Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 6

[dckingsfan]

I don't think spacing is going to be a significant problem for the Bulls, because they have guys who can shoot all through their roster - even if Wade and Rondo aren't 3 point marksmen. I'd call them a 45-50 win team in the still bad Eastern Con.

I think that leaves you with Cleveland, Toronto, Boston, Chicago, Charlotte and Detroit fighting for those top 6 spots, am I sleeping on someone?

[closg00]

Holy Moly the Greek Freak just got paid. 4-years $100 Million.

[payitforward]

I don't think spacing is going to be a significant problem for the Bulls, because they have guys who can shoot all through their roster - even if Wade and Rondo aren't 3 point marksmen. I'd call them a 45-50 win team in the still bad Eastern Con.

I think that leaves you with Cleveland, Toronto, Boston, Chicago, Charlotte and Detroit fighting for those top 6 spots, am I sleeping on someone?

...which would leave Indiana, Miami & Atlanta -- all of whom made the playoffs last year -- scrapping to repeat.

Atlanta lost Horford and Teague. But they picked up Dwight Howard, and they'll have Splitter for a full season as well. Teague wasn't/isn't great, but I'm not sure Schroeder showed anywhere near enough consistently to be sure he'll fill those medium-sized shoes. And, behind Teague is... Malcolm Delaney? Hmmmmm....

The rest of the team is very solid, however. Not sure Atlanta will fall far from where they were last year.

[Ruzious]

Holy Moly the Greek Freak just got paid. 4-years $100 Million.

Milwaukee fans are very pleased. He's actually getting less than the max - only about 6 mil less over the 4 years - but it's seen as a nice gesture on his part. Most Bucks fans would have preferred him take the max if it meant he'd take a 5 year deal.

[Ruzious]

I don't think spacing is going to be a significant problem for the Bulls, because they have guys who can shoot all through their roster - even if Wade and Rondo aren't 3 point marksmen. I'd call them a 45-50 win team in the still bad Eastern Con.

I think that leaves you with Cleveland, Toronto, Boston, Chicago, Charlotte and Detroit fighting for those top 6 spots, am I sleeping on someone?

...which would leave Indiana, Miami & Atlanta -- all of whom made the playoffs last year -- scrapping to repeat.

Atlanta lost Horford and Teague. But they picked up Dwight Howard, and they'll have Splitter for a full season as well. Teague wasn't/isn't great, but I'm not sure Schroeder showed anywhere near enough consistently to be sure he'll fill those medium-sized shoes. And, behind Teague is... Malcolm Delaney? Hmmmmm....

The rest of the team is very solid, however. Not sure Atlanta will fall far from where they were last year.

I also think people have overrated Schroeder. He has spurts where he looks good, but he's not a good shooter, doesn't really excel at anything, and I'm not sure he's strong enough to hold up as a full-time starter. The questions with Howard and Splitter are - are they going to stay healthy? The older they get, the less likely the answer's going to be yes, but they actually got a good deal on Howard, imo.

[doclinkin]

I'd love to hear what some others think -- who had the best off-season? Not necessarily one team, but overall who did well by themselves?

Utah is intriguing to me. I expect they pick up a few games that the Thunder and Spurs drop. I like George HIll added to that roster, they are going to be a tough defensive squad, and an interesting experiment in the Go-Big small ball counter to the metagame. Diaw is a help actually, as a big who can pass over a double team, subbing in for Gobert or Derrick.


On the Big counter. There's an angle here I'm messing around with, following the ORb discussion we bashed around in the Ernie Evaluation thread. We don't have the personnel to make it work right now, but there's a next phase game that can be exploited with a dynamic active rebounders at all positions who willingly swing it to open three point shooters or drop it inside. I want bigs who pass, rebound, and have good steal numbers relative to their postion (heads up, good hands). And who recover quickly in transition. Nerlens Noel has a role in this league.

[dckingsfan]

I'd love to hear what some others think -- who had the best off-season? Not necessarily one team, but overall who did well by themselves?

Utah is intriguing to me. I expect they pick up a few games that the Thunder and Spurs drop. I like George HIll added to that roster, they are going to be a tough defensive squad, and an interesting experiment in the Go-Big small ball counter to the metagame. Diaw is a help actually, as a big who can pass over a double team, subbing in for Gobert or Derrick.

On the Big counter. There's an angle here I'm messing around with, following the ORb discussion we bashed around in the Ernie Evaluation thread. We don't have the personnel to make it work right now, but there's a next phase game that can be exploited with a dynamic active rebounders at all positions who willingly swing it to open three point shooters or drop it inside. I want bigs who pass, rebound, and have good steal numbers relative to their postion (heads up, good hands). And who recover quickly in transition. Nerlens Noel has a role in this league.

I think Minny. I think the coaching change and their youngsters growing up will get them the largest net win increase this coming season.

[payitforward]

I'm kind of interested in the 3 EC teams that, for so long now, have been in the "going to get better" column -- with no idea when that was going to happen: Milwaukee, Orlando & (in a different way) Philly. Maybe you could make it 4 teams, adding the Knicks.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I really don't understand Orlando trading Oladipo, Ilyasova & Sabonis for Ibaka. Now, I like Ibaka -- but he's gone downhill the last few seasons, and I can't help thinking Orlando overpaid. Especially w/ Ibaka in his contract year. Whereas Oladipo still has his prime in front of him, and Sabonis is only 20.

Having signed Biyombo, I could have easily understood their trading Vucevic, who has plateaued as a meh+ player, and re-signing Dedmon. Obviously, who knows what they could have gotten for Vucevic, but people do seem to regard him as, to my mind at least, somewhat better than he really is.

Orlando seems to want to do a partial reboot -- having also dealt Tobias Harris for basically absolutely nothing in return. I don't get it.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I'm not convinced that it will work out for the best, but I get what the Magic are trying to do. As a team, they were really in a position where they needed to pick their guys and decide who they believed in long term the most. I don't think it was realistic for them to keep all 3 of Fournier, Oladipo and Hezonja - they really needed to settle on who they believed had the best potential as starters long term. I also don't think it was particularly realistic to keep Oladipo and Payton as both guys are so ball dominant and while Oladipo can shoot a bit, he isn't even really a good shooter and the combination of the two makes for a somewhat problematic pair unless they stock shooting up front, which they would have to give up assets to get in the first place, particularly given Aaron Gordon and now Biyombo offering nothing in the way of spacing up front. Same goes for Harris, who I think they overpaid for a bit last offseason, yet he stood right in the way of Fournier, Hezonja and Gordon.

Could the Magic have gotten more for their players? I tend to think they overpaid in a rather bad way, but I do also realize that they were in tough, because not many teams are actively looking to trade the best player in a trade, particularly not if they aren't willing to take on bad attitudes or the like, which can be a dangerous game on such a young team. And basically almost any player they take back tends to get in the way of another player they want to give an opportunity to. Even Ibaka basically immediately puts Gordon in a tough spot this upcoming season, although Ibaka sliding and becoming a free agent may not worry them so much if they believe in Gordon.

What makes or breaks the Magic here is if they bet on the right guys. Would they have been better off keeping some of the guys they traded and instead dumping some of their less proven guys who may never be as good as the guys they moved? It's tough to say, but personally I tend to think the Magic got it right on Harris, not that he's a bad player, because he definitely isn't, but he's more of a Jeff Green/Rudy Gay type player who isn't quite as good as his volume stats would suggest. Oladipo, I like a little more, but I also feel he's a touch overrated at this point; he isn't a PG and he isn't a great SG, either - he's more of a utility guy than a star. That said, while I like Fournier, Gordon, Hezonja, Payton, etc. to varying degrees, I don't see any bigtime stars there, either. If I'm wrong, the Magic will come out fine. If I'm right, the Magic might have been in a situation where they didn't really have any good options and chose to wipe some of the slate clean, which is a danger in rebuilding.

Personally, I see the Magic and Bucks as modern versions of the old school Clippers teams with Odom, QRich, Maggette, Brand, etc. who never quite put things together despite a lot of so called experts loving them every year. In terms of trying to win this coming season, I like what the Magic have done more. I see more floor spacing on their wings where the Bucks just have Middleton, and while Giannis is really good, he's very much in the vicinity of a young Odom, or a young Kirilenko with less defense. I like Payton more than MCW, although I think they have similar weaknesses. And while the Bucks have scoring up front in Parker and Monroe, Vucevic isn't half bad, and Biyombo/Ibaka/Gordon is a lot better on the defensive side of things. I'm not sure the Magic make the playoffs, but they should have good interior defense and reasonable wing play on both sides of the ball. Their season is probably make or break on the play of Payton and Fournier, though, and I'm not sure I believe in Payton enough at this point.

[payitforward]

A lot of thinking went into that, ILD, thanks.

The Magic started last season strong then fell off radically -- do I remember that right? What happened? As well, what was their record after giving Harris away?

If they don't manage to re-sign Ibaka, they'll have given away an awful lot of young talent -- for zip in return!

[I_Like_Dirt]

That's the thing about what the Magic have done: they really don't have any net whatsoever if things go wrong at this point. Their other situations all had better netting to save them from a hard fall, but the reality is that if they had to hit those nets anyway, they were just as likely to get tangled in them. I wouldn't have done what the Magic did, myself, but I probably would have been after something similar. I think they'd have been extremely well served to have been hunting for future 1sts, even late 1sts while avoiding the minefield of 1sts that will turn into 2nd rounders, for some of their castoffs. They played big for Horford and seemed to have pulled the trigger on the Ibaka trade when they realized they weren't likely to get him, and they played for Millsap, too, but read the tea leaves right there as well. That said, guys like Jeff Green and Rudy Gay have been pretty exposed in terms of their actual NBA value lately, and I don't think Harris is much different. It's really just that Ibaka package that was a brutally steep price to pay. With Vogel as their coach, and a solid frontline of Ibaka, Biyombo, Vucevic and Gordon, I think their defense should be really good, at least, and the Pacers last season were a pretty awful team on offense and still made the playoffs.

[payitforward]

With Middleton injured, the Bucks just traded Tyler Ennis to Houston for Michael Beasley. Beasley is on a 1-year minimum contract. If he is good, he'll be gone, if he's bad he'll be gone too.

I defy anybody to explain the "strategy" the Milwaukee Bucks are employing to build their team. They gave Teletovic and Dellavedova over $20m a year combined. Huh? Teletovic hasn't had a single good season, and Dellavedova is way over-rated. Instead of maxing Antetokounmpo for 5 years, they signed him for 4 years.

[payitforward]

That's the thing about what the Magic have done: they really don't have any net whatsoever if things go wrong at this point. Their other situations all had better netting to save them from a hard fall, but the reality is that if they had to hit those nets anyway, they were just as likely to get tangled in them. I wouldn't have done what the Magic did, myself, but I probably would have been after something similar. I think they'd have been extremely well served to have been hunting for future 1sts, even late 1sts while avoiding the minefield of 1sts that will turn into 2nd rounders, for some of their castoffs. They played big for Horford and seemed to have pulled the trigger on the Ibaka trade when they realized they weren't likely to get him, and they played for Millsap, too, but read the tea leaves right there as well. That said, guys like Jeff Green and Rudy Gay have been pretty exposed in terms of their actual NBA value lately, and I don't think Harris is much different. It's really just that Ibaka package that was a brutally steep price to pay. With Vogel as their coach, and a solid frontline of Ibaka, Biyombo, Vucevic and Gordon, I think their defense should be really good, at least, and the Pacers last season were a pretty awful team on offense and still made the playoffs.

Whether or not Indiana made the playoffs last year doesn't seem relevant to Orlando's moves. Harris played very well with them, and he played very well with Detroit as well. Plus, he's still young -- turned 24 a couple of months ago. He looks likely to have a long, strong NBA career. And they gave him away for nothing -- zip, zero, nada -- in return.

Ibaka is a roll of the dice, and being in his contract year if he plays well they'll have to break the bank to retain him -- i.e. he doesn't help financially or not much. Doesn't help solve the problem of which young guy they pay to keep.

They've definitely helped OKC !!

[payitforward]

Rasual Butler -- "I'm a perennial; I bloom every Fall" -- will work out w/ the Wolves. I don't see any room for him on their roster. I'd rather have Butler than Thornton. A lot rather.

Minny has now signed Butler -- non-guaranteed camp deal.

His last 3 seasons in the NBA, he's made a team out of training camp. Got to hand it to that guy!

[Ruzious]

With Middleton injured, the Bucks just traded Tyler Ennis to Houston for Michael Beasley. Beasley is on a 1-year minimum contract. If he is good, he'll be gone, if he's bad he'll be gone too.

I defy anybody to explain the "strategy" the Milwaukee Bucks are employing to build their team. They gave Teletovic and Dellavedova over $20m a year combined. Huh? Teletovic hasn't had a single good season, and Dellavedova is way over-rated. Instead of maxing Antetokounmpo for 5 years, they signed him for 4 years.

And maybe their biggest head-scratcher was re-signing Mason Plumlee for 4/50. With him, Monroe, and Henson, they now have 3 incomplete centers signed for more than 10 mil per year each. They're currently trying to trade Monroe. (I'm hearing Boston has some interest.)

I think the Teletovic acquisition made sense. He's roughly the same player that Ryan Anderson is, and Anderson signed for 4/80. So 3/31.5 is a bargain, relatively speaking. He doesn't just make a high percentage of his 3 point attempts; he takes a large volume of them. You have to do both to really stretch a defense.

Giving Delly 4/38.4 didn't make much sense to me. He's a backup PG. They already had MCW - who also should be a backup PG. That did make Ennis available, and I like the move for Beasley. Ennis is limited, and he was likely going to be affixed to the bench in Milwaukee. The light may have gone on for Beasley at 26 - considering his per 40 averages with Houston were 27.7 points and 10.7 rebounds while shooting 51.4% from the field. He could certainly be a productive player off the bench. Considering he was a 2nd pick in the draft after a great year in college, it's worth taking a risk on him - some folks take longer to mature on and off the court - and the cost was small. I like the trade and disagree with the assumption that he's automatically gone after the season. Milwaukee's got a 6'11 freak who can play any position - that gives them the ability to play all kinds of lineups.

Milwaukee's defense this season... especially when Henson and MCW aren't on the floor... wow, they make Indiana's look good.

[payitforward]

With Middleton injured, the Bucks just traded Tyler Ennis to Houston for Michael Beasley. Beasley is on a 1-year minimum contract. If he is good, he'll be gone, if he's bad he'll be gone too.

I defy anybody to explain the "strategy" the Milwaukee Bucks are employing to build their team. They gave Teletovic and Dellavedova over $20m a year combined. Huh? Teletovic hasn't had a single good season, and Dellavedova is way over-rated. Instead of maxing Antetokounmpo for 5 years, they signed him for 4 years.

And maybe their biggest head-scratcher was re-signing Mason Plumlee for 4/50. With him, Monroe, and Henson, they now have 3 incomplete centers signed for more than 10 mil per year each. They're currently trying to trade Monroe. (I'm hearing Boston has some interest.)

I think the Teletovic acquisition made sense. He's roughly the same player that Ryan Anderson is, and Anderson signed for 4/80. So 3/31.5 is a bargain, relatively speaking. He doesn't just make a high percentage of his 3 point attempts; he takes a large volume of them. You have to do both to really stretch a defense.

Giving Delly 4/38.4 didn't make much sense to me. He's a backup PG. They already had MCW - who also should be a backup PG. That did make Ennis available, and I like the move for Beasley. Ennis is limited, and he was likely going to be affixed to the bench in Milwaukee. The light may have gone on for Beasley at 26 - considering his per 40 averages with Houston were 27.7 points and 10.7 rebounds while shooting 51.4% from the field. He could certainly be a productive player off the bench. Considering he was a 2nd pick in the draft after a great year in college, it's worth taking a risk on him - some folks take longer to mature on and off the court - and the cost was small. I like the trade and disagree with the assumption that he's automatically gone after the season. Milwaukee's got a 6'11 freak who can play any position - that gives them the ability to play all kinds of lineups.

Milwaukee's defense this season... especially when Henson and MCW aren't on the floor... wow, they make Indiana's look good.

Although I agree they have a weird assortment of Centers, I actually don't mind the Plumlee deal all that much. He's played well 3 years in a row, and $12.5m/year isn't what it used to be (!)

Teletovic posted a nice TS% last year, it's true, but when a guy is on the floor, you get everything he does, and he is so incredibly awful at so many other things.... He played the 4 and averaged 7 boards per 40 minutes. Tho he scored more than e.g. Dudley for us, he was actually less productive at the 4 than Jared was for us, and Jared wasn't very productive!

Every year I or you or someone says "maybe the light came on for Beasley." Well... maybe this time it happens. Hope so. But, if so, he'll likely be gone.

[verbal8]

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I really don't understand Orlando trading Oladipo, Ilyasova & Sabonis for Ibaka. Now, I like Ibaka -- but he's gone downhill the last few seasons, and I can't help thinking Orlando overpaid. Especially w/ Ibaka in his contract year. Whereas Oladipo still has his prime in front of him, and Sabonis is only 20.

Not saying that Orlando executed it well, but I think they were trying to consolidate some of their young talent for a star.

[payitforward]

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I really don't understand Orlando trading Oladipo, Ilyasova & Sabonis for Ibaka. Now, I like Ibaka -- but he's gone downhill the last few seasons, and I can't help thinking Orlando overpaid. Especially w/ Ibaka in his contract year. Whereas Oladipo still has his prime in front of him, and Sabonis is only 20.

Not saying that Orlando executed it well, but I think they were trying to consolidate some of their young talent for a star.

I guess. But Ibaka isn't a star. And his play has gone downhill.

Not suggesting he couldn't turn it around -- but they paid for him as if it wasn't an issue! A great trade for OKC, that's for sure.

[Ruzious]

With Middleton injured, the Bucks just traded Tyler Ennis to Houston for Michael Beasley. Beasley is on a 1-year minimum contract. If he is good, he'll be gone, if he's bad he'll be gone too.

I defy anybody to explain the "strategy" the Milwaukee Bucks are employing to build their team. They gave Teletovic and Dellavedova over $20m a year combined. Huh? Teletovic hasn't had a single good season, and Dellavedova is way over-rated. Instead of maxing Antetokounmpo for 5 years, they signed him for 4 years.

And maybe their biggest head-scratcher was re-signing Mason Plumlee for 4/50. With him, Monroe, and Henson, they now have 3 incomplete centers signed for more than 10 mil per year each. They're currently trying to trade Monroe. (I'm hearing Boston has some interest.)

I think the Teletovic acquisition made sense. He's roughly the same player that Ryan Anderson is, and Anderson signed for 4/80. So 3/31.5 is a bargain, relatively speaking. He doesn't just make a high percentage of his 3 point attempts; he takes a large volume of them. You have to do both to really stretch a defense.

Giving Delly 4/38.4 didn't make much sense to me. He's a backup PG. They already had MCW - who also should be a backup PG. That did make Ennis available, and I like the move for Beasley. Ennis is limited, and he was likely going to be affixed to the bench in Milwaukee. The light may have gone on for Beasley at 26 - considering his per 40 averages with Houston were 27.7 points and 10.7 rebounds while shooting 51.4% from the field. He could certainly be a productive player off the bench. Considering he was a 2nd pick in the draft after a great year in college, it's worth taking a risk on him - some folks take longer to mature on and off the court - and the cost was small. I like the trade and disagree with the assumption that he's automatically gone after the season. Milwaukee's got a 6'11 freak who can play any position - that gives them the ability to play all kinds of lineups.

Milwaukee's defense this season... especially when Henson and MCW aren't on the floor... wow, they make Indiana's look good.

Although I agree they have a weird assortment of Centers, I actually don't mind the Plumlee deal all that much. He's played well 3 years in a row, and $12.5m/year isn't what it used to be (!)

Teletovic posted a nice TS% last year, it's true, but when a guy is on the floor, you get everything he does, and he is so incredibly awful at so many other things.... He played the 4 and averaged 7 boards per 40 minutes. Tho he scored more than e.g. Dudley for us, he was actually less productive at the 4 than Jared was for us, and Jared wasn't very productive!

Every year I or you or someone says "maybe the light came on for Beasley." Well... maybe this time it happens. Hope so. But, if so, he'll likely be gone.

There's a premium on LEGITAMATE 3 point shooters, because they open up the floor for their teammates. That's why Anderson got paid a TON. And given what Anderson got, Teletubby was a value purchase.

[Dat2U]

And maybe their biggest head-scratcher was re-signing Mason Plumlee for 4/50. With him, Monroe, and Henson, they now have 3 incomplete centers signed for more than 10 mil per year each. They're currently trying to trade Monroe. (I'm hearing Boston has some interest.)

I think the Teletovic acquisition made sense. He's roughly the same player that Ryan Anderson is, and Anderson signed for 4/80. So 3/31.5 is a bargain, relatively speaking. He doesn't just make a high percentage of his 3 point attempts; he takes a large volume of them. You have to do both to really stretch a defense.

Giving Delly 4/38.4 didn't make much sense to me. He's a backup PG. They already had MCW - who also should be a backup PG. That did make Ennis available, and I like the move for Beasley. Ennis is limited, and he was likely going to be affixed to the bench in Milwaukee. The light may have gone on for Beasley at 26 - considering his per 40 averages with Houston were 27.7 points and 10.7 rebounds while shooting 51.4% from the field. He could certainly be a productive player off the bench. Considering he was a 2nd pick in the draft after a great year in college, it's worth taking a risk on him - some folks take longer to mature on and off the court - and the cost was small. I like the trade and disagree with the assumption that he's automatically gone after the season. Milwaukee's got a 6'11 freak who can play any position - that gives them the ability to play all kinds of lineups.

Milwaukee's defense this season... especially when Henson and MCW aren't on the floor... wow, they make Indiana's look good.

Although I agree they have a weird assortment of Centers, I actually don't mind the Plumlee deal all that much. He's played well 3 years in a row, and $12.5m/year isn't what it used to be (!)

Teletovic posted a nice TS% last year, it's true, but when a guy is on the floor, you get everything he does, and he is so incredibly awful at so many other things.... He played the 4 and averaged 7 boards per 40 minutes. Tho he scored more than e.g. Dudley for us, he was actually less productive at the 4 than Jared was for us, and Jared wasn't very productive!

Every year I or you or someone says "maybe the light came on for Beasley." Well... maybe this time it happens. Hope so. But, if so, he'll likely be gone.

There's a premium on LEGITAMATE 3 point shooters, because they open up the floor for their teammates. That's why Anderson got paid a TON. And given what Anderson got, Teletubby was a value purchase.

I wasn't crazy about the Teletovic signing but I didn't have a problem with the Delly signing. Delly is a perfect fit with ball dominant wing in the Greek Freak. He's a knock down 3 pt shooter and he works his ass off on the defensive end. He should start IMO. Carter-Williams can defend the position well too but offensively he's still a work in progress as a PG and can't hit open shots.

The big problem for Milwaukee, outside of losing Middleton who is arguably their most valuable player is Jabari Parker and how he fits on that front line. I think he's stuck b/w positions. He hasn't shown he can defend either 3s or 4s nor is he an effective shooter from deep. I don't think you can play Monroe or Henson with him and expect it to work. Maybe Plumlee gives you enough defensively to put Jabari at the 4 but he's still not spacing the floor there. He looks like a 20 pt scorer but does he make his team better? I have serious doubts. I would have tried to deal him this off-season while he's still is highly regarded with two years left on his rookie deal. Would the Lakers have dealt the rights of Brandon Ingram and filler for Parker. I dunno but I think he still has good value around the league. I just don't see him being a huge difference maker in terms of wins & losses.

Outside of that, the Middleton injury I think is too much for the Bucks to overcome. He was their best two-way player. I had Milwaukee surprising and getting a playoff spot, now I have them pegged around 35-37 wins.