Josh Norman overrated but Panthers secondary struggling

[orlandomanic]

Josh Norman among the league leaders in yards allowed for a cornerback this year and is captain of the 28th ranked secondary of the league but his absence for the Carolina defense has caused a huge impact that Carolina might not be able to get away from.

Has this turned out to be a lose lose situation for both sides?

[Otis Driftwood]

I'll just put this here... from NFL.com - the bible for ranking cornerbacks weekly.

Week 4 cornerback rankings: Ike Taylor's Top 10

1) Richard Sherman, Seattle Seahawks (Last week's ranking: 1)
2) Marcus Peters, Kansas City Chiefs (Last week's ranking: 7)
3) Patrick Peterson, Arizona Cardinals (Last week's ranking: 2)
4) Chris Harris Jr., Denver Broncos (Last week's ranking: 4)
5) Josh Norman, Washington Redskins (Last week's ranking: 6)

People can say what they want about this guy, but he just does his job. The hyped-up matchup against Odell Beckham Jr. was all that I expected. Beckham racked up 107 yards on 10 targets vs. Norman, so the Giants' star definitely won this battle. However, Norman didn't give up a touchdown against him and went home with a "W." So the way I see it, Norman won the war.

6) Aqib Talib, Denver Broncos (Last week's ranking: 3)
7) Johnathan Joseph, Houston Texans (Last week's ranking: 9)
8) Bradley Roby, Denver Broncos (Last week's ranking: --)
9) Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, New York Giants (Last week's ranking: 8)
10) Adam Jones, Cincinnati Bengals (Last week's ranking: 5)

[Hornet Mania]

Norman was good in our system. He knew it in and out through years of experience. He was also allowed to freelance more than anyone else on the defense thanks to our coaching staff recognizing that Norman is an eccentric style of player, but it works out for the most part. A great example of this was his very late CB blitz against Russel Wilson in the 4th quarter of last year's divisional playoff, it wasn't a called play but he knew his responsibilities and made a fantastic instinctive play that helped us skim by for the W.

Norman is still good as a Redskin, from what I've seen, but he doesn't look nearly as comfortable and his support system is not even half as talented which also makes him look worse. There is no way in hell he's the 5th-best corner in football this year, NFL.com's rankings seem to be based more on reputation and weekly narrative than anything. His dropoff has been from possibly-best CB in the league to above-average starter on a flawed defense. Some of that is a new system, some of that is worse teammates, but some of that is also that we've already seen Josh Norman's peak season.

The question is how many more seasons Norman can approach his level of play last year. This was what Carolina took into account before backing up the money truck. Personally I'd have franchised him, since he made a last-second attempt to sign it after he was told his release was imminent, and then parted ways in 2017. But Gettleman is a prideful GM, he's been an overall positive but his propensity for making a point about these guys being expendable by cutting them at inexplicable times is second only to Belichick.

Which brings us to whether he would have helped Carolina this year. I think he certainly would have, but that doesn't necessarily mean he would be playing as well as last season or that our defense would. The biggest problem for our defense this year has been a total lack of pressure on the QB. Our pass rush was way better at the end of last season than it is today, it has been just terrible through four games against offensive lines that on paper appeared vulnerable. Norman can't cover guys for five or six seconds every play, no one can, so our pass rush deficiency would bleed onto him. He would be an upgrade, through experience especially, over Bradberry as a starter but the rookie has actually played pretty well considering the circumstances. I have high hopes for him, he seems composed and with a better pass rush to provide support and another year in our system he could become a rangy playmaker of the Sherman/Norman mold.

I think Carolina's defense hit its floor yesterday. Sean McDermott's defenses have a history of improvement over the course of the year, peaking in December and through the playoffs, I expect that to happen this year as well. Before yesterday Carolina's defense was ranked 3rd in the league and had to yet to give up (excluding ST and touchdowns by the opposing defense) 20pts in a game, so it's also possible Atlanta has a historic offense and they just pantsed a good unit for one week. I expect improvement from the pass rush, although nothing miraculous, and Bradberry/Worley to grow into better players by year's end with the team settling into a 4th-8th finish. With Norman we'd be even better, but almost definitely not enough to be at Denver's level.

[atlantabbq99]

Nah, Julio got 190 yards in a game last year against Norman and Carolina. Julio would have still gotten 300 yards yesterday even if Norman was still on the Panthers this year.

Julio and Ryan exposed how bad the Carolina defense was last year in 2015 and now the rest of the NFL has picked up on that

[bleu]

Josh Norman among the league leaders in yards allowed for a cornerback this year and is captain of the 28th ranked secondary of the league but his absence for the Carolina defense has caused a huge impact that Carolina might not be able to get away from.

Man, I've posted about this so many times, it's become a waste. So let me summarize my thoughts on the issue, and if you want stats and facts to back up my thoughts, go look at the OTHER Josh Norman thread.

-Anyone following the Josh Norman "storylines" put out by much of the national media are very misled. He makes a great villain, so they paint a picture that he is much worse than he was last year, and that he's yesterday's news and a product of the system. However, if you've actually watched him play (not just watched the Redskins, but watched him specifically), it's easy to see that is garbage.

-People throw out stats like "yeah, well Dez, AB, and OBJ all got 100+ on him. That's not elite". Once again, that is someone who didn't watch those games or know much about the team who is saying that. Norman didn't even line up across from Dez or AB, so how is he supposed to stop them? And no, it wasn't by his choice, that's the stupidest storyline I've heard.

-Then people say, "well yeah, but he did line up across from OBJ". Okay, sort of. He played much more defense on OBJ, and did an excellent job of it. Yes, Odell racked up 100+ yards on 7 receptions in the game. However you can go an pick apart the film however you want, but many of those came while OBJ was in the slot, and only TWO of the receptions were truly Norman's fault. Norman also broke up 3 passes targeted for Odell, including two in a row on 2nd and 3rd down during the biggest drive of the game.

-Is Norman a product of the Panthers defensive system? No. I see why some may have believed that were the case before the season, but he's proven otherwise this season. He certainly benefited in his development by playing in a very good system, and playing in a bad system this year of course he's going to take some flack. But if you want to know if he is a top cornerback in the league, just watch him play. Or save yourself the time, and I can tell you definitively, YES.

[OnceUponADime]

Marcus Peters is garbage, how is he rated #2 CB in the league? He isn't even top 10 if you ask me. Dude gambles so much that he gets some nice INT numbers but that's it. Keenan Allen wrecked him in week 1 before he went down and the Big Ben repeatedly kept throwing the ball yesterday to whoever Peters was guarding.

Norman may be overrated but he's better than whatever trash the Panthers have in the secondary right now. You could make a case that Carolina has the worst secondary in all of football right now.

Should've paid Norman.

[Hornet Mania]

Good grief, one week and we've got the worst secondary in all of football and our 2015 defense was secretly garbage that is just now getting exposed.

The Panthers had a top-5 defense before yesterday, even with an extremely raw set of corners and a missing pass rush. Recency bias is making people lose their minds. And I can't even imagine why anyone would claim that this year's results would somehow shed negative light on last year's team. Last year's defense was phenomenal, it played step-for-step with Denver in that Super Bowl keeping it tight right until the last few minutes in spite of basically no help from the offense at all. The 2016 Panthers are undergoing an adjustment period on defense, and they've already played three of what will likely be the 12 teams that make this year's playoffs, possibly 3 of the 8 division champions. 1-3 is not fantastic, but the rush to judgment against Carolina seems more like sour grapes by everyone who kept having to eat crow last season (until the Denver game, of course) than anything.

God forbid that Atlanta might actually be that damn good, or that Julio Jones is a superhuman who is going to go supernova at random intervals throughout the season.

[Otis Driftwood]

Marcus Peters is garbage, how is he rated #2 CB in the league? He isn't even top 10 if you ask me. Dude gambles so much that he gets some nice INT numbers but that's it. Keenan Allen wrecked him in week 1 before he went down and the Big Ben repeatedly kept throwing the ball yesterday to whoever Peters was guarding.

Norman may be overrated but he's better than whatever trash the Panthers have in the secondary right now. You could make a case that Carolina has the worst secondary in all of football right now.

Should've paid Norman.

Well - according the THE OTHER JOSH NORMAN THREAD the NFL.com website is gospel and to dispute it is heresy.

I'll bet after last night, Peters isn't #2 anymore...

[bluejerseyjinx]

It appears to me its more than the release of Josh Norman. The defensive coordinator has a lot of accountability if you watched that game. But to me something just isn't right in Carolina. their offense was suppose to be even better with K. Benjamin this year. They are not running the ball like last year, they are not getting turnovers like last year, and what looks obvious to me in seeing Carolina's first 4 games, well, to put it mildly, its plain and simple to me. They have chemistry issues.

[Hornet Mania]

It appears to me its more than the release of Josh Norman. The defensive coordinator has a lot of accountability if you watched that game. But to me something just isn't right in Carolina. their offense was suppose to be even better with K. Benjamin this year. They are not running the ball like last year, they are not getting turnovers like last year, and what looks obvious to me in seeing Carolina's first 4 games, well, to put it mildly, its plain and simple to me. They have chemistry issues.

The majority of Carolina's issues are related to line play. Cam's protection has evaporated, some of that has to be credited to Denver/Sota but Atlanta wasn't so hot and they were getting to him consistently as well. Our pass rush is non-existent and because of that QBs can just stand back and survey the throws for five or six seconds at a time.

McDermott will figure it out on defense, for longtime Panther fans it will not be shocking to see our defense take a big jump in performance from September/October to December/January it's the story every year. The early 2015 defensive performance not that great, masked by playing crappy QBs and Josh Norman getting a pair of pick sixes, but by year's end the unit was up there with Seattle and Denver as serious problems.

I can't agree with the chemistry comment, unless you've seen something specific I missed. If anything the team has stayed together well in the losses, even making a furious final push against Atlanta when Cam went down before Julio Jones finished us off.

Even with all the problems mentioned in that first paragraph, we're only a bit off on a few plays here and there and that's what has caused most of the losses. Make a FG Gano hits more than half the time in Denver, don't give up a punt return TD or make a needless block in the back on a 57yd TD run against Minnesota and they're 3-1. That attention to detail has been the difference, it's always the difference between top-tier NFL teams, but it's not an insurmountable problem imo. Check the schedule, it's incredibly front-loaded, 10-6 or 11-5 are not out of the question even with the bad start.