Political Roundtable Part X

[montestewart]

Can I also point out the raging hypocrisy of the guy who rails against leftist immigrants who come here, steal jobs, and don't pay taxes...but comes to bat for the genius pretend billionaire who doesn't pay taxes.

The difference is the low-skill immigrants and illegal immigrants are a net negative. They cost much more in services than they pay in taxes. Trump plays plenty of taxes indirectly - property taxes, sales taxes and payroll taxes, plus all the taxes paid by the jobs he creates with his investments.

I continue to have absolutely no problem with Trump paying no taxes if it's due to carry-forward losses from previous years. It's what EVERY SINGLE BUSINESSMAN does. This is a complete non-story.

Curious, but do you take in to account that every single one of us benefits from hispanic immigration re: real estate?
I'm a real estate developer, (like trump, but that's where the similarities end)-- real estate is built on the back of people willing to work for 8 dollars an hour. Don't even get me started on how much hispanics are willing to work for off the books on the weekends!

Yes, american workers are hurt, but everyone who lives in a house or apartment in america benefits greatly from hispanic labor...

Not me, my house was built in 1879. (I've heard there were itinerant Spanish masons and bricklayers who worked in DC back in those days, maybe some of them worked on my house.) Getting a new roof soon. I'll check out what O'Malley's crew looks like.

[penbeast0]

Curious, but do you take in to account that every single one of us benefits from hispanic immigration re: real estate?
I'm a real estate developer, (like trump, but that's where the similarities end)-- real estate is built on the back of people willing to work for 8 dollars an hour. Don't even get me started on how much hispanics are willing to work for off the books on the weekends!

Yes, american workers are hurt, but everyone who lives in a house or apartment in america benefits greatly from hispanic labor...

If we want some work done in the yard or around the house we all know where to find some cheap hispanic labor. They are always hanging around convenience stores. They wouldn't be there if they werent getting business.

Hope that works better for you than offering jobs to people who hang around on street corners with signs saying "Lost job, please help." Never successfully talked any of them into doing a job, only tried it 4 times that I remember. I did hire a guy to do collections paperwork who was homeless but he wasn't begging. I kept seeing him behind a gas station near my house and he was reading a thousand page Michener novel so I figured I'd give him 50% of my defaulted accounts receivables he could collect . . . might have worked but he got busted by some bounty hunters after about 4 days working at it. Haven't tried it here in Florida yet.

[Induveca]

Hiring Hispanics has somehow progressed to hiring criminal homeless vagrants quite quickly in this thread?

In Queens there are dozens of guys outside Home Depot (same in jersey LI and CT) and they aren't homeless they are just normal contractor types.

These guys are just new arrivals doing jobs no one else will do at a reasonable rate/quick turnaround. Far better than the 5-7 day contract/legal/insurance involved with "local" companies who charge you 200% more and take weeks to complete simple jobs.

[nate33]

Curious, but do you take in to account that every single one of us benefits from hispanic immigration re: real estate?
I'm a real estate developer, (like trump, but that's where the similarities end)-- real estate is built on the back of people willing to work for 8 dollars an hour. Don't even get me started on how much hispanics are willing to work for off the books on the weekends!

Yes, american workers are hurt, but everyone who lives in a house or apartment in america benefits greatly from hispanic labor...

I'm aware that the additional labor pool available drives down the price of wages which makes domestic goods and services cost less. But you are not looking at the other costs imposed by this additional labor. What about the health care costs? The welfare costs? The education costs? And as I've said before, for every additional Hispanic immigrant who comes here and works hard, they are still displacing an existing worker who would work just as hard, but for a slightly higher wage.

As long as workforce participation rates are at historic lows, I just can't buy the argument that it's an economic advantage to continue to import low skill workers. Yes, restricting the labor supply will increase consumer prices, but it will also increase wages and decrease social safety net costs. It's ultimately a wealth redistribution from the rich and the welfare class to the middle class, while also reducing the incentive to become a dependent ward of the state.

[penbeast0]

Curious, but do you take in to account that every single one of us benefits from hispanic immigration re: real estate?
I'm a real estate developer, (like trump, but that's where the similarities end)-- real estate is built on the back of people willing to work for 8 dollars an hour. Don't even get me started on how much hispanics are willing to work for off the books on the weekends!

Yes, american workers are hurt, but everyone who lives in a house or apartment in america benefits greatly from hispanic labor...

I'm aware that the additional labor pool available drives down the price of wages which makes domestic goods and services cost less. But you are not looking at the other costs imposed by this additional labor. What about the health care costs? The welfare costs? The education costs? And as I've said before, for every additional Hispanic immigrant who comes here and works hard, they are still displacing an existing worker who would work just as hard, but for a slightly higher wage.

As long as workforce participation rates are at historic lows, I just can't buy the argument that it's an economic advantage to continue to import low skill workers. Yes, restricting the labor supply will increase consumer prices, but it will also increase wages and decrease social safety net costs. It's ultimately a wealth redistribution from the rich and the welfare class to the middle class, while also reducing the incentive to become a dependent ward of the state.

Good points . . . if you are assuming that those lower bottom end wages and jobs wouldn't either be replaced by automation, cut as inessential, or that the higher wages wouldn't force jobs to leave the country. It's very similar to the debate about raising the minimum wage.

[nate33]

Curious, but do you take in to account that every single one of us benefits from hispanic immigration re: real estate?
I'm a real estate developer, (like trump, but that's where the similarities end)-- real estate is built on the back of people willing to work for 8 dollars an hour. Don't even get me started on how much hispanics are willing to work for off the books on the weekends!

Yes, american workers are hurt, but everyone who lives in a house or apartment in america benefits greatly from hispanic labor...

I'm aware that the additional labor pool available drives down the price of wages which makes domestic goods and services cost less. But you are not looking at the other costs imposed by this additional labor. What about the health care costs? The welfare costs? The education costs? And as I've said before, for every additional Hispanic immigrant who comes here and works hard, they are still displacing an existing worker who would work just as hard, but for a slightly higher wage.

As long as workforce participation rates are at historic lows, I just can't buy the argument that it's an economic advantage to continue to import low skill workers. Yes, restricting the labor supply will increase consumer prices, but it will also increase wages and decrease social safety net costs. It's ultimately a wealth redistribution from the rich and the welfare class to the middle class, while also reducing the incentive to become a dependent ward of the state.

Good points . . . if you are assuming that those lower bottom end wages and jobs wouldn't either be replaced by automation, cut as inessential, or that the higher wages wouldn't force jobs to leave the country. It's very similar to the debate about raising the minimum wage.

Yes. I favor the principle behind raising the minimum wage, but I don't favor the method of implementation. The problem is that the cost of living varies widely depending on the region. A $15 per hour minimum wage seems reasonable in places like New York City or Washington DC, but it doesn't make sense in Springfield, Ohio and will only hurt the local economy.

Restricting the supply of low skill labor does the same general thing as raising the minimum wage, but it still allows market forces to play a role in determining what a "fair" wage is.

[payitforward]

Did anyone watch the vice-presidential debate? Any part of it? Thoughts?

[Wizardspride]

Did anyone watch the vice-presidential debate? Any part of it? Thoughts?

I saw it and I thought Pence did a good job....as far as his own future prospects.

Imo, he did a good job demonstrating his conservative credentials.

Now as for helping Trump? I don't see it.

He basically denied every vile thing Trump has ever uttered.

Don't think his performance (or Kaine's) is really going to change many hearts and minds.

[Wizardspride]

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[Dat2U]

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I think it's because people see his potential replacements and realize we didn't have it as bad as we thought.

[AFM]

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I think it's because people see his potential replacements and realize we didn't have it as bad as we thought.

Absolutely.

[Ruzious]

Did anyone watch the vice-presidential debate? Any part of it? Thoughts?

I saw it and I thought Pence did a good job....as far as his own future prospects.

Imo, he did a good job demonstrating his conservative credentials.

Now as for helping Trump? I don't see it.

He basically denied every vile thing Trump has ever uttered.

Don't think his performance (or Kaine's) is really going to change many hearts and minds.

Yeah, I was impressed with how Pence handled the debate - other than his absurd head-shaking when Kaine said things that were clearly true, but he stopped doing that toward the end, and how you finish is often the most important thing in a debate, imo. Thing is - he did so much better than Trump did in his debate that it probably hurt Trump, because Trump looks bad in comparison. When the VP candidate looks so much better than the guy he's supposed to be second fiddle to - you have a problem. And it's really not at all clear that they share the same core values and philosophies, imo. Pence seems far more consistently conservative.

[Wizardspride]

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[Wizardspride]

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[Induveca]

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/

Wikileaks just dropped 2000 emails / 200 attachments from Clinton's campaign manager. No clue what's in there yet, beyond Wikileaks description of Clinton Foundation nuclear energy/uranium deals with Russia.

----
In April 2015 the New York Times published a story about a company called "Uranium One" which was sold to Russian government-controlled interests, giving Russia effective control of one-fifth of all uranium production capacity in the United States. Since uranium is considered a strategic asset, with implications for the production of nuclear weapons, the deal had to be approved by a committee composed of representatives from a number of US government agencies. Among the agencies that eventually signed off the deal was the State Department, then headed by Secretary Clinton. The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS) comprises, among others, the secretaries of the Treasury, Defense, Homeland Security, Commerce and Energy.

As Russian interests gradually took control of Uranium One millions of dollars were donated to the Clinton Foundation between 2009 and 2013 from individuals directly connected to the deal including the Chairman of Uranium One, Ian Telfer. Although Mrs Clinton had an agreement with the Obama White House to publicly identify all donors to the Clinton Foundation, the contributions from the Chairman of Uranium One were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons.
----

[Induveca]

Another one just a quick glance, the NYTimes apparently runs all Trump articles by Clinton's campaign manager prior to publication, even first drafts which they help to edit...

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/844

[Induveca]

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails//fileid/983/203

Insane.

[Wizardspride]

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[dckingsfan]

Another one just a quick glance, the NYTimes apparently runs all Trump articles by Clinton's campaign manager prior to publication, even first drafts which they help to edit...

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/844

hahaha - ouch! Man, I read the NY Times - I will have a completely new way to look at the stories.

If you were a right winger - you would be slamming the conspiracy theory and it would be hard to defend.

[dckingsfan]

We have the two most corrupt presidential candidates. sheesh. I am surprised anyone is voting.