Boston early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Slava/165bows)

[nowyouknow]

No, I studied him well and also watched him being an AZ fan. I was praying the Suns didn't draft him because he was on some draft boards for them and that somehow Bender would drop. He pretty much was terrible like the last six games, but I'm not going to post all the box scores and give you the #s because you've obviously made up your mind. Good luck to the Celtics. Hope he pans out for you . Very glad he's not in Phx.

Ive reviewed all of Jaylen's stats and he was actually really solid overall in his 18 conference games.

More importantly, Ive watched a lot of game film on him and its pretty apparent that he has the physical tools to be a dominant two way player.

19 year old kids with 30 usage rates are generally going to struggle with efficiency, especially when they aren't pure shooters.

I wish Phoenix the best but I think Chriss looks like the best PF prospect they drafted. Bender has a long ways to go. But then again Phoenix has more time to wait on that development.

I don't think its an accident that Ainge drafted Zizic after having scouting Croatian bigs. I don't think Bender impressed in workouts (and his game tape in Israel was very underwhelming). I didn't see much from Bender in SL either. He is going to have difficulty with NBA athletes.

No offense, but I'll take your scouting with a grain of salt. Bender is certainly going to struggle with adapting to the nba playing against top tier competition to start. Chriss probably moreso. Each can do some unique things, but not enough to get into the lineup and seriously contribute to a good game of nba basketball.

Same with Jaylen. Overall Jaylen played well in the PAC 12, but it was almost all based on pure power and driving. He fouls out, drives without a good handle and turns it over more than he assists (like 1.5 to 1) and shoots sub 30% from 3. He is a super athlete and can make layups and dunk, so those are pluses. Hopefully for your sake he can develop some more skills that help teams in the NBA.

In 18 conference games he actually shot 34.5% from three, and from all accounts shot the ball well in workouts.

The part you seem to omit about Brown is his ability to defend multiple positions and rebound. He had over a 16% defensive rebound rate.

Again, when you have a USG over 30, you're going to turn the ball over and have some issues with efficiency.

[nowyouknow]

Brown has loads of potential but didn't show much when things matter in the tourney when 4 seed Cal played the almighty Hawaii Rainbow Warriors 1-6, 4 pts, 2 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 rebounds, 0 steals, 7 turnovers, and 5 fouls https://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400871271

Bender is more raw, but he has already shown ball handling, passing, and good perimeter defense in summer league. Summer league isn't the greatest test for future ability but he is one of the youngest guys in the league. Yes, he is at least a couple years away and may be a bust, but Brown is far from a sure thing as well.

One game sample though?

I just look at skill sets and Bender looks like a role player through and through. His defense got a lot of hype but he is essentially a poor rebounder who will struggle to defend bigs inside and isn't quick enough to defend perimeter players.


Brown on the other hand is quick enough to defend guards and big and strong enough to defend forwards.

Brown is an excellent ball handler in the open court and relentlessly attacks the basket with excellent footwork. His bugaboo is decision making as a primary ball handler/scorer.

That won't be his role early in Boston.

I think the truth is somewhere in between, perhaps Brown is stronger at this moment and thus a better defender right now (form physical standpoint). But in my opinion that's due to a different approach in development between the US and Europe. If Bender is able to add some muscle to his body, he's capable to defend stretch bigs and 4's, plus the ability to switch on P&R's. That's very valuable.

You're mentioning that Brown has the offensive tools, but personally I had a hard time seeing those in Cali. However, he is a great athlete, perhaps the tools will develop in the next year. That will make him a high potential two way player, where Bender has the potential to be the ultimate team player. Switching on defense, space the floor and make the right decision with the ball (maybe even some playmaking).

Back to topic. I think everybody is underestimating the value of Sullinger's rebounding and Turner's presence with the bench unit. Horford is a great addition and gives them an extra option on the offensive end, but he's steadily declining with his rebounding. Also curious who will replace Turner as the playmaker of the second unit. Will Rozier get the keys? That's a huge responsibility for an inexperienced player. Might work for the Celtics in the long term, but it will probably hurt short term. I'll expect them to finish around a similar win total as last year.

I don't think it's just about Bender adjusting, he needs to build his body up completely. Obviously he is young, but he has narrow shoulders and has a thin frame overall. He also reportedly has never lifted weights.

He has a long way to go in order to be able to defend NBA 4's and from all the tape I've watched of him in Israel and Summer League he genuinely struggles to contain dribble penetration against good athletes.

Your points on Turner and Sullinger are noted. Both of them were excellent rebounders and good passers. The problem for both is that they also were terrible shooters from 3 and were overall very inefficient as scorers, particularly Sullinger.

Rebounding isn't going to be the Celtics strong suit, but the Celtics will be even better defensively moving from Sullinger to Horford. They will have better spacing and even better playmaking at that position as well.

The bench is a young one outside of Gerald Green and likely Jerebko/Amir (whichever player doesn't start, though both could come off the bench if Olynyk starts). Smart, Rozier and Brown will all have opportunities to take on ball handling duties off the bench. Personally, Smart with his ability to take care of the ball (better than 2 to 1 A/TO ratio) will likely assume the majority of the lead guard duties, but Rozier and Brown are both capable of handling the ball and operating out of pick and roll/pop as well.

And Gerald Green will be able to step in and provide a lot of the spot scoring with better shooting/spacing vs. Turner.

Last season the team struggled through the first half of the season while they tried to figure out the David Lee log jammed frontcourt. With Horford added and overall athleticism greatly improved it seems to me that the team is certainly trending upwards. A lot of their core is at that young veteran phase where they are likely to continue improving and fine tuning their games a la Bradley, Crowder, Thomas, Olynyk...

But some of their ability to improve on their win total does rest in the development of Smart, Rozier and Brown. That's one of the most physically/defensively talented 1-2-3 combos off the bench in the NBA. But they are young so we will have to wait and see. The Celtics identity is defense and transition, so I believe that group will be able to make significant waves in those areas.

[bwgood77]

In 18 conference games he actually shot 34.5% from three, and from all accounts shot the ball well in workouts.

The part you seem to omit about Brown is his ability to defend multiple positions and rebound. He had over a 16% defensive rebound rate.

Again, when you have a USG over 30, you're going to turn the ball over and have some issues with efficiency.

In theory he can defend because of his athletic skills but he wasn't that great of a defender. And 34.5% from 3 is barely passable in the NBA, but if that is what you do in cherry picked NCAA games, than I certainly don't expect it to translate to the NBA level.

I don't think it's just about Bender adjusting, he needs to build his body up completely. Obviously he is young, but he has narrow shoulders and has a thin frame overall. He also reportedly has never lifted weights.

He has a long way to go in order to be able to defend NBA 4's and from all the tape I've watched of him in Israel and Summer League he genuinely struggles to contain dribble penetration against good athletes.

He is skinny much like Durant and Dirk coming into the league, so that could be a problem, and will be if he tries to play inside, but now he will play mostly on the perimeter according to coaches, more in a Durant type role, playing some 3 and using his length and surprising quickness for as tall and long as he is. He also is a good ball handler and passer. If he tries to play inside, his strength will be a problem right now, but that's not the plan initially.

[nowyouknow]

In 18 conference games he actually shot 34.5% from three, and from all accounts shot the ball well in workouts.

The part you seem to omit about Brown is his ability to defend multiple positions and rebound. He had over a 16% defensive rebound rate.

Again, when you have a USG over 30, you're going to turn the ball over and have some issues with efficiency.

In theory he can defend because of his athletic skills but he wasn't that great of a defender. And 34.5% from 3 is barely passable in the NBA, but if that is what you do in cherry picked NCAA games, than I certainly don't expect it to translate to the NBA level.

I don't think it's just about Bender adjusting, he needs to build his body up completely. Obviously he is young, but he has narrow shoulders and has a thin frame overall. He also reportedly has never lifted weights.

He has a long way to go in order to be able to defend NBA 4's and from all the tape I've watched of him in Israel and Summer League he genuinely struggles to contain dribble penetration against good athletes.

He is skinny much like Durant and Dirk coming into the league, so that could be a problem, and will be if he tries to play inside, but now he will play mostly on the perimeter according to coaches, more in a Durant type role, playing some 3 and using his length and surprising quickness for as tall and long as he is. He also is a good ball handler and passer. If he tries to play inside, his strength will be a problem right now, but that's not the plan initially.

18 games in a strong conference isn't exactly cherry picking. It's over half a college season. We have seen great slashers like Russ Westbrook and Demar Derozan shoot relatively poorly from the outside and still be highly effective NBA players.

Bender has nowhere near the ball handling or skill level offensively that Durant and Dirk possess, nor has he shown much evidence of their dominant scoring mindset.

Bender is a 4 who can't handle 4's inside on the boards. He is not skilled enough or agile enough to play the 3 on either end.

Bender is a long term project right now. The other concern I have is that he really does project more as a role playing stretch 4 than a dominant go to offensive weapon like Durant or Dirk.

[bwgood77]

In 18 conference games he actually shot 34.5% from three, and from all accounts shot the ball well in workouts.

The part you seem to omit about Brown is his ability to defend multiple positions and rebound. He had over a 16% defensive rebound rate.

Again, when you have a USG over 30, you're going to turn the ball over and have some issues with efficiency.

In theory he can defend because of his athletic skills but he wasn't that great of a defender. And 34.5% from 3 is barely passable in the NBA, but if that is what you do in cherry picked NCAA games, than I certainly don't expect it to translate to the NBA level.

I don't think it's just about Bender adjusting, he needs to build his body up completely. Obviously he is young, but he has narrow shoulders and has a thin frame overall. He also reportedly has never lifted weights.

He has a long way to go in order to be able to defend NBA 4's and from all the tape I've watched of him in Israel and Summer League he genuinely struggles to contain dribble penetration against good athletes.

He is skinny much like Durant and Dirk coming into the league, so that could be a problem, and will be if he tries to play inside, but now he will play mostly on the perimeter according to coaches, more in a Durant type role, playing some 3 and using his length and surprising quickness for as tall and long as he is. He also is a good ball handler and passer. If he tries to play inside, his strength will be a problem right now, but that's not the plan initially.

18 games in a strong conference isn't exactly cherry picking. It's over half a college season. We have seen great slashers like Russ Westbrook and Demar Derozan shoot relatively poorly from the outside and still be highly effective NBA players.

Bender has nowhere near the ball handling or skill level offensively that Durant and Dirk possess, nor has he shown much evidence of their dominant scoring mindset.

Bender is a 4 who can't handle 4's inside on the boards. He is not skilled enough or agile enough to play the 3 on either end.

Bender is a long term project right now. The other concern I have is that he really does project more as a role playing stretch 4 than a dominant go to offensive weapon like Durant or Dirk.

I've watched him play the 3 as have the coaches. He does have those skills, though raw, and yes, he doesn't have the skills of Dirk and Durant, probably 2 of the top 20 players ever. I was using them as comparison about bodies and strength when coming into the league. I think Durant struggled benching a very light weight IIRC.

Bender is not ready to bang inside on the boards with old school tough rebounding 4s, though there are not that many of those type players left. There are quite a few in the west, but he would likely only play the 4 at this time in a small ball lineup.

Brown played ok in conference play, though his stats still are not impressive by any means. We analyzed him quite well on the Suns board. His strength is apparently finishing at the rim, but he wasn't particularly great there either. He was highly rated mostly based on hype and athleticism.

It's good you've convinced yourself he's great and bought into him. Don't know that you need to put down other players you've watched a litte bit of tape on though. For us patient fans with really young guys having to adapt to a new league, country, nba rules, a longer 3 pt line, etc, we won't judge him much for a couple years. There are some impatient types, but with a guy like him it will likely require patience. He's a bit younger than a guy like Porzingis was coming into the league, though their games are nothing alike either.

[HartfordWhalers]

I mean I really would have gone Murray.

We need to get some Denver fans involved here now.

(And then we can circle back to Dunn and loop Minnesota back in, and Chicago via Butler trades)

[nowyouknow]

In theory he can defend because of his athletic skills but he wasn't that great of a defender. And 34.5% from 3 is barely passable in the NBA, but if that is what you do in cherry picked NCAA games, than I certainly don't expect it to translate to the NBA level.



He is skinny much like Durant and Dirk coming into the league, so that could be a problem, and will be if he tries to play inside, but now he will play mostly on the perimeter according to coaches, more in a Durant type role, playing some 3 and using his length and surprising quickness for as tall and long as he is. He also is a good ball handler and passer. If he tries to play inside, his strength will be a problem right now, but that's not the plan initially.

18 games in a strong conference isn't exactly cherry picking. It's over half a college season. We have seen great slashers like Russ Westbrook and Demar Derozan shoot relatively poorly from the outside and still be highly effective NBA players.

Bender has nowhere near the ball handling or skill level offensively that Durant and Dirk possess, nor has he shown much evidence of their dominant scoring mindset.

Bender is a 4 who can't handle 4's inside on the boards. He is not skilled enough or agile enough to play the 3 on either end.

Bender is a long term project right now. The other concern I have is that he really does project more as a role playing stretch 4 than a dominant go to offensive weapon like Durant or Dirk.

I've watched him play the 3 as have the coaches. He does have those skills, though raw, and yes, he doesn't have the skills of Dirk and Durant, probably 2 of the top 20 players ever. I was using them as comparison about bodies and strength when coming into the league. I think Durant struggled benching a very light weight IIRC.

Bender is not ready to bang inside on the boards with old school tough rebounding 4s, though there are not that many of those type players left. There are quite a few in the west, but he would likely only play the 4 at this time in a small ball lineup.

Brown played ok in conference play, though his stats still are not impressive by any means. We analyzed him quite well on the Suns board. His strength is apparently finishing at the rim, but he wasn't particularly great there either. He was highly rated mostly based on hype and athleticism.

It's good you've convinced yourself he's great and bought into him. Don't know that you need to put down other players you've watched a litte bit of tape on though. For us patient fans with really young guys having to adapt to a new league, country, nba rules, a longer 3 pt line, etc, we won't judge him much for a couple years. There are some impatient types, but with a guy like him it will likely require patience. He's a bit younger than a guy like Porzingis was coming into the league, though their games are nothing alike either.

I see you've convinced yourself on Bender. In this case, I see "patience" as a code word for raw prospect who's years away from contributing to winning.

He has a good head on his shoulders and has length and shooting touch. But he is certainly not capable of defending the 3 or playing the 3 in any real capacity unless he dramatically improves his ability to handle the ball and defend the perimeter.

If you think that it's more likely that Bender can learn to play the 3 against the best athletes in the world in the NBA than it is for possibly the most athletic player in the draft to become a more consistent finisher around the rim, I think it's fair to say we should agree to disagree.

[nowyouknow]

I mean I really would have gone Murray.

We need to get some Denver fans involved here now.

(And then we can circle back to Dunn and loop Minnesota back in, and Chicago via Butler trades)

The Celtics place a high priority on defensive ability.

While Murray has a very high ceiling as an offensive player, his defensive ceiling is very much limited, and there is some bust potential with Murray based on his lack of measurable athleticism.

The greater issue is that there really wasn't going to be an opportunity for Murray to play. He isn't beating out Bradley for minutes on a team looking to contend with Cleveland. And Boston also has Rozier, Smart, and Gerald Green all looking to earn minutes in the backcourt.

Brown is going to be the backup SF and will also play at the PF in small ball lineups. So there is far more opportunity available there. And Brown is NBA ready defensively and physically unlike both Murray and Bender who are going to take years to get to the point where they can defend at a NBA playoff caliber.

[bwgood77]

I see you've convinced yourself on Bender. In this case, I see "patience" as a code word for raw prospect who's years away from contributing to winning.

He has a good head on his shoulders and has length and shooting touch. But he is certainly not capable of defending the 3 or playing the 3 in any real capacity unless he dramatically improves his ability to handle the ball and defend the perimeter.

If you think that it's more likely that Bender can learn to play the 3 against the best athletes in the world in the NBA than it is for possibly the most athletic player in the draft to become a more consistent finisher around the rim, I think it's fair to say we should agree to disagree.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Ball handling, passing and perimeter defense are his current strengths. The guy was a PG growing up.

He's a boom/bust prospect and Phx needed to swing for the fences. I wanted him based on what I hope he can be. I think he will learn have to play inside IF that is going to be his future roll, which it might not be. He is currently more comfortable on the perimeter, much like other guys that has his kind of length and agility coming into the league (Durant or Kawhi). You're trying to pigeon hole him into something he isn't and it's far too early to do that. The guy hasn't played in an NBA game yet and you have convinced yourself what he is going to be.

I don't know where Bender or Brown will end up. Brown might be a good defender who can drive to the hoop and finish. Bender could turn into a lot of things but he may be a bust. His best skills now are ball handling, running the floor, passing and perimeter defense. I'm not sure what you've watched on him but it must not be much.

You certainly are not someone worth having an informed discussion on Bender. You may know a bit more about Brown, but he hasn't stepped on an NBA floor either. Both guys could be busts, both guys could be great, or maybe one is great and one is a bust.

But I wouldn't try having an informed discussion with someone knowledgeable about Bender because you are likely just wasting the other person's time. I don't feel like wasting any more time on this though.

[Mystical Apples]

I mean I really would have gone Murray.

We need to get some Denver fans involved here now.

(And then we can circle back to Dunn and loop Minnesota back in, and Chicago via Butler trades)

And Brown is NBA ready defensively and physically unlike both Murray and Bender who are going to take years to get to the point where they can defend at a NBA playoff caliber.

What's funny is I'd absolutely compare him to Murray....Dejounte Murray.

[nowyouknow]

I see you've convinced yourself on Bender. In this case, I see "patience" as a code word for raw prospect who's years away from contributing to winning.

He has a good head on his shoulders and has length and shooting touch. But he is certainly not capable of defending the 3 or playing the 3 in any real capacity unless he dramatically improves his ability to handle the ball and defend the perimeter.

If you think that it's more likely that Bender can learn to play the 3 against the best athletes in the world in the NBA than it is for possibly the most athletic player in the draft to become a more consistent finisher around the rim, I think it's fair to say we should agree to disagree.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Ball handling, passing and perimeter defense are his current strengths. The guy was a PG growing up.

He's a boom/bust prospect and Phx needed to swing for the fences. I wanted him based on what I hope he can be. I think he will learn have to play inside IF that is going to be his future roll, which it might not be. He is currently more comfortable on the perimeter, much like other guys that has his kind of length and agility coming into the league (Durant or Kawhi). You're trying to pigeon hole him into something he isn't and it's far too early to do that. The guy hasn't played in an NBA game yet and you have convinced yourself what he is going to be.

I don't know where Bender or Brown will end up. Brown might be a good defender who can drive to the hoop and finish. Bender could turn into a lot of things but he may be a bust. His best skills now are ball handling, running the floor, passing and perimeter defense. I'm not sure what you've watched on him but it must not be much.

You certainly are not someone worth having an informed discussion on Bender. You may know a bit more about Brown, but he hasn't stepped on an NBA floor either. Both guys could be busts, both guys could be great, or maybe one is great and one is a bust.

But I wouldn't try having an informed discussion with someone knowledgeable about Bender because you are likely just wasting the other person's time. I don't feel like wasting any more time on this though.

I've watched a good deal of Bender - I've actually was crazy enough to watch 3-4 of his games in the Israeli league, watched as many highlight clips as possible of his international play and caught 2 and a half or so games during SL.

He might be a decent ball handler and passer for a PF, but he certainly isn't a plus ball handler or passer at the SF position.

He is a very willing and intelligent defender but he definitely struggled adjusting to NBA speed and is not currently capable of containing penetration against NBASL caliber players, never mind NBA caliber SF's. He may develop this ability in time, but he certainly does not currently have the ability to defend that position.

And he struggled rebounding his position (PF) in Israel... So he certainly can't rebound that position at the NBA level.

Agree to disagree.

[basketballwacko2]

I gave them a B. It could turn into an A or even an A+ if Jayen Brown works out for them. That said they were drafting in a rough spot at #3. I would have went with Dunn or Bender and then looked for the trade. Trading the 2 high 2nds might come back to haunt the Celts if those guys work out, the other 2nds Jackson and Bentyl I like.

Someone said they need to consolidate, no question of that they have lots of prospects and still have a lot of draft picks coming. They also need to draft better. Past picks have been busts, Young and Rozier, although they are still very young they need playing time to develop. The Celts now have about 5 point guards.


52-54 wins as long as they stay healthy. 2nd in the east.

[jmr07019]

Bender over Brown ..... LOL

[loserX]

Bender over Brown ..... LOL

Please don't bump year-old threads, especially if that's the extent of your contribution.

Thanks,
loserX