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Do the Pistons have the greatest "non-MVP" team?

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BdeRegt
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Re: RE: Re: Do the Pistons have the greatest 

Post#21 » by BdeRegt » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:24 am

Pharaoh wrote:
BdeRegt wrote:My case against Ben is simple: Just like in all sports...MVP is an offensive award. You have to do something completely earth shattering to win MVP for defense and not have anyone do anything well offensively. If you compare it to baseball, Pitchers don't win MVP very often, they win the Cy Young (DPOY). Ben Wallace was fairly recognized by winning all the DPOYs.


To the bold: No, the MVP is not an offensive award. It's the Most Valuable Player award, which should take into account every aspect of the game.

They already have an Offensive Player of the Year Award - it's the scoring title!


I'm not saying it should be an offensive only award but I'm saying that it is one if you look at history.
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Re: RE: Re: Do the Pistons have the greatest 

Post#22 » by Todd3 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:10 am

Pharaoh wrote:
Todd3 wrote:Ben finished top 10 in MVP voting in '02 (10th), '03 (8th), and '04 (7th).

Chauncey was 5th in '06.


So Ben never made it into the top 5 - which is the problem!

People might argue he split votes with Chauncey every year...and my rebuttal to that is Durant/Westbrook


Agree. Top 7-8 is basically just as good though. Point was both got heavy consideration in their primes.

Ben should've won in '04 like Ray Lewis won in 2000.

Both had one of the best individual defensive seasons ever in their sports, leading all-great defensive teams to championships. No one else did anything as historically significant in the NBA that year.

When you think of the 2004 NBA, Pistons Defense is the first thing that comes to mind, and Ben Wallace is the first player. He was the MVP of '04. Voters just got it wrong (as is usually the case once the playoffs play out.)

It's a complete joke that he didn't even get DPoY. He should've had 5 straight from '02-'06
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Do the Pistons have the greatest 

Post#23 » by Pharaoh » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:22 am

BdeRegt wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:
BdeRegt wrote:My case against Ben is simple: Just like in all sports...MVP is an offensive award. You have to do something completely earth shattering to win MVP for defense and not have anyone do anything well offensively. If you compare it to baseball, Pitchers don't win MVP very often, they win the Cy Young (DPOY). Ben Wallace was fairly recognized by winning all the DPOYs.


To the bold: No, the MVP is not an offensive award. It's the Most Valuable Player award, which should take into account every aspect of the game.

They already have an Offensive Player of the Year Award - it's the scoring title!


I'm not saying it should be an offensive only award but I'm saying that it is one if you look at history.


Agree with that, which means real fans KNOW the voting is BS and shouldn't scoff and people arguing for Ben Wallace!
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Re: Do the Pistons have the greatest "non-MVP" team? 

Post#24 » by In SVG We Trust » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:23 am

Sheed versatility on D was almost that important on our defense. Big Ben was a juggernaut on D but you can't ignore his flaws on the offensive end.

If you want to pick a player to start your own team, would you choose Harden or Big Ben? At the end of the day, you need players who can put the ball inside the basket.

How ironically sounds a guy who hates KCP defends Ben Wallace was a legit MVP because his defense. A completely nonsense.

And I'm a big fan of Ben, but you guys are letting your Pistons homer fan talks through you.
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Re: RE: Re: Do the Pistons have the greatest "non-MVP" team? 

Post#25 » by Pharaoh » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:08 pm

In SVG We Trust wrote:Sheed versatility on D was almost that important on our defense. Big Ben was a juggernaut on D but you can't ignore his flaws on the offensive end.


At NO stage have I ignored Ben's offensive flaws - I simply stated that if Nash can win 2 MVPs without playing D why can't Ben be considered a legit candidate without playing O....system is BS

If you want to pick a player to start your own team, would you choose Harden or Big Ben? At the end of the day, you need players who can put the ball inside the basket.


I'd argue finding another Ben Wallace is harder to find than finding another Harden...or that it's easier to find scorers than Hall of Fame defensive domination.

But that's me - I obviously value defense more than some

How ironically sounds a guy who hates KCP defends Ben Wallace was a legit MVP because his defense. A completely nonsense.


I know this was directed at Todd but:

You can't compare a quality perimeter defender to a Hall Of Fame interior defender - the big man is so much more valuable

And I'm a big fan of Ben, but you guys are letting your Pistons homer fan talks through you.


I'm no homer - no one has presented a case against Ben being a legit top 5 MVP candidate.

I'm not arguing that he should have won 2 or 3 or 4. I stated that him not being considered a legit top 5 candidate demonstrates how currupt the system actually is.

And no one has argued against that point either.

So...present your cases on both fronts...

Or you could agree thatI'm correct and move on :-)
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Re: Do the Pistons have the greatest "non-MVP" team? 

Post#26 » by Todd3 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:06 pm

Who's quote is that comparing KCP to Ben Wallace?

lmao
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Re: RE: Re: Do the Pistons have the greatest 

Post#27 » by DeKroit » Tue Oct 4, 2016 1:05 am

BdeRegt wrote:
Pharaoh wrote:
BdeRegt wrote:My case against Ben is simple: Just like in all sports...MVP is an offensive award. You have to do something completely earth shattering to win MVP for defense and not have anyone do anything well offensively. If you compare it to baseball, Pitchers don't win MVP very often, they win the Cy Young (DPOY). Ben Wallace was fairly recognized by winning all the DPOYs.


To the bold: No, the MVP is not an offensive award. It's the Most Valuable Player award, which should take into account every aspect of the game.

They already have an Offensive Player of the Year Award - it's the scoring title!


I'm not saying it should be an offensive only award but I'm saying that it is one if you look at history.


Wes Unseld was a MVP and he was far from an offensive juggernaut. Ben Wallace definitely should've had a case as a MVP. It's ridiculous how even some Pistons fans are underrating the impact he had for the Pistons.
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Re: Do the Pistons have the greatest "non-MVP" team? 

Post#28 » by MrBigShot » Tue Oct 4, 2016 1:35 am

I don't think Nash deserved 2 MVPs but his ability to make everybody around him better was really just astounding. Guys like Channing Frye would go to Phoenix and have career years. Nash REALLY elevated his teammates, and although he never won even a conference title, I don't think any of those Suns teams were good enough to make it to the finals anyway. Every time they lost in the post season from 05-10, it was to a superior team.
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Re: Do the Pistons have the greatest "non-MVP" team? 

Post#29 » by Pharaoh » Tue Oct 4, 2016 1:42 am

The fact is offense is valued more over defense and that's why a guy like Nash can win 2 MVPs while Big Ben won none.

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