Damian Lillard VS Kyrie Irving

[bondom34]

Love played less than half the time with Kyrie. In fact, Love was downright awful without LeBron, posted a 49.3 TS%, 42.5 eFG%, and 1.03 PPP.

No, because basketball is a team game. I have already stated that Matthews, Batum, and Lopez were better than Shumpert, RJ, and TT.
So it is Kyrie Irving's fault that he didn't anchor the defense like Robin Lopez/Batum did?
As for the offensive part, again, the difference is .7 ORtg, which is less than one make per 200 shot attempts, and again, that supporting cast Lillard had is better offensively than what Kyrie had to work with.
This also doesn't take into account that Kyrie was injured for a good portion of this past year. If we look at what happened in 2015, we will see a different picture (funny how that works when a player is actually healthy). Kyrie posted a 57 TS%, 1.15 PPP, 110 ORtg without LeBron.

And again was a net negative. Odd how a team w/ Kyrie falls off w/o someone , while a team w/ Lillard doesn't'

Both teams got worse when LMA/LeBron sat. Lillard had better players around him.
There is no way you should be coming to a conclusion about who is better based on what these players TEAMS did without their stars, but if you want to, go for it.

You don't have to, but it can be of help. And if someone is saying Irving did better w/o Lebron, I'd dispute that which was the original point. His team lost w/o Lebron.

[Pelly24]

Did you miss the offense dying too?

Is the difference between Portland ORtg at 108 and Cleveland's offense at 107.3 that big of a deal? All these stats show is that LeBron had a much larger impact than LMA.

Who on Portland is as good as Love offensively? And to add, if Irving is superior as we're led to believe he should be able to lead a team to a better offense than Portland. I'd value a guy who leads a team to a positive rating over a guy who doesn't/can't.

First of all, it's kind of crazy because those samples prove that Kyrie's TS% actually went up when LeBron was off the floor, while Dame's went down when LMA was off the floor. So doesn't that point toward Kyrie being able to more effectively get his own offense without another star player? And mind you, that's also taking into account Kyrie's very uncharacteristic and likely related to his knee injury recovery 32% 3 point shooting this year. More likely, he'll shoot 38% from three. He shot 42% from three in 2015. The offensive ratings are barely different, and that's a more of an interdependent rating than something like ISO% and TS%. Kyrie also had like a 55 TS% when his team was AWFUL. So if you look take into account Kyrie's injury recovery, I don't even see a difference. If you focus on Kyrie's more likely productivity from 2015 in conjunction with Kyrie's more well-rounded scoring skills, I think Kyrie is clearly better when at his best. I just can't see any scenario where Dame does what Kyrie did this past playoffs. Also, CJ McCollum prob. isn't worse than K. Love as an offensive player, at this point. CJ can easily get buckets against good defenses when he needs to.

[bondom34]

Is the difference between Portland ORtg at 108 and Cleveland's offense at 107.3 that big of a deal? All these stats show is that LeBron had a much larger impact than LMA.

Who on Portland is as good as Love offensively? And to add, if Irving is superior as we're led to believe he should be able to lead a team to a better offense than Portland. I'd value a guy who leads a team to a positive rating over a guy who doesn't/can't.

First of all, it's kind of crazy because those samples prove that Kyrie's TS% actually went up when LeBron was off the floor, while Dame's went down when LMA was off the floor. So doesn't that point toward Kyrie being able to more effectively get his own offense without another star player? And mind you, that's also taking into account Kyrie's very uncharacteristic and likely related to his knee injury recovery 32% 3 point shooting this year. More likely, he'll shoot 38% from three. He shot 42% from three in 2015. The offensive ratings are barely different, and that's a more of an interdependent rating than something like ISO% and TS%. Kyrie also had like a 55 TS% when his team was AWFUL. So if you look take into account Kyrie's injury recovery, I don't even see a difference. If you focus on Kyrie's more likely productivity from 2015 in conjunction with Kyrie's more well-rounded scoring skills, I think Kyrie is clearly better when at his best. I just can't see any scenario where Dame does what Kyrie did this past playoffs. Also, CJ McCollum prob. isn't worse than K. Love as an offensive player, at this point. CJ can easily get buckets against good defenses when he needs to.

I was looking at team ratings. And yes, Love is still better than CJ McCollum. Lillard led a worse team to a winning record than Irving ever has, and that isn't even close. Take Lebron out and the Cavs are still a lotto team.

[Colbinii]

Who on Portland is as good as Love offensively? And to add, if Irving is superior as we're led to believe he should be able to lead a team to a better offense than Portland. I'd value a guy who leads a team to a positive rating over a guy who doesn't/can't.

First of all, it's kind of crazy because those samples prove that Kyrie's TS% actually went up when LeBron was off the floor, while Dame's went down when LMA was off the floor. So doesn't that point toward Kyrie being able to more effectively get his own offense without another star player? And mind you, that's also taking into account Kyrie's very uncharacteristic and likely related to his knee injury recovery 32% 3 point shooting this year. More likely, he'll shoot 38% from three. He shot 42% from three in 2015. The offensive ratings are barely different, and that's a more of an interdependent rating than something like ISO% and TS%. Kyrie also had like a 55 TS% when his team was AWFUL. So if you look take into account Kyrie's injury recovery, I don't even see a difference. If you focus on Kyrie's more likely productivity from 2015 in conjunction with Kyrie's more well-rounded scoring skills, I think Kyrie is clearly better when at his best. I just can't see any scenario where Dame does what Kyrie did this past playoffs. Also, CJ McCollum prob. isn't worse than K. Love as an offensive player, at this point. CJ can easily get buckets against good defenses when he needs to.

I was looking at team ratings. And yes, Love is still better than CJ McCollum. Lillard led a worse team to a winning record than Irving ever has, and that isn't even close. Take Lebron out and the Cavs are still a lotto team.

Kyrie Irving also never had a team around him as talented as Portland was last year except for LeBron. Kyrie was 19, 20, and 21 before LeBron showed up, while Lillard wasn't even in the league at those ages.
This is a hard comparison because it is an apples to oranges comparison, and attempting to make it apples to apples has too much noise. At the end of the day, it boils down to what Kyrie has done in the playoffs versus what you believe Lillard is capable of in the playoffs when playing next to a player like LeBron.
For me, I don't think Lillard could do what Irving did in the NBA finals. At the same time, the sample size is extremely small so we have to be careful with drawing conclusions from just the Finals. It is fun discussing them, but when drawing conclusions on an ORtg difference of .7 when one of the players was injured just seems...flawed to me.

[Pelly24]

Who on Portland is as good as Love offensively? And to add, if Irving is superior as we're led to believe he should be able to lead a team to a better offense than Portland. I'd value a guy who leads a team to a positive rating over a guy who doesn't/can't.

First of all, it's kind of crazy because those samples prove that Kyrie's TS% actually went up when LeBron was off the floor, while Dame's went down when LMA was off the floor. So doesn't that point toward Kyrie being able to more effectively get his own offense without another star player? And mind you, that's also taking into account Kyrie's very uncharacteristic and likely related to his knee injury recovery 32% 3 point shooting this year. More likely, he'll shoot 38% from three. He shot 42% from three in 2015. The offensive ratings are barely different, and that's a more of an interdependent rating than something like ISO% and TS%. Kyrie also had like a 55 TS% when his team was AWFUL. So if you look take into account Kyrie's injury recovery, I don't even see a difference. If you focus on Kyrie's more likely productivity from 2015 in conjunction with Kyrie's more well-rounded scoring skills, I think Kyrie is clearly better when at his best. I just can't see any scenario where Dame does what Kyrie did this past playoffs. Also, CJ McCollum prob. isn't worse than K. Love as an offensive player, at this point. CJ can easily get buckets against good defenses when he needs to.

I was looking at team ratings. And yes, Love is still better than CJ McCollum. Lillard led a worse team to a winning record than Irving ever has, and that isn't even close. Take Lebron out and the Cavs are still a lotto team.

CJ McCollum averaged 21 points last year with a pretty solid 54 TS% and actually put up some solid numbers against GSW, which is still a really good defensive team. Portland's coaching and CJ McCollum's emergence as one of the league's better two guards were probably nearly as responsible for the Trail Blazers successful season as Dame was. K.Love vs. CJ isn't all that clear cut. Both are pretty much fringe all star level players at this point, with CJ honest to god being more useful in a bunch of situations. You're also blatantly ignoring the fact that Kyrie was:

1. 4-6 years younger than Dame was this past year.
2. On a team that was actively tanking for at least a year.
3. Playing with Dion Waiters, who is only getting $2.3 million this year. CJ? He's getting $23 million. I

Basically, there's nothing that you're saying that truly proves Kyrie couldn't lead a decent team to the playoffs. You probably think Dame is better than AD too, since AD missed the playoffs, and AD's team from this year was still better than Kyrie's pre-lebron teams.

Also,no, if you truly believe the Cavs would be as bad as they were before LeBron got there, you're crazy. Love, JR, Iman, Channing Frye, Dunleavy are all much better players than their counterparts on the Cavs teams of 2012-2014. Kyrie Irving is now 3 years older than he was during those years as well.

But since you're going to look at things in a vacuum let's look at this: Kyrie was far more successful as a 1B than Dame ever was. Kyrie torched the league's best defense and outplayed the league's supposed best player. We don't technically know that Kyrie can lead a team to the playoffs as it's best player. But what we do know, without a doubt, is that Kyrie can be a team's second best player and win a chip. Dame has not proven that he can do that. He had LMA, and still played "meh" at best. In an era of super teams, unless you're one of the league's top 8 players, that's more important than leading an average team to the playoffs "by yourself." Dame and Bron' don;t win a chip if they're on the same team. LeBron couldn't survive Dame missing layups and chucking contested threes.

[Colbinii]

You don't have to, but it can be of help. And if someone is saying Irving did better w/o Lebron, I'd dispute that which was the original point. His team lost w/o Lebron.

Indeed, his TEAM lost.

[bondom34]

For me, I don't think Lillard could do what Irving did in the NBA finals. At the same time, the sample size is extremely small so we have to be careful with drawing conclusions from just the Finals. It is fun discussing them, but when drawing conclusions on an ORtg difference of .7 when one of the players was injured just seems...flawed to me.

You're right it isn't a direct comp, but Lillard has been fine postseason while Kyrie had essentially one great series. I've done this before and didn't want to come into the thread, but I've broken it down 100 times, and take Lillard.

First of all, it's kind of crazy because those samples prove that Kyrie's TS% actually went up when LeBron was off the floor, while Dame's went down when LMA was off the floor. So doesn't that point toward Kyrie being able to more effectively get his own offense without another star player? And mind you, that's also taking into account Kyrie's very uncharacteristic and likely related to his knee injury recovery 32% 3 point shooting this year. More likely, he'll shoot 38% from three. He shot 42% from three in 2015. The offensive ratings are barely different, and that's a more of an interdependent rating than something like ISO% and TS%. Kyrie also had like a 55 TS% when his team was AWFUL. So if you look take into account Kyrie's injury recovery, I don't even see a difference. If you focus on Kyrie's more likely productivity from 2015 in conjunction with Kyrie's more well-rounded scoring skills, I think Kyrie is clearly better when at his best. I just can't see any scenario where Dame does what Kyrie did this past playoffs. Also, CJ McCollum prob. isn't worse than K. Love as an offensive player, at this point. CJ can easily get buckets against good defenses when he needs to.

I was looking at team ratings. And yes, Love is still better than CJ McCollum. Lillard led a worse team to a winning record than Irving ever has, and that isn't even close. Take Lebron out and the Cavs are still a lotto team.

CJ McCollum averaged 21 points last year with a pretty solid 54 TS% and actually put up some solid numbers against GSW, which is still a really good defensive team. Portland's coaching and CJ McCollum's emergence as one of the league's better two guards were probably nearly as responsible for the Trail Blazers successful season as Dame was. K.Love vs. CJ isn't all that clear cut. Both are pretty much fringe all star level players at this point, with CJ honest to god being more useful in a bunch of situations. You're also blatantly ignoring the fact that Kyrie was:

1. 4-6 years younger than Dame was this past year.
2. On a team that was actively tanking for at least a year.
3. Playing with Dion Waiters, who is only getting $2.3 million this year. CJ? He's getting $23 million. I

Basically, there's nothing that you're saying that truly proves Kyrie couldn't lead a decent team to the playoffs. You probably think Dame is better than AD too, since AD missed the playoffs, and AD's team from this year was still better than Kyrie's pre-lebron teams.

Also,no, if you truly believe the Cavs would be as bad as they were before LeBron got there, you're crazy. Love, JR, Iman, Channing Frye, Dunleavy are all much better players than their counterparts on the Cavs teams of 2012-2014. Kyrie Irving is now 3 years older than he was during those years as well.

But since you're going to look at things in a vacuum let's look at this: Kyrie was far more successful as a 1B than Dame ever was. Kyrie torched the league's best defense and outplayed the league's supposed best player. We don't technically know that Kyrie can lead a team to the playoffs as it's best player. But what we do know, without a doubt, is that Kyrie can be a team's second best player and win a chip. Dame has not proven that he can do that. He had LMA, and still played "meh" at best. In an era of super teams, unless you're one of the league's top 8 players, that's more important than leading an average team to the playoffs "by yourself." Dame and Bron' don;t win a chip if they're on the same team. LeBron couldn't survive Dame missing layups and chucking contested threes.

Wait huh? Irving hasn't been as good as Dame as a 1b, he's had a better 1a. There's a pretty big difference there. Dame comes out better in pretty much every overall metric I can find. To add, Love vs. CJ is way clear cut, I mean I can't fathom how little someone thinks of Love for that to be true. If you swap these 2 you improve the Cavs to me with no doubt and the Blazers are worse by a good margin.

[bondom34]

You don't have to, but it can be of help. And if someone is saying Irving did better w/o Lebron, I'd dispute that which was the original point. His team lost w/o Lebron.

Indeed, his TEAM lost.

And Dame's won.

[Pelly24]

First of all, it's kind of crazy because those samples prove that Kyrie's TS% actually went up when LeBron was off the floor, while Dame's went down when LMA was off the floor. So doesn't that point toward Kyrie being able to more effectively get his own offense without another star player? And mind you, that's also taking into account Kyrie's very uncharacteristic and likely related to his knee injury recovery 32% 3 point shooting this year. More likely, he'll shoot 38% from three. He shot 42% from three in 2015. The offensive ratings are barely different, and that's a more of an interdependent rating than something like ISO% and TS%. Kyrie also had like a 55 TS% when his team was AWFUL. So if you look take into account Kyrie's injury recovery, I don't even see a difference. If you focus on Kyrie's more likely productivity from 2015 in conjunction with Kyrie's more well-rounded scoring skills, I think Kyrie is clearly better when at his best. I just can't see any scenario where Dame does what Kyrie did this past playoffs. Also, CJ McCollum prob. isn't worse than K. Love as an offensive player, at this point. CJ can easily get buckets against good defenses when he needs to.

I was looking at team ratings. And yes, Love is still better than CJ McCollum. Lillard led a worse team to a winning record than Irving ever has, and that isn't even close. Take Lebron out and the Cavs are still a lotto team.

Kyrie Irving also never had a team around him as talented as Portland was last year except for LeBron. Kyrie was 19, 20, and 21 before LeBron showed up, while Lillard wasn't even in the league at those ages.
This is a hard comparison because it is an apples to oranges comparison, and attempting to make it apples to apples has too much noise. At the end of the day, it boils down to what Kyrie has done in the playoffs versus what you believe Lillard is capable of in the playoffs when playing next to a player like LeBron.
For me, I don't think Lillard could do what Irving did in the NBA finals. At the same time, the sample size is extremely small so we have to be careful with drawing conclusions from just the Finals. It is fun discussing them, but when drawing conclusions on an ORtg difference of .7 when one of the players was injured just seems...flawed to me.

I agree. I really, really don't see how Lillard could accomplish what Kyrie did. He can't get to wherever he wants to on the court and make any shot. He isn't getting buckets in transition or sticking midranger jumpers at an efficient clip, something Kyrie's done his entire career. This isn't an easy comparison, and I don't think anything can be concluded from the data we have, but just looking at Dame's fairly one-dimensional scoring game, and that he's also a bad defender while also an average passer, I just don't see him having the upside to outplay any player. He's just not on the level of CP3, Curry and Westbrook and Harden, and for the most part, it'll always be very obvious when they matchup. I get the feeling that Kyrie will score efficiently no matter what against those guys, same can;t be said for Dame.

[Colbinii]

I was looking at team ratings. And yes, Love is still better than CJ McCollum. Lillard led a worse team to a winning record than Irving ever has, and that isn't even close. Take Lebron out and the Cavs are still a lotto team.

Kyrie Irving also never had a team around him as talented as Portland was last year except for LeBron. Kyrie was 19, 20, and 21 before LeBron showed up, while Lillard wasn't even in the league at those ages.
This is a hard comparison because it is an apples to oranges comparison, and attempting to make it apples to apples has too much noise. At the end of the day, it boils down to what Kyrie has done in the playoffs versus what you believe Lillard is capable of in the playoffs when playing next to a player like LeBron.
For me, I don't think Lillard could do what Irving did in the NBA finals. At the same time, the sample size is extremely small so we have to be careful with drawing conclusions from just the Finals. It is fun discussing them, but when drawing conclusions on an ORtg difference of .7 when one of the players was injured just seems...flawed to me.

I agree. I really, really don't see how Lillard could accomplish what Kyrie did. He can't get to wherever he wants to on the court and make any shot. He isn't getting buckets in transition or sticking midranger jumpers at an efficient clip, something Kyrie's done his entire career. This isn't an easy comparison, and I don't think anything can be concluded from the data we have, but just looking at Dame's fairly one-dimensional scoring game, and that he's also a bad defender while also an average passer, I just don't see him having the upside to outplay any player. He's just not on the level of CP3, Curry and Westbrook and Harden, and for the most part, it'll always be very obvious when they matchup. I get the feeling that Kyrie will score efficiently no matter what against those guys, same can;t be said for Dame.

For me, in the post-season, I just like Kyrie's game as I feel like their is less variation from a game to game perspective. Neither of these players will have anywhere near a star impact if they aren't scoring, and I feel like Irving is just a better scorer.

[Pelly24]

For me, I don't think Lillard could do what Irving did in the NBA finals. At the same time, the sample size is extremely small so we have to be careful with drawing conclusions from just the Finals. It is fun discussing them, but when drawing conclusions on an ORtg difference of .7 when one of the players was injured just seems...flawed to me.

You're right it isn't a direct comp, but Lillard has been fine postseason while Kyrie had essentially one great series. I've done this before and didn't want to come into the thread, but I've broken it down 100 times, and take Lillard.

I was looking at team ratings. And yes, Love is still better than CJ McCollum. Lillard led a worse team to a winning record than Irving ever has, and that isn't even close. Take Lebron out and the Cavs are still a lotto team.

CJ McCollum averaged 21 points last year with a pretty solid 54 TS% and actually put up some solid numbers against GSW, which is still a really good defensive team. Portland's coaching and CJ McCollum's emergence as one of the league's better two guards were probably nearly as responsible for the Trail Blazers successful season as Dame was. K.Love vs. CJ isn't all that clear cut. Both are pretty much fringe all star level players at this point, with CJ honest to god being more useful in a bunch of situations. You're also blatantly ignoring the fact that Kyrie was:

1. 4-6 years younger than Dame was this past year.
2. On a team that was actively tanking for at least a year.
3. Playing with Dion Waiters, who is only getting $2.3 million this year. CJ? He's getting $23 million. I

Basically, there's nothing that you're saying that truly proves Kyrie couldn't lead a decent team to the playoffs. You probably think Dame is better than AD too, since AD missed the playoffs, and AD's team from this year was still better than Kyrie's pre-lebron teams.

Also,no, if you truly believe the Cavs would be as bad as they were before LeBron got there, you're crazy. Love, JR, Iman, Channing Frye, Dunleavy are all much better players than their counterparts on the Cavs teams of 2012-2014. Kyrie Irving is now 3 years older than he was during those years as well.

But since you're going to look at things in a vacuum let's look at this: Kyrie was far more successful as a 1B than Dame ever was. Kyrie torched the league's best defense and outplayed the league's supposed best player. We don't technically know that Kyrie can lead a team to the playoffs as it's best player. But what we do know, without a doubt, is that Kyrie can be a team's second best player and win a chip. Dame has not proven that he can do that. He had LMA, and still played "meh" at best. In an era of super teams, unless you're one of the league's top 8 players, that's more important than leading an average team to the playoffs "by yourself." Dame and Bron' don;t win a chip if they're on the same team. LeBron couldn't survive Dame missing layups and chucking contested threes.

Wait huh? Irving hasn't been as good as Dame as a 1b, he's had a better 1a. There's a pretty big difference there. Dame comes out better in pretty much every overall metric I can find. To add, Love vs. CJ is way clear cut, I mean I can't fathom how little someone thinks of Love for that to be true. If you swap these 2 you improve the Cavs to me with no doubt and the Blazers are worse by a good margin.

Dame also had a bunch of good defensive players and other capable role players. You make it sound like Kyrie was just riding LeBron's coattails, even when he was draining fadeaway jumpers and hitting ridiculous reverse layups at a high clip. It's almost impossible for a 1B to play better than Kyrie just did. You could argue he was the second best player in the whole playoffs. With Kyrie as a 1B, the Cavs won a championship with him getting 25 ppg 5 assists with 2 turnovers and 2 steals while shooting on 48/44/88 splits.Dame has NEVER come close to that in the playoffs, and most of Kyrie's points came off the dribble, so I don't really see how Lebron had much to do with him getting them. My point is that Kyrie maxed out as a 1B player. Literally, I'm not sure anyone's done a better job at it than him. He had the highest game score for a 1B or 2 in the NBA Finals ever. I think it was higher than Kobe's. Put Kyrie in any situation where there are good defenders and or with another capable star, and he's getting his 24 ppg on 54-58 TS%. I just don't know if that's true of Dame in the playoffs. Peep DWade's stats from the 2011 playoffs, and compare them with Kyrie's from the 2016 playoffs.

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/78 splits with 4.4 assists 7.1 rpg 1.3 blocks and 1.6 steals on a 30% usage rate
Kyrie 2016 playoffs: 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds 1.7 steals .6 blocks on a 30% usage rate.

When you consider Kyrie's shooting, it's clear that his postseason was comparable to peak Dwade's with LeBron. Ask yourself: is Dame really capable of this? In my view, no. He's not nearly the athlete and slasher that DWade was, and his midrange game isn't refined enough, he can't create space at will. He's a shooter that scores a lot of points.

[rasta_marley]

Do you think the Cavs can win the finals with Lillard instead of Kyrie? Lillard has had one series in the post-season that was similar to Kyrie's NBA finals, and that was against a much worse defensive team.

Lillard never had the luxury of playing next to Bron. No reason to believe the Cavs would be worse off with Dame, so in that sense I do think they win regardless. I don't see it as an upgrade though, the way I do with Portland, because leadership qualities are less important for second fiddles.

Here's what I'll say about that: Dame still played with another top 12-15 player in LMA, and he still had a great perimeter defender next to him and a few other good role players. Dame still shot under 40% or around in all of his trips to the playoffs. Dame had a better streak of scoring than any Kyrie has had this season, but we've never seen him sustain any significant playoff success, and here's why: He's not as well-rounded an offensive player as Kyrie. Dame isn't as quick or crafty as Kyrie, his standing reach is lower than Kyrie's by four inches, his body control isn't as good so he's not as good of a finisher, and he's a much worse midrange shooter, while only arguably being a slightly better 3ball shooter. When Dame's not hitting his long range jumpers, his offense goes to hell. When Kyrie isn't hitting his 3ball, he can still be a one man fastbreak and score in transition. He can still hit floaters and fadeaway Kobe jumpshots. He's athletic and quick enough to slither through any defense and make reverse layups. Dame literally looked completely flustered by Klay Thompson. Another thing that's underrated about the Trail Blazers is the rapid improvement of CJ McCollum as probably an Eastern Conference All Star level player. That was as big of a reason for their success as Dame's play, or at least not too much less of one. That Trail Blazers team is MUCH better than Kyrie's pre-lebron Cavs. And Kyrie was also 19-21 years old, while Dame was 25 years old this past season, so not a good comparison. Overall, I haven't seen anything that says Kyrie definitely can't lead a team with decent talent to the playoffs. However, I have seen that Dame is not on the same level as Harden, Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Tony Parker a few years ago, and honestly, he was getting outplayed by Mike Conley before Conley got his face destroyed. Truth is, Dame is not someone who is capable of outplaying the best players in the NBA during a playoff series. Kyrie was definitely helped out by LeBron, but Kyrie arguably helped LeBron out almost as much as vice versa. Kyrie had a 30% usage rate during the playoffs while averaging 25 ppg on 48/44/91 splits with 5 assists and only 2 turnovers. He also averaged like 2 steals and half a block a game. Kyrie had a 24.7 PER during the playoffs. He was basically an elite shooting guard this past postseason. He was, no exaggerating, 2011 DWade this past postseason. Either that or 2002 Kobe. It was a postseason that rivals almost any other guard's over the past 10 years. He had LeBron, but he was also as successful as you can possibly be, so it's not like you can say anyone would have done better, because he did literally as well as it could be done by beating a banged up, but still elite team in the NBA finals, while putting up numbers that would easily get you Finals MVP most years. I just haven't seen any indication that Dame can do that. Those shots Kyrie was very efficiently hitting all playoffs aren't shots that anyone in the league now can hit regularly.

You based you post on playoff success... Which kyrie didn't sniff till lebron came to town..... And still wouldnt if lebron hadnt came.

I will say this... I wish lillard could finish around the basket like irving can.. Whoa man id forgotten the things irving could do around the hoop.

Sent from my LG-K373 using RealGM mobile app

[bondom34]

Dame also had a bunch of good defensive players and other capable role players. You make it sound like Kyrie was just riding LeBron's coattails, even when he was draining fadeaway jumpers and hitting ridiculous reverse layups at a high clip. It's almost impossible for a 1B to play better than Kyrie just did. You could argue he was the second best player in the whole playoffs. With Kyrie as a 1B, the Cavs won a championship with him getting 25 ppg 5 assists with 2 turnovers and 2 steals while shooting on 48/44/88 splits.Dame has NEVER come close to that in the playoffs, and most of Kyrie's points came off the dribble, so I don't really see how Lebron had much to do with him getting them. My point is that Kyrie maxed out as a 1B player. Literally, I'm not sure anyone's done a better job at it than him. He had the highest game score for a 1B or 2 in the NBA Finals ever. I think it was higher than Kobe's. Put Kyrie in any situation where there are good defenders and or with another capable star, and he's getting his 24 ppg on 54-58 TS%. I just don't know if that's true of Dame in the playoffs. Peep DWade's stats from the 2011 playoffs, and compare them with Kyrie's from the 2016 playoffs.

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/78 splits with 4.4 assists 7.1 rpg 1.3 blocks and 1.6 steals on a 30% usage rate
Kyrie 2016 playoffs: 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds 1.7 steals .6 blocks on a 30% usage rate.

When you consider Kyrie's shooting, it's clear that his postseason was comparable to peak Dwade's with LeBron. Ask yourself: is Dame really capable of this? In my view, no. He's not nearly the athlete and slasher that DWade was, and his midrange game isn't refined enough, he can't create space at will. He's a shooter that scores a lot of points.

Kyrie was fantastic ni the playoffs (at least the finals), but he hasn't produced that for more than a short span of time. Lillard has, period. And Kyrie isn't as good as Wade was, we've done that thread too.

[Pelly24]

Lillard never had the luxury of playing next to Bron. No reason to believe the Cavs would be worse off with Dame, so in that sense I do think they win regardless. I don't see it as an upgrade though, the way I do with Portland, because leadership qualities are less important for second fiddles.

Here's what I'll say about that: Dame still played with another top 12-15 player in LMA, and he still had a great perimeter defender next to him and a few other good role players. Dame still shot under 40% or around in all of his trips to the playoffs. Dame had a better streak of scoring than any Kyrie has had this season, but we've never seen him sustain any significant playoff success, and here's why: He's not as well-rounded an offensive player as Kyrie. Dame isn't as quick or crafty as Kyrie, his standing reach is lower than Kyrie's by four inches, his body control isn't as good so he's not as good of a finisher, and he's a much worse midrange shooter, while only arguably being a slightly better 3ball shooter. When Dame's not hitting his long range jumpers, his offense goes to hell. When Kyrie isn't hitting his 3ball, he can still be a one man fastbreak and score in transition. He can still hit floaters and fadeaway Kobe jumpshots. He's athletic and quick enough to slither through any defense and make reverse layups. Dame literally looked completely flustered by Klay Thompson. Another thing that's underrated about the Trail Blazers is the rapid improvement of CJ McCollum as probably an Eastern Conference All Star level player. That was as big of a reason for their success as Dame's play, or at least not too much less of one. That Trail Blazers team is MUCH better than Kyrie's pre-lebron Cavs. And Kyrie was also 19-21 years old, while Dame was 25 years old this past season, so not a good comparison. Overall, I haven't seen anything that says Kyrie definitely can't lead a team with decent talent to the playoffs. However, I have seen that Dame is not on the same level as Harden, Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Tony Parker a few years ago, and honestly, he was getting outplayed by Mike Conley before Conley got his face destroyed. Truth is, Dame is not someone who is capable of outplaying the best players in the NBA during a playoff series. Kyrie was definitely helped out by LeBron, but Kyrie arguably helped LeBron out almost as much as vice versa. Kyrie had a 30% usage rate during the playoffs while averaging 25 ppg on 48/44/91 splits with 5 assists and only 2 turnovers. He also averaged like 2 steals and half a block a game. Kyrie had a 24.7 PER during the playoffs. He was basically an elite shooting guard this past postseason. He was, no exaggerating, 2011 DWade this past postseason. Either that or 2002 Kobe. It was a postseason that rivals almost any other guard's over the past 10 years. He had LeBron, but he was also as successful as you can possibly be, so it's not like you can say anyone would have done better, because he did literally as well as it could be done by beating a banged up, but still elite team in the NBA finals, while putting up numbers that would easily get you Finals MVP most years. I just haven't seen any indication that Dame can do that. Those shots Kyrie was very efficiently hitting all playoffs aren't shots that anyone in the league now can hit regularly.

You based you post on playoff success... Which kyrie didn't sniff till lebron came to town..... And still wouldnt if lebron hadnt came.

I will say this... I wish lillard could finish around the basket like irving can.. Whoa man id forgotten the things irving could do around the hoop.

Sent from my LG-K373 using RealGM mobile app

It's funny how people hold Kyrie responsible for not making the playoffs, but then don't hold dame responsible for not winning a championship this year and not playing well when he DID have another star player, lol. I could see if Kyrie had underperformed in his two playoff seasons. But the fact is that Kyrie could not have done much better than he did individually. Kyrie gets an "A" or an "A+" for his playoff performances. Dame gets a "B" or "B+" at BEST for all of his postseason performances. His numbers always dropped across the board whether or not he played with another star. He got locked up against the clippers and the warriors. Not an apples to apples comparison, but its not like Dame has proven he can be successful against teams in the playoffs at any level. Kyrie has done so for two straight seasons, even coming off an injury.

[Pelly24]

Dame also had a bunch of good defensive players and other capable role players. You make it sound like Kyrie was just riding LeBron's coattails, even when he was draining fadeaway jumpers and hitting ridiculous reverse layups at a high clip. It's almost impossible for a 1B to play better than Kyrie just did. You could argue he was the second best player in the whole playoffs. With Kyrie as a 1B, the Cavs won a championship with him getting 25 ppg 5 assists with 2 turnovers and 2 steals while shooting on 48/44/88 splits.Dame has NEVER come close to that in the playoffs, and most of Kyrie's points came off the dribble, so I don't really see how Lebron had much to do with him getting them. My point is that Kyrie maxed out as a 1B player. Literally, I'm not sure anyone's done a better job at it than him. He had the highest game score for a 1B or 2 in the NBA Finals ever. I think it was higher than Kobe's. Put Kyrie in any situation where there are good defenders and or with another capable star, and he's getting his 24 ppg on 54-58 TS%. I just don't know if that's true of Dame in the playoffs. Peep DWade's stats from the 2011 playoffs, and compare them with Kyrie's from the 2016 playoffs.

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/78 splits with 4.4 assists 7.1 rpg 1.3 blocks and 1.6 steals on a 30% usage rate
Kyrie 2016 playoffs: 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds 1.7 steals .6 blocks on a 30% usage rate.

When you consider Kyrie's shooting, it's clear that his postseason was comparable to peak Dwade's with LeBron. Ask yourself: is Dame really capable of this? In my view, no. He's not nearly the athlete and slasher that DWade was, and his midrange game isn't refined enough, he can't create space at will. He's a shooter that scores a lot of points.

Kyrie was fantastic ni the playoffs (at least the finals), but he hasn't produced that for more than a short span of time. Lillard has, period. And Kyrie isn't as good as Wade was, we've done that thread too.

Kyrie led the Cavs in scoring against the pistons, shredded the raptors and drained threes all over the hawks. He was terrific literally the entire way through the playoffs, and his PER proves that. Kyrie is not as good a player as Dwade was. BUT, during this past year's playoffs, he ver nearly was. The stats I posted prove that. Kyrie's career Playoff PER is already higher than Curry's and getting to around westbrook level. Dame's isnt anywhere in that picture. I agree that Dame's past season is better than any of Kyrie's. That's definitely true. What I'm saying is that it isn't really all that reasonable to judge what Kyrie couldnt do as a 19-21 year old with what Dame could do as a 25-year-old with a better team. I'm also saying that because of Dame's one-dimensional scoring game, I can't see him doing what Kyrie just did in any situation, and prob. not with Lebron either. If he isn't making threes, he's done. I see a ceiling for Dame's ability as a first or second option on a chip team, where I ... don't for Irving. He was more responsible for his chip this year than any one of the celtics' big three were for theirs, and he played against a much better team than the '08 lakers. Put Kyrie on the 2014-2015 memphis grizzlies and I'm sure Kyrie does at least as well, if not significantly better because he's far more versatile.

[bondom34]

Dame also had a bunch of good defensive players and other capable role players. You make it sound like Kyrie was just riding LeBron's coattails, even when he was draining fadeaway jumpers and hitting ridiculous reverse layups at a high clip. It's almost impossible for a 1B to play better than Kyrie just did. You could argue he was the second best player in the whole playoffs. With Kyrie as a 1B, the Cavs won a championship with him getting 25 ppg 5 assists with 2 turnovers and 2 steals while shooting on 48/44/88 splits.Dame has NEVER come close to that in the playoffs, and most of Kyrie's points came off the dribble, so I don't really see how Lebron had much to do with him getting them. My point is that Kyrie maxed out as a 1B player. Literally, I'm not sure anyone's done a better job at it than him. He had the highest game score for a 1B or 2 in the NBA Finals ever. I think it was higher than Kobe's. Put Kyrie in any situation where there are good defenders and or with another capable star, and he's getting his 24 ppg on 54-58 TS%. I just don't know if that's true of Dame in the playoffs. Peep DWade's stats from the 2011 playoffs, and compare them with Kyrie's from the 2016 playoffs.

Dwade 2011 playoffs: 24.5 ppg on 49/27/78 splits with 4.4 assists 7.1 rpg 1.3 blocks and 1.6 steals on a 30% usage rate
Kyrie 2016 playoffs: 25.2 ppg on 48/44/88 splits with 4.7 assists, 3 rebounds 1.7 steals .6 blocks on a 30% usage rate.

When you consider Kyrie's shooting, it's clear that his postseason was comparable to peak Dwade's with LeBron. Ask yourself: is Dame really capable of this? In my view, no. He's not nearly the athlete and slasher that DWade was, and his midrange game isn't refined enough, he can't create space at will. He's a shooter that scores a lot of points.

Kyrie was fantastic ni the playoffs (at least the finals), but he hasn't produced that for more than a short span of time. Lillard has, period. And Kyrie isn't as good as Wade was, we've done that thread too.

Kyrie led the Cavs in scoring against the pistons, shredded the raptors and drained threes all over the hawks. He was terrific literally the entire way through the playoffs, and his PER proves that. Kyrie is not as good a player as Dwade was. BUT, during this past year's playoffs, he ver nearly was. The stats I posted prove that. Kyrie's career Playoff PER is already higher than Curry's and getting to around westbrook level. Dame's isnt anywhere in that picture. I agree that Dame's past season is better than any of Kyrie's. That's definitely true. What I'm saying is that it isn't really all that reasonable to judge what Kyrie couldnt do as a 19-21 year old with what Dame could do as a 25-year-old with a better team. I'm also saying that because of Dame's one-dimensional scoring game, I can't see him doing what Kyrie just did in any situation, and prob. not with Lebron either. If he isn't making threes, he's done. I see a ceiling for Dame's ability as a first or second option on a chip team, where I ... don't for Irving. He was more responsible for his chip this year than any one of the celtics' big three were for theirs, and he played against a much better team than the '08 lakers. Put Kyrie on the 2014-2015 memphis grizzlies and I'm sure Kyrie does at least as well, if not significantly better because he's far more versatile.

I'm not sure what your last few sentences are relevant to. But they've been in the league a similar number of years, and judging by improvement by years in the league (not age), I'd trust Dame's improvement more. Just my opinion. I've done this too many times, but to me Lillard is clearly the better of the two.

[Colbinii]

I'm not sure what your last few sentences are relevant to. But they've been in the league a similar number of years, and judging by improvement by years in the league (not age), I'd trust Dame's improvement more. Just my opinion. I've done this too many times, but to me Lillard is clearly the better of the two.

Huh? There isn't a single metric that has Lillard "clearly the better of the two".
I also fail to see how the improvements they have made is in Lillard's favor. Lillard has a career 55.9 TS%, last season he shot 56% TS%. He increased his volume as a scorer, which is impressive considering the fact that his efficiency hasn't dipper. However, his defense last year was hovering around James Harden-esque levels. As good as Lillard was offensively last season, he gave up nearly all of it on the defensive end. He was that bad, far worse than Kyrie in that regard, especially in the post-season.

[bondom34]

I'm not sure what your last few sentences are relevant to. But they've been in the league a similar number of years, and judging by improvement by years in the league (not age), I'd trust Dame's improvement more. Just my opinion. I've done this too many times, but to me Lillard is clearly the better of the two.

Huh? There isn't a single metric that has Lillard "clearly the better of the two".
I also fail to see how the improvements they have made is in Lillard's favor. Lillard has a career 55.9 TS%, last season he shot 56% TS%. He increased his volume as a scorer, which is impressive considering the fact that his efficiency hasn't dipper. However, his defense last year was hovering around James Harden-esque levels. As good as Lillard was offensively last season, he gave up nearly all of it on the defensive end. He was that bad, far worse than Kyrie in that regard, especially in the post-season.

RPM does.

But again, I'm out of this.

[Colbinii]

I'm not sure what your last few sentences are relevant to. But they've been in the league a similar number of years, and judging by improvement by years in the league (not age), I'd trust Dame's improvement more. Just my opinion. I've done this too many times, but to me Lillard is clearly the better of the two.

Huh? There isn't a single metric that has Lillard "clearly the better of the two".
I also fail to see how the improvements they have made is in Lillard's favor. Lillard has a career 55.9 TS%, last season he shot 56% TS%. He increased his volume as a scorer, which is impressive considering the fact that his efficiency hasn't dipper. However, his defense last year was hovering around James Harden-esque levels. As good as Lillard was offensively last season, he gave up nearly all of it on the defensive end. He was that bad, far worse than Kyrie in that regard, especially in the post-season.

RPM does.

But again, I'm out of this.

Again bondom, you are using a year where Irving wasn't in playing shape until a month before the post-season. If you look at 2015, their RPM's are 3.77 and 3.40, with Lillard slightly ahead of Irving.

[bondom34]

Right. Still ahead,