then is when we should consider writing him off or deciding he's a unique talent.

I tend to be tolerant of teenagers, which is what he was for the first third of last season. And even today, he won't be legally able to buy himself a beer until December.

Well that's not what we're talking about so I hope you understand if I do not respond.

It's not what you're talking about, but it's what I'm talking about, Sixerscan. So I hope you understand why I and others defend the guy until he's given a fair shot. Everything ain't pluses and minuses under a set of contrived conditions/metrics.

You're the one that has cited numbers in this conversation...

He was a freshman. I realize it's comparing apples and oranges, but in some ways it's not.

In Tim Duncan's freshman year at Wake Forest, he averaged 30 mpg like Okafor, 9.6 rebounds (compared to 8.5 for Okafor same conference), 3.8 blocks (Okafor 1.4), shot at a .545 clip (Okafor .664), scored 9.8 points (Okafor 17.3).

Duncan entered the NBA as a 21-year-old, Okafor at 19.

[Ericb5]

Just say "he's terrible defensively, but I have hope that he will somehow become a good defender" and move on. No more debate or clarification would be needed.

We don't even need to go that far. We are hoping that he becomes an AVERAGE defender and rebounder for whatever position he plays. You think he can only play the 5, but we think he has a shot at playing the 4.

That better encapsulates the differences in our positions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sixerscan]

Just say "he's terrible defensively, but I have hope that he will somehow become a good defender" and move on. No more debate or clarification would be needed.

We don't even need to go that far. We are hoping that he becomes an AVERAGE defender and rebounder for whatever position he plays. You think he can only play the 5, but we think he has a shot at playing the 4.

That better encapsulates the differences in our positions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wait really? I thought it was more "well he's such a disaster defensively regardless why not just put him at the 4?" You honestly think he can be an average defender at the 4?

[hookshot199]

Well that's not what we're talking about so I hope you understand if I do not respond.

It's not what you're talking about, but it's what I'm talking about, Sixerscan. So I hope you understand why I and others defend the guy until he's given a fair shot. Everything ain't pluses and minuses under a set of contrived conditions/metrics.

You're the one that has cited numbers in this conversation...

He was a freshman. I realize it's comparing apples and oranges, but in some ways it's not.

In Tim Duncan's freshman year at Wake Forest, he averaged 30 mpg like Okafor, 9.6 rebounds (compared to 8.5 for Okafor same conference), 3.8 blocks (Okafor 1.4), shot at a .545 clip (Okafor .664), scored 9.8 points (Okafor 17.3).

Duncan entered the NBA as a 21-year-old, Okafor at 19.

CORRECTION: You didn't cite numbers/metrics. Othere did. But you did say "He's the worst defensive big man I've ever seen get regular minutes on this team besides someone who didn't belong in the NBA like Christian wood or people like Webber coleman or hawes after they stopped giving a crap and wanting to be traded."

After Mutombo left - from the 2003-04 season to 2014-15 season when Noel played his first game - this is what our front court looked like:

2003-04: Sam, Kenny Thomas, Mark Jackson
2004-05: Sam, C-Webb, Kenny Thomas, Mark Jackson
2005-06: Sam C-Web, Hunter, Lee Nailen
2006-07: Sam, C-Webb, Joe Smith, Hunter, Shavlik
2007-08: Sam, Reggie, Thad, Jason Smith
2008-09: Sam, Thad, Brand, Theo, Speights, Reggie
2009-10: Sam, Thad, Brand, Speights, Jason Smith
2010-11: Hawes, Brand, Thad, Speights, Brackins, Battie
2011-12: Hawes, Brand, Thad, Vucevic, Lavoy, Battie
2012-13: Hawes, Thad, Lavoy, Kwame, Moultrie
2013-14: Hawes, Thad, Lavoy, Orton, Simms, Brandon Davies

Your statement that is mind boggling. For six of the post-Mutombo years, Dally was our center, then Hawes with Brand (who was a mere shadow of what he previously had been). Others in the front court included Kenny Thomas (Mr. Empty Stats), C-Webb (also past his prime due to injury), Joe Smith (playing one year for a contract), Thad (undersized), Reggie (loved him, but…), Lavoy…

We had no center for 11 years except Vucevic who Collins wouldn't play. Then in 2014-2015 Noel. Then Okafor's first season, below expectation. Which brings us to today.

So who do you want to compare Okafor with - 6'7" Kenny Thomas? 6'8" Thad? Sam? C-Webb at 31 and after a major injury? Brand at 29 and after a major injury? Or Daniel Orton?

There's ample time to get this right. I suspect that Okafor will be as good or better than every player on that list with the caveat that C-Webb and Brand had experienced serious injuries and were mere shadows of themselves when they arrived in Philly.

The rest stands: He's 20. He entered the league at 19. Centers often play past their 30th birthday. Some of them develop sooner, some later. Okafor, regardless of what you think, is an incredible offensive prospect. Can he learn to be in the middle range of defender? We'll find out. But for a team that had two top-10 picks over a 10- or 15-year period, you don't give it up so cavalierly.

No one is disputing that he could have/should have performed better in his rookie year. So what? He didn't. So let's see what he does this year. That's more relevant. He'll have structure this year. We'll know by January whether your theory or my theory is right.

Enjoy.

[tk76]

NVM