CBS Sports "reporting": Sixers reportedly plan to trade either Nerlens Noel or Jahlil Okafor

[Sixerscan]

Are you really going to make me find all the scouting reports that say he was a bad defensive player in college.

I agree that they were bad at developing his defense but that didnt make his defense not bad. What happened was K understood his defense was awful and rather than teach him how to play he just did his best to hide him. (Which clearly he was successful at)

[Unbreakable99]

First of all, saying he's terrible isn't much of an evaluation. Which I find people tend to do when it comes to Okafor. They'd rather just throw out labels then have a substantive discussion on what he does well on defense, what he does poorly and how he can/will improve moving forward.

Which is strange because the very same people refuse to the same thing with Noel and his offense. They will bring up Whitside and Jordan as comparables despite Noel being nowhere either of them offensively and despite him showing no ability as of yet to even get close to either of them in three seasons. We are supposed to believe Noel has all this untapped potential after three years of basically stagnation not only on offense but defense as well but bring up the fact Okafor was a 19 year old rookie last year and somehow you are making excuses.

And yes such things matter. At least it should. The two players are in two different stages of their development process. It's sort of strange that some of you selectively apply such a standard. For example Porzingis didn't have a much better season then Okafor yet for some reason his game isn't writ in stone. Russell was just as bad as Okafor on defense, his offense was worse as he had some truly terrible stretches, filmed his teammate and somehow he is viewed as having more potential on this board. I just read someone would be willing to trade Okafor for Marcus Smart who is awful and hasn't devloped much from there since entering the league. Booker is terrible on defense and fell apart as the season went along yet somehow he gets the excuse of being a rookie. Mudiay is he a bust? How about Winslow and his 9 PER (last i checked he may have improved)?

In alot of ways I guess Okafor is a victim of being so advanced offensively people just expect his other areas of his game to be were his offense is. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that pretty much every other rookie in the league enjoys. Even Hejonza who I listened on one of the announcers on the radio try and convince me would have been the better selection. I'm sorry what? It's almost personal with you guys. You have so are invested in Noels success at this point it isn't even about Okafor or the sixers anymore.

A lot of what you wrote is wrong or false. Everyone acknowledges that Okafor is very good on offense. The concerns of people who prefer Noel over Okafor or who don't value Okafor as much as other players in the league is because of his defense. And it's ok for other positions to not be that good on defense but for a Center that really isn't ideal. That's where Okafor is not good. He doesn't protect the rim. He isn't good on pick and roll defense. he doesn't have good awareness on defense. He isn't a good rebounder.

Going back to offense, while Okafor is the best scorer player on the team that doesn't mean he's the best offensive player. The stats show that the team scores more points with Noel on the court than Okafor. And it's not just Sixer fans who see this. Just about every analyst and writer and blogger and expert sees the flaws of Okafor and rate Noel higher.

Look at the best teams. If Cleveland and Golden St and OKC and Toronto and Boston had their choice of Okafor or Noel they all would take Noel.

First of all, nothing I wrote was false. Two, you say "everyone acknowledges that Okafor is very good on offense" then say "team scores more points with Noel on the court than Okafor". So does that mean Noel is the better offensive player? See this is why it is hard to take some of you seriously. Also that stat has more to do with Ish then it does Noel. Okafor just happened to play less games with Ish then Noel because he got injured.

As far as the rest goes Okafor needs to improve his rebounding but does an excellent job boxing out. The numbers from sportsvu indicate he does a better then decent job defending from within six feet. His pick and roll defense was terrible but that goes in large part to what I have said before about college.

He was protected at Duke. Now sixercan says his defense was terrible actually it wasn't. The problem was unlike with the sixers he really wasn't allowed to be bad except in certain situations and because of that he was never really challenged to improve that side of the ball. It's unfortunate that with some of these big schools they are more concerned with winning then player development and preparing these players for the NBA.

As far as Cleveland goes they have a bunch of high usage players already. They are already not enough possessions to give Love. That doesn't make Okafor a bad player just a bad fit. GSW have Durant, Curry, Thompson, etc. Boston tried to trade for Okafor their guards and wings other then Thomas are meh. Tor already has Val which is a poor mans Okafor in alot of ways.

Of course when it comes to the sixers thats not a concern. Irving and Lebron are not on the team. Durant and Curry either. Of course Noel is a poor fit for those teams too. Not because he couldn't play for them because in large part what has allowed to those teams to bring in the Durants. The Lebrons. Is by not over paying the non-skilled players on their roster. Toronto signed Biyombo for 2.5 million and as soon as he got expensive let him walk. Cle let Mozglov walk this offseason. GSW traded Bogut to make room for Durant. Okc wasn't willing to max Ibaka and moved him to create space for another player (Durant walked anyways). The bulls let Noah walk retooled and brought in Wade. I mean the list goes on and on. I've heard numerous times that we should be using the LAL and ORL as some sort of barometer for Noel. What? Why would we want to emulate two of the worst run franchises in the NBA.

The main issue with the roster moving forward is finding a spot we can get Okafor regular minutes. It's not offensive possessions. I'm sorry but Bayless and Henderson are not Durant and Curry. I'm more then willing to have them defer to Okafor.

Okafor has moves upon moves upon moves with counter moves. Yes he's an obvious scoring machine. I'm just saying that doesn't make him the best offensive player. Getting his may be to the detriment of the team's success offensively. Noel doesn't need to shoot. One because he can't but two that actually helps the whole team score better. I do know Okafor had no PG. I would like to see him with a real PG. Who knows. Maybe the stats change this year and maybe the teams scores better with Okafor on the court than it does with Noel.

I'm not writing Okafor off but I will acknowledge his style does make it tough to win with. We would need certain players for him to play with. Maybe Simmons unlocks Okafor's flow within the offense like Ish did with Noel. I don't know. I don't hate Okafor. I actually want him to work out. He really seems like he cares and wants to be in Philly and he seems to be putting in a lot of work to get better. I want to see his hard work pay off. What I want and what I think are not the same though. I still think it will be tough with him and would rather trade him than Noel but since Noel seems to be more in demand for a trade I think Noel is the one to go. If that happens then I want Okafor to work out.

[hookshot199]

So i generally try to stay out of Oak vs Noel, cause I actually like them both, and am very happy to keep them both (at least for the near future).

I like all of your arguements about why Okafor can't be our C because of how D is so important, etc. But if that is the case, why can't he play the 4? Lots of teams have bad defensive 4's (lol Love!) Okafor has a decent stroke out to 18 or so feet, so while not a stretch four, can create some space, add in a guy like Embiid who can also has some range, yet can protect the paint and your set, right? Add to that, our new 'star' player is a guy who doesn't really get buckets for himself so much as getting buckets for others, and you have a guy like Oak who has great hands and good post moves. /shrug

This is not a criticism. I just feel like responding to somebody else's post. I don't think anybody is arguing the fact that we will have to move one of our centers if Embiid is healthy. The issue is when. And when will be determined in part by what Brown and management see on the court - and assuming Embiid is healthy.

Sixerscan has very strong views that Okafor is a horrible defensive player and perhaps can't be salvaged. He may be right. But just because Mike Krzyzewski took him out games as a freshman on a national team team is not a big deal in my opinion. And especially because he had problems last season performing on a team in complete disarray - having no point guard on a young team is a big deal - is not a career-buster in my opinion.

And lastly, for a team that didn’t have a legitimate center since Mutombo - more than a decade - what’s the rush? Let’s get this right. We lucked into the Noel pick. We lucked into the Embiid pick. And I believe we lucked into the Okafor pick (unlucked because we didn’t get Anthony-Towns). Sure, Prozingis might be better. But if Jim Buss had chosen Okafor instead of Russell, would Hinkie have chosen Russell or Prozingis? I’d like to think Prozingis, but there was so much hype about Russell.

I do think history is important. This is what our center-power forward lineup looked like for 11 years after Mutombo and Theo (I'm reposting it because I posted it as a correction). More so than for many other teams in the league, we need to see how this plays out - at least up to the trade deadline. And the idea of having to pay Noel to be a backup is propaganda mostly from my neck of the woods in New England.

Main point: It’s simply too soon to make a judgment about Noel and Okafor, any of our players for that matter, until they get some games under their belt.

And never, never trade them for guys like Marcus Smart, a player I like...but who can’t shoot.

2003-04: Dalembert, Kenny Thomas, Mark Jackson
2004-05: Dalembert, C-Webb, Kenny Thomas, Mark Jackson
2005-06: Dalembert, C-Web, Steven Hunter, Lee Nailen
2006-07: Dalembert, C-Webb, Joe Smith, Steven Hunter, Shavlik Randolph
2007-08: Dalembert, Reggie, Thad, Jason Smith
2008-09: Dalembert, Thad, Brand, Theo, Speights, Reggie
2009-10: Dalembert, Thad, Brand, Speights, Jason Smith
2010-11: Hawes, Brand, Thad, Speights, Brackins, Battie
2011-12: Hawes, Brand, Thad, Vucevic, Lavoy, Battie
2012-13: Hawes, Thad, Lavoy, Kwame, Moultrie
2013-14: Hawes, Thad, Lavoy, Orton, Simms, Brandon Davies

You clearly aren't comprehending the conversation I was trying to have with Corey because you kept trying to make the conversation about something else. I said about 10 times that he's young and can improve. With that in mind, please stop referring to me and distorting my points. Thanks.

This is exactly why I don't waste my time giving actual analysis about okafor anymore btw. You cite any numbers or specific example and someone always acts like that is all you are basing your analysis on, like I'm supposed to write a 10,00 word essay every time I want to critique a basketball player.

I have no desire to argue with you, nor do you need to write a 10,000-word analysis. But when you make broad-brush statements like "He's the worst defensive big man I've ever seen get regular minutes on this team," that's not the team I followed over the past 50-plus years and especially in the post-Mutombo period.

Sam Dalembert was our center from the 2003-2004 season onward - for seven years. He had a few decent years, but his career - given all the potential he had - was a waste. But if we're going to use Sam as the benchmark, then compare Okafor with Sam two years from now when Sam was 22 and had first season as a regular.

The fact is: We haven't had a decent big man on the roster for a decade pre-Noel.

There's no need to rush this along. And if Okafor is incapable of learning to play D (i.e., be average), so be it. But to judge him on the basis of playing on a national championship team with Coach K (and being taken out at crunch time; Justise Winslow also played matador defense in the NCAAs) or on the basis of his rookie season in Philly when he was a dumb-ass teenager and had no support on or off the court, that's your right.

[spikeslovechild]

Being a limited offensive big man is different than being a terrible defensive man. Regardless, does anyone here actually think Noel can be a long term starting piece on this team? (Barring a disaster scenario where Embiid never gets healthy and were probably screwed regardless)

Personally, I think You can trade either one, I don't think it's worth the headache to decide which from my POV. Let the market dictate. The other one will be a fine backup center/Embiid insurance.

No. More to the point I don't believe spending the resources necessary to retain him is prudent. If something happens to Embiid we still have Okafor on his rookie deal. We can also shop the reduced section and bring in a defensive big. These type of players always come available.

For me so much has to go wrong to justify keeping Noel it doesn't really warrant consideration and whether to keep Noel is wholly separate from Okafor. The only justifiable reason for not moving Noel is if we are getting lowballed. At some point you have to be willing to walk away from the negotiating table if in Byrans words teams are trying to steal a big from you.

That also sort of raises the question if Noels trade value is low will he still get the kind of major offers I'm sure him and his agent are expecting? Can we resign him for less? I dunno. I do know I want no part of Smart whether that be for Okafor or Noel.

[LloydFree]

Coach declared both Embiid and Noel pure 5-men (obvious but good news nonetheless). Good to know he doesn't plan to play either out of position going forward. I believe a trade is coming soon and will happen before the pre-season starts. I'm going to predict a Nerlens Noel trade to either one of Cleveland, Golden State, Houston or Portland. I'd prefer a move off Okafor, but I only see Charlotte, Chicago or New Orleans as possibilities. I'm pretty sure Noel has the much higher value, so I think he will be the one traded. Either way, as long as they don't trade Noel to Boston, I'm good

[76ciology]

Coach declared both Embiid and Noel pure 5-men (obvious but good news nonetheless). Good to know he doesn't plan to play either out of position going forward. I believe a trade is coming soon and will happen before the pre-season starts. I'm going to predict a Nerlens Noel trade to either one of Cleveland, Golden State, Houston or Portland. I'd prefer a move off Okafor, but I only see Charlotte, Chicago or New Orleans as possibilities. I'm pretty sure Noel has the much higher value, so I think he will be the one traded. Either way, as long as they don't trade Noel to Boston, I'm good

Kind of interesting that BB sees Okafor as not "pure 5 man", or atleast not mention him as being a "pure 5 man."

I also agree that Nerlens is easier to trade and understand why you would trade okafor.

[76ciology]

Being a limited offensive big man is different than being a terrible defensive man. Regardless, does anyone here actually think Noel can be a long term starting piece on this team? (Barring a disaster scenario where Embiid never gets healthy and were probably screwed regardless)

Personally, I think You can trade either one, I don't think it's worth the headache to decide which from my POV. Let the market dictate. The other one will be a fine backup center/Embiid insurance.

No. More to the point I don't believe spending the resources necessary to retain him is prudent. If something happens to Embiid we still have Okafor on his rookie deal. We can also shop the reduced section and bring in a defensive big. These type of players always come available.

For me so much has to go wrong to justify keeping Noel it doesn't really warrant consideration and whether to keep Noel is wholly separate from Okafor. The only justifiable reason for not moving Noel is if we are getting lowballed. At some point you have to be willing to walk away from the negotiating table if in Byrans words teams are trying to steal a big from you.

That also sort of raises the question if Noels trade value is low will he still get the kind of major offers I'm sure him and his agent are expecting? Can we resign him for less? I dunno. I do know I want no part of Smart whether that be for Okafor or Noel.

I want all three bigs to stay more than to trade Noel. Because I honestly think it can work if the coach is creative enough to think outside the box because talent trumps all. And you make a good point on how crappy the return is that makes me want to hold unto them more.

If you believe in Simmons/Embiid then you would also think that we don't need Noel's defense that much that you would pay a max to retain him.

I like what Noel can bring on a team, imagine a second unit with a dime a dozen type playmaking PG like Ish, 3&D or one dimensional scoring wings like marcus thornton (good version), Casspi, Henderson or RoCo and Noel anchoring the D. That's a very workable and effective second unit.

The issue for me is more with the money aspect of retaining him. Where I think you can go for a cheaper rim protector and really spread the money on things you really need.

[LloydFree]

Coach declared both Embiid and Noel pure 5-men (obvious but good news nonetheless). Good to know he doesn't plan to play either out of position going forward. I believe a trade is coming soon and will happen before the pre-season starts. I'm going to predict a Nerlens Noel trade to either one of Cleveland, Golden State, Houston or Portland. I'd prefer a move off Okafor, but I only see Charlotte, Chicago or New Orleans as possibilities. I'm pretty sure Noel has the much higher value, so I think he will be the one traded. Either way, as long as they don't trade Noel to Boston, I'm good

Kind of interesting that BB sees Okafor as not "pure 5 man", or atleast not mention him as being a "pure 5 man."

I also agree that Nerlens is easier to trade and understand why you would trade okafor.

It's not clear what he thinks of Okafor. From what I gather, the reporters at yesterday's luncheon didn't ask about Okafor. Most of the questions reported so far, seemed to be in reference to Embiid.

[MatthewGeigerII]

Brett was on with Barkann on PST yesterday... i don't know if anyone has link to THOSE quotes but they were a little different then the ones coming out on twitter from the luncheon. not contradicting - just more info IMO

going from memory so if anyone finds the direct quotes - feel free to post but

1) barkann did a live Q&A with fans and of course someone asks about nerlens/jah (relating this thread)
- Brett's response was very telling:
- paraphrasing but he said basically Joel, Noel, and Jah will all play the 5 most of the time BECAUSE simmons and saric will occupy most of the minutes at the 4. IF they play a big lineup like SAS, Grizz, etc.. then you could see them go bigger with (i'm guessing jah at the 4) ....
2) he was asked about where simmons plays
- Brett said since he played the 4 his whole life, he will start him there to let him adjust to the league. He said he thinks about him bringing the ball up alot. he also said if dario plays well enough - you COULD see simmons play some 3.
3) he talked about Joel
- sees his best quality being a rim protector. will 100% be on a min restriction - "they've come too far" to just let him go free without caution


and there was other good stuff. of course about him and his beard.

[Sixerscan]

http://www.csnphilly.com/video/brett-brown-updates-status-joel-embiid-ben-simmons-and-state-sixers?guid=LW2IlAr0XoH57OVos5c_1sGfYgsS1V_p

^That's it.

[spikeslovechild]

Brett was on with Barkann on PST yesterday... i don't know if anyone has link to THOSE quotes but they were a little different then the ones coming out on twitter from the luncheon. not contradicting - just more info IMO

going from memory so if anyone finds the direct quotes - feel free to post but

1) barkann did a live Q&A with fans and of course someone asks about nerlens/jah (relating this thread)
- Brett's response was very telling:
- paraphrasing but he said basically Joel, Noel, and Jah will all play the 5 most of the time BECAUSE simmons and saric will occupy most of the minutes at the 4. IF they play a big lineup like SAS, Grizz, etc.. then you could see them go bigger with (i'm guessing jah at the 4) ....
2) he was asked about where simmons plays
- Brett said since he played the 4 his whole life, he will start him there to let him adjust to the league. He said he thinks about him bringing the ball up alot. he also said if dario plays well enough - you COULD see simmons play some 3.
3) he talked about Joel
- sees his best quality being a rim protector. will 100% be on a min restriction - "they've come too far" to just let him go free without caution


and there was other good stuff. of course about him and his beard.

That is a problem. That likely means at some point not only Noel will need to be moved but Okafor as well.

If Brett Brown does this that likely means both Okafor and Noel will sit for long stretches. I don't know why we wouldn't have Simmons prove he can't play the three before moving him to an already crowded 4 but what do I know. Very disappointing.

[MatthewGeigerII]

Brett was on with Barkann on PST yesterday... i don't know if anyone has link to THOSE quotes but they were a little different then the ones coming out on twitter from the luncheon. not contradicting - just more info IMO

going from memory so if anyone finds the direct quotes - feel free to post but

1) barkann did a live Q&A with fans and of course someone asks about nerlens/jah (relating this thread)
- Brett's response was very telling:
- paraphrasing but he said basically Joel, Noel, and Jah will all play the 5 most of the time BECAUSE simmons and saric will occupy most of the minutes at the 4. IF they play a big lineup like SAS, Grizz, etc.. then you could see them go bigger with (i'm guessing jah at the 4) ....
2) he was asked about where simmons plays
- Brett said since he played the 4 his whole life, he will start him there to let him adjust to the league. He said he thinks about him bringing the ball up alot. he also said if dario plays well enough - you COULD see simmons play some 3.
3) he talked about Joel
- sees his best quality being a rim protector. will 100% be on a min restriction - "they've come too far" to just let him go free without caution


and there was other good stuff. of course about him and his beard.

That is a problem. That likely means at some point not only Noel will need to be moved but Okafor as well.

If Brett Brown does this that likely means both Okafor and Noel will sit for long stretches. I don't know why we wouldn't have Simmons prove he can't play the three before moving him to an already crowded 4 but what do I know. Very disappointing.

it also means Holmes is either going to have to play the 4 or go? Brand too?


PF: Simmons, Saric, Holmes/Brand
C: Embiid, Okafor, Noel

[spikeslovechild]

It means both are not going to play unless there is a serious injury. I'm really annoyed right now. You can't throw out a traditional lineup with the amount of bigs currently on the roster and get your best players on the court. Those quotes especially the one regarding Simmons are almost coaching malpractice.

It also makes me wonder whether the idea of playing Okafor and Noel together wasn't Browns at all and given by uptop (Hinkie).

[LloydFree]

So far the 1st day, everything reported is great news. They aren't over thinking anything. Just plain logical plans.

1. Embiid and Noel are pure 5's and he doesn't want Embiid chasing 4's around on defense.
2. He sees Simmons as a 4 or1 and he will start at 4.
3. They are playing Saric and Simmons as teammates and not as opponents in scrimmages. Shows they are attempting to maximize Saric's chance at minutes at the 3 and 4 spots.

[Unbreakable99]

Brett was on with Barkann on PST yesterday... i don't know if anyone has link to THOSE quotes but they were a little different then the ones coming out on twitter from the luncheon. not contradicting - just more info IMO

going from memory so if anyone finds the direct quotes - feel free to post but

1) barkann did a live Q&A with fans and of course someone asks about nerlens/jah (relating this thread)
- Brett's response was very telling:
- paraphrasing but he said basically Joel, Noel, and Jah will all play the 5 most of the time BECAUSE simmons and saric will occupy most of the minutes at the 4. IF they play a big lineup like SAS, Grizz, etc.. then you could see them go bigger with (i'm guessing jah at the 4) ....
2) he was asked about where simmons plays
- Brett said since he played the 4 his whole life, he will start him there to let him adjust to the league. He said he thinks about him bringing the ball up alot. he also said if dario plays well enough - you COULD see simmons play some 3.
3) he talked about Joel
- sees his best quality being a rim protector. will 100% be on a min restriction - "they've come too far" to just let him go free without caution


and there was other good stuff. of course about him and his beard.

That is a problem. That likely means at some point not only Noel will need to be moved but Okafor as well.

If Brett Brown does this that likely means both Okafor and Noel will sit for long stretches. I don't know why we wouldn't have Simmons prove he can't play the three before moving him to an already crowded 4 but what do I know. Very disappointing.

I don't see the problem. You want your best players playing at the position that is optimal for them. You don't move your best players to play a position that doesn't suit them best to make room for a lesser player. I love what Briwn is saying. He just needs to follow through with what he says.

[Unbreakable99]

It means both are not going to play unless there is a serious injury. I'm really annoyed right now. You can't throw out a traditional lineup with the amount of bigs currently on the roster and get your best players on the court. Those quotes especially the one regarding Simmons are almost coaching malpractice.

It also makes me wonder whether the idea of playing Okafor and Noel together wasn't Browns at all and given by uptop (Hinkie).

Again I fail to see why you're annoyed. Why would you want to put Simmons in a position that may not fit him as much? You want him as comfortable as possible. Simmons should start out at the 4.

[Unbreakable99]

So far the 1st day, everything reported is great news. They aren't over thinking anything. Just plain logical plans.

1. Embiid and Noel are pure 5's and he doesn't want Embiid chasing 4's around on defense.
2. He sees Simmons as a 4 or1 and he will start at 4.
3. They are playing Saric and Simmons as teammates and not as opponents in scrimmages. Shows they are attempting to maximize Saric's chance at minutes at the 3 and 4 spot tSo far the 1st day, everything reported is great news. They aren't over thinking anything. Just plain logical plans.

1. Embiid and Noel are pure 5's and he doesn't want Embiid chasing 4's around on defense.
2. He sees Simmons as a 4 or1 and he will start at 4.
3. They are playing Saric and Simmons as teammates and not as opponents in scrimmages. Shows they are attempting to maximize Saric's chance at minutes at the 3 and 4 spots too, and not just as pure backup to Simmons.

Agree with all of this.

[rzzzzz]

1. Simmons will start the season at 4. but Brett has made it clear he wants him to finish the season at pg, if things work out.
2. Defense is great, but somebody has to put the ball in the hole.

[dbodner]

1. Simmons will start the season at 4. but Brett has made it clear he wants him to finish the season at pg, if things work out.
2. Defense is great, but somebody has to put the ball in the hole.

Brett Brown has made it clear from day 1 that he labels positions based on who they guard. Simmons will primarily guard the 4. His ball handling responsibilities will increase throughout the seasons.

[phillynative]

So who starts at the 5. Jahlil or Nerlens?