2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[dautjazz]

Prior to every season, the guys who will put up "monster numbers" on middling-late seed playoff teams always get overrated and never end up finishing as high as people think...

It's not all about raw box-score numbers. When has it ever been that way? This isn't the ROTY voting. Heck, Harden's last year didn't even get him on an All-NBA team and he put up 29/7.5/6..

Generally the best player on one of the 2-3 best teams in the league tends to win the award, and that usually goes along with being the best player in the league per not only the box-score but also impact stats. Sure you have exceptions like 2011 Rose, but people seem to think that LeBron not winning that year was entirely due to the narrative that had developed against him. Make no mistake LeBron's numbers were good enough to win, but the record disparity between the Bulls and the Heat was what really made it hard for him to win. Now back then advanced stats weren't as readily available and accepted so not only did people see Rose's raw numbers which upon first glance stood up well next to LeBron's, but they looked at the Bulls' +4 advantage in the win column and their 3-0 record against the Heat during RS matchups, and determined Rose was the best, most impactful player on the year, especially considering he led his team to a better record without any player as good as a guy like Wade on it. (Note: That doesn't mean I think Rose deserved it. RAPM, BPM, and other stats make it hard to argue Rose over LeBron, but I'm just analyzing it from the voters' perspective.)

Harden and Westbrook could put up big numbers, but if they're not on very good teams, no one's going to care what they're doing. The actual impact has to be there and that will be reflected in the win column in the voters' eyes. If either one of Durant or Curry has a great season while leading a team 10-15 wins above the next closest one in the league, I firmly believe one of them will win the award. If the Heat didn't "only" put up 58 wins, I think LeBron would've won in 2011, too. Also if LeBron leads the Cavs to 60+ wins (and the Dubs get around 67) while having an MVP-worthy year, he will have a very good case himself. But no middling playoff teams will not have this season's MVP on it, and you can quote me on that.

and thats one of the main reasons nobody outside of diehards, kids, and rappers go hard for the nba. The voting process in the nba is a joke, their hall of fame sucks, considering they let almost everyone and their mom in it. The league while being fun to watch takes 2nd to no one when it comes to how their voting process on who wins what awards feel like. More NBA voters play favorites than the more deserving guy winning. I'll give you a recent example. We all know Cam Newton is NOT the most well liked of NFL players, but when it came time to hand out MVP and other awards, the voters wouldnt just give it to carson palmer because they hate cam. thats the difference, That happens a LOT in the NBA, LeBron should have long been unaimous MVP before Curry

I don't like Harden, but it's hard for me to accept that Harden wasn't deserving over Klay and Lowry, but yes record has an obvious influence on the voting, I mean look at DeAndre Jordan being in the first team over Cousins, and Anthony Davis not making a team. I don't know a lot of people that would take Green or Aldridge over Davis.

As far as MVP, it's a regular season award, and it weighs impact on one of the best teams, and the Warriors had a historic season, it was a no brainer to give it to Curry. Lebron coasts most of the season now, I mean he still puts up phenomenom numbers, but Curry's were quite outer worldly in the season, and the 73 wins speaks for itself. Lebron is unquestionably the best player of the last 2 years (and well beyond that), but he didn't deserve the regular season MVP.

[Edrees]

Personally, I think it's silly to vote for anyone other than Lebron unless that players team wins more games. It makes sense to vote for "best player on best team" but there's honestly zero arguement why a player like westbrook or harden is better than Lebron in any given situation, unless those players can win more games than Lebron which they can't. Even "coasting" Lebron is guaranteed 55 wins this year. Only Durant, Curry and Kawhi's teams will win more games than Lebron.

Best player on best team -----> Winner is Durant, Curry or Kawhi, or a dark horse candidate like CP3 etc.
Best actual player ---> Winner is Lebron
Player who produces most wins with the least --> Lebron

No matter what your selection process is, I see no argument for Harden of Westbrook as being the favorite.

that would have to be harden, nobody does more with less than harden.. lebron maybe when he was younger, but not anymore the cavs are stacked

Sorry but no. With Lebron on the rockets, that team wins a LOT more than 41 games last year, and with Harden on last year's cavs, there is no way they won that many games and get the 1st seed. Lebron has way more of an impact even now.

[Edrees]

Personally, I think it's silly to vote for anyone other than Lebron unless that players team wins more games. It makes sense to vote for "best player on best team" but there's honestly zero arguement why a player like westbrook or harden is better than Lebron in any given situation, unless those players can win more games than Lebron which they can't. Even "coasting" Lebron is guaranteed 55 wins this year. Only Durant, Curry and Kawhi's teams will win more games than Lebron.

Best player on best team -----> Winner is Durant, Curry or Kawhi, or a dark horse candidate like CP3 etc.
Best actual player ---> Winner is Lebron
Player who produces most wins with the least --> Lebron

No matter what your selection process is, I see no argument for Harden of Westbrook as being the favorite.

Well the point is that you have to show up instead of coast. If Lebron isn't playing as good as he did in the playoffs, it makes no sense to give it him because of what he might do in the playoffs. Though I have no idea why you're making the Cavs seem like bottom barrel that Lebron has to carry.

What I'm saying is that even coasting Lebron can get more wins than than Westbrook or Harden, why shouldn't he deserve it more than they do? It's pretty sad that even if he coasts he can win more games than these two players, than that tells you how much more he deserves MVP than either player.

[Impuniti]

Personally, I think it's silly to vote for anyone other than Lebron unless that players team wins more games. It makes sense to vote for "best player on best team" but there's honestly zero arguement why a player like westbrook or harden is better than Lebron in any given situation, unless those players can win more games than Lebron which they can't. Even "coasting" Lebron is guaranteed 55 wins this year. Only Durant, Curry and Kawhi's teams will win more games than Lebron.

Best player on best team -----> Winner is Durant, Curry or Kawhi, or a dark horse candidate like CP3 etc.
Best actual player ---> Winner is Lebron
Player who produces most wins with the least --> Lebron

No matter what your selection process is, I see no argument for Harden of Westbrook as being the favorite.

Well the point is that you have to show up instead of coast. If Lebron isn't playing as good as he did in the playoffs, it makes no sense to give it him because of what he might do in the playoffs. Though I have no idea why you're making the Cavs seem like bottom barrel that Lebron has to carry.

What I'm saying is that even coasting Lebron can get more wins than than Westbrook or Harden, why shouldn't he deserve it more than they do? It's pretty sad that even if he coasts he can win more games than these two players, than that tells you how much more he deserves MVP than either player.

If that's the case, then he will deserve it. We have the rest of the season to find out. The huge downsides for both Westbrook and Harden is where their team will finish, as some people seem to be under the wrong impression that them finishing 4th/5th in the west will mean they have a chance in hell in sniffing an MVP title. Lebron on the other hand will finish at the absolute worst in 3rd but likely 1st.

[HardenTime]

Personally, I think it's silly to vote for anyone other than Lebron unless that players team wins more games. It makes sense to vote for "best player on best team" but there's honestly zero arguement why a player like westbrook or harden is better than Lebron in any given situation, unless those players can win more games than Lebron which they can't. Even "coasting" Lebron is guaranteed 55 wins this year. Only Durant, Curry and Kawhi's teams will win more games than Lebron.

Best player on best team -----> Winner is Durant, Curry or Kawhi, or a dark horse candidate like CP3 etc.
Best actual player ---> Winner is Lebron
Player who produces most wins with the least --> Lebron

No matter what your selection process is, I see no argument for Harden of Westbrook as being the favorite.

that would have to be harden, nobody does more with less than harden.. lebron maybe when he was younger, but not anymore the cavs are stacked

Sorry but no. With Lebron on the rockets, that team wins a LOT more than 41 games last year, and with Harden on last year's cavs, there is no way they won that many games and get the 1st seed. Lebron has way more of an impact even now.

last year they dont, lebron is a great player. but on the rockets he wouldnt have a kyrie, or kevin love basically 2 other allstars and he would also be playing in the southwest division. harden would win 50 games every year with the cavs roster playing in the east

[ThumbsUpBaby]

that would have to be harden, nobody does more with less than harden.. lebron maybe when he was younger, but not anymore the cavs are stacked

Sorry but no. With Lebron on the rockets, that team wins a LOT more than 41 games last year, and with Harden on last year's cavs, there is no way they won that many games and get the 1st seed. Lebron has way more of an impact even now.

last year they dont, lebron is a great player. but on the rockets he wouldnt have a kyrie, or kevin love basically 2 other allstars and he would also be playing in the southwest division. harden would win 50 games every year with the cavs roster playing in the east

LeBron had a worse supporting cast during the late 2000s and still led them to 60 wins. I'm 100% sure he would've led the Rockets to a top 4 seed.

[HardenTime]

Sorry but no. With Lebron on the rockets, that team wins a LOT more than 41 games last year, and with Harden on last year's cavs, there is no way they won that many games and get the 1st seed. Lebron has way more of an impact even now.

last year they dont, lebron is a great player. but on the rockets he wouldnt have a kyrie, or kevin love basically 2 other allstars and he would also be playing in the southwest division. harden would win 50 games every year with the cavs roster playing in the east

LeBron had a worse supporting cast during the late 2000s and still led them to 60 wins. I'm 100% sure he would've led the Rockets to a top 4 seed.

the eastern confernce was a joke back then... the warriors won 73, and the spurs almost won 70 last year thats what harden was up againist... with no other legit scoring option on his team

[ThumbsUpBaby]

last year they dont, lebron is a great player. but on the rockets he wouldnt have a kyrie, or kevin love basically 2 other allstars and he would also be playing in the southwest division. harden would win 50 games every year with the cavs roster playing in the east

LeBron had a worse supporting cast during the late 2000s and still led them to 60 wins. I'm 100% sure he would've led the Rockets to a top 4 seed.

the eastern confernce was a joke back then... the warriors won 73, and the spurs almost won 70 last year thats what harden was up againist... with no other legit scoring option on his team

Your memories must be in the clouds. The Eastern Conference was far from a joke compared to recent times. As a matter of fact, it was a lot better than what we have today (the 2nd seed at the East had a better record than the Lakers, who were 1st in the West). Also, IIRC the 2009-2010 Cavaliers team was around 60% win rate (correct me if I'm wrong) against the West which includes the elites, so honestly that argument isn't even that good to begin with.

[Edrees]

last year they dont, lebron is a great player. but on the rockets he wouldnt have a kyrie, or kevin love basically 2 other allstars and he would also be playing in the southwest division. harden would win 50 games every year with the cavs roster playing in the east

LeBron had a worse supporting cast during the late 2000s and still led them to 60 wins. I'm 100% sure he would've led the Rockets to a top 4 seed.

the eastern confernce was a joke back then... the warriors won 73, and the spurs almost won 70 last year thats what harden was up againist... with no other legit scoring option on his team

The western conference was a joke last year too, only 41 wins for 8th seed. That's no better than what the East was back then.

BTW, Kyrie missed half the season and Love wasn't an all star last season.

[HardenTime]

but they are in effect all-star players

[Mich3006]

1. Westbrook
2. Westbrook
3. Westbrook

With the Durant situation and all of that, there´s no doubt about it that...
... Russ will put up MJ numbers...
... the league will honor him if OKC could reach a top 5 spot imo.

Kawhi, James (only if he´s playing an "out of this world" season) and maybe PG or Harden (doubt it though) could be in the conversation as well but for now, Russ is the clear favorite.

[rygar]

1. Westbrook
2. Kawhi
3. Melo

These are my top 3. Some of the best players from some of the best teams. Lebron has won many so he won't get the votes even if he deserved them. GS has too many candidates.

[Statlanta]

Lebron has won many so he won't get the votes even if he deserved them. GS has too many candidates.

I see your reasoning but it's been 3 years since he won an MVP and he just won a title in Cleveland. If there is anybody that has the voter narrative and team success it's him even if he coasts. Voter fatigue can only work for so long especially when they did him in with Rose in 2011(best player on best regular season team). I don't see how Melo has a better case than him.

[qm22]

This year the default candidate will be LeBron. With Durant joining GS and the loss at the finals, people will recognize and want to reward LeBron. There are always darkhorse guys who catalyze a team overperforming and with all-star-like numbers they have a good chance at the MVP if there is a suitable narrative.
In 2005 the narrative was "makes teammates better", in 2011 it was "judgmental are displeased with "The Decision" and we obviously don't have control over our biases and while we're at it in snubbing the better player we may as well pick Rose over Dwight, Dirk, Durant, etc because we like him".
Westbrook will be the default narrative guy. If Thunder are a top 4 seed he's likely the MVP. It's possible but I'm not expecting the Thunder to be so good.

If somehow LeBron *really* coasted and the Cavs won only 50 games or so, and GSW outdid their previous record, I still think Curry won't have a chance. They'd sooner give it to Green.

[zimpy27]

1. Westbrook
2. Westbrook
3. Westbrook

With the Durant situation and all of that, there´s no doubt about it that...
... Russ will put up MJ numbers...
... the league will honor him if OKC could reach a top 5 spot imo.

Kawhi, James (only if he´s playing an "out of this world" season) and maybe PG or Harden (doubt it though) could be in the conversation as well but for now, Russ is the clear favorite.

So Jordan is the only player to win it out of the top 2 in a conference in the past 30 years. That year Jordan was DPOY while putting up 35 points, 6 rebs, 6 assists. Highest PER of his career with the best defensive season and easily most WS in a season he ever had (top 10 all time). It was the best season MJ ever had and he only just scraped in as the MVP with the Bulls coming 3rd in the east with 50 wins.

I'm sorry but unless Westbrook averages a triple double while his team wins more than 50 he won't be winning the MVP.

[Mich3006]

1. Westbrook
2. Westbrook
3. Westbrook

With the Durant situation and all of that, there´s no doubt about it that...
... Russ will put up MJ numbers...
... the league will honor him if OKC could reach a top 5 spot imo.

Kawhi, James (only if he´s playing an "out of this world" season) and maybe PG or Harden (doubt it though) could be in the conversation as well but for now, Russ is the clear favorite.

So Jordan is the only player to win it out of the top 2 in a conference in the past 30 years. That year Jordan was DPOY while putting up 35 points, 6 rebs, 6 assists. Highest PER of his career with the best defensive season and easily most WS in a season he ever had (top 10 all time). It was the best season MJ ever had and he only just scraped in as the MVP with the Bulls coming 3rd in the east with 50 wins.

I'm sorry but unless Westbrook averages a triple double while his team wins more than 50 he won't be winning the MVP.

It wasn´t my intention to compare Westbrook with MJ, I only tried to point out what Westbrook will do next year - for example a 32/7/10 season is a strong possiblity imo and that´s MVP numbers

[dautjazz]

1. Westbrook
2. Westbrook
3. Westbrook

With the Durant situation and all of that, there´s no doubt about it that...
... Russ will put up MJ numbers...
... the league will honor him if OKC could reach a top 5 spot imo.

Kawhi, James (only if he´s playing an "out of this world" season) and maybe PG or Harden (doubt it though) could be in the conversation as well but for now, Russ is the clear favorite.

I would love to see Westbrook win it, but I don't see it. OKC was a 55 win team last year with Westbrook playing 80 games, and obviously with Durant Take out Durant, and you're really putting a ton of pressure on Westbrook. He has to be healthy all year long to even sniff 50 wins. I don't think 50-32 would even be enough, because that would probably place them behind GS, SA, Cleveland, LAC, Utah, and maybe the Raptors and Celtics. An 8th place team overall (maybe worse), isn't going to get a player an MVP. MJ was the last person to only have 50 wins and win an MVP, that was in 1987-88, but he was 35ppg 5.5rpg 5.9apg 3.2spg 1.6bpg and .535 from the field. I mean, if Russell has 30/8/10 type of season, it will be hard to deny him if he gets 50 wins too.

It will fun to see what Westbrook can put up without Durant though, he's going to be a monster, near triple double.

[primopastalove2]

They are not going to give the MVP to second tier stars who won 45ish times, when there are much better superstars on 60+ win teams.

[zimpy27]

The more I think about the more I think LeBron James will be MVP.

I didn't realise it but Lue coaching the team actually improved LeBrons stats per game with +0.7 rebs, +0.9 assists, +0.02 %ts, +0.6 pts, -0.3 minutes.

I think that would've been good enough to push his PER to 30 since it was already at 28 with half a year of those stats. Also this was with Irving back in the team playing 30+ minutes.

[Ballerhogger]

LeBron
Westbrook
Durant