Preseason Game 4 - Phoenix Suns at Utah Jazz

[MathiasPW]

Shocking, I tell you, how I come in the day after the game, and see comment after comment about Len's 'suckiness', yet when I watched the highlights, I noticed that Len started, and was in when we were in the game early, then he leaves, and we fall apart, he come back in the 2nd, when we make our big run to get back in, and starts the 3rd, with a nice play or two during that period, and plays well in the 4th with our run there as well, and has some more nice plays (but of course, that was against scrubs--hate to tell you, but the whole game was against 'scrubs' with 4 starters not even playing).

Len had a +3 for a +/-, the rest of our starters had 'minuses', except Dudley, who was only in early. Chriss had a -14, Barbosa a -10, Booker, Bledsoe, and Warren with 'minuses'...

The point is, Len may not have looked good against, what has been argued, one of the top 5 Centers in the NBA...and has had to face him twice now in 4 games. So he's not as good as Gobert defensively...ok, we knew that. Gobert's a bad match-up for Len, but that's no reason dis Len over and over in every game thread. I didn't see many, if any, negative comments about Warren, Bledsoe, or Booker on their less than stellar nights, and certainly not nearly as many as Len.

Just amazing how fans here just pile on Len, when he didn't play any worse then the other 3, comparatively...and though I didn't watch the game, just the highlights, Booker and Warren were no better, and probably worse on the defensive end, and not much better on the offensive end (though Booker was, I suppose). I love Warren, but ZERO Rebounds, FTs, Asts, or Blks??

Len was 9/10 on FTs. Yeah, I know...big deal...but in a tight game like this, had he shot 70% instead of 90%, we would've lost this game. And Len fought hard down low on a few occasions and didn't give up on the play offensively, and that was good to see as well.

Anyway, it's just interesting how many more negative comments thrown Len's way than others, when he was on the positive end of the +/-, yet others were not. Len left the game, and the team fell apart, from what I noticed of the highlights. That's kind of telling to me, IMO...

These are all good points, and I had noticed that +/- score myself as well. His presence is felt defensively, we just need to get him to calm down offensively.

Len padded his stats in the 4th quarter against scrubs.

[LacosteM]

Len plays too soft for his size. From what I've seen he's shaping up to be a really poor man Vucevic.

[phnart]

what an ending...I watched off an on for most of the game and it was one of the uglier, yet most satisfying preseason games I've ever seen.

I love that they didn't quit..even if there weren't a ton of bright spots.

[kennydorglas]

My main beef with Len is: why in the hell he settles for fancy scores that he clearly cant manage to make?
Maybe he's trying to play up to his top5 pick potential but there's no need for him to even try it.

Just work in the PNR, dive hard for Oreb, cash-in some easy ones and maybe hit a wide open mid range shot.
That's it.

Rebound, box out, protect the paint, rotate well enough to help off others and settle good screens.

I suspect with Len it's all about calming his nerves. He looked nervous out there last night. I also suspect the coaching staff has given him the green light to go for it offensively because in practice where he is more comfortable he is able to complete a lot of those shots.

He needs to settle down, get low, play low and let the game come to him more naturally instead of forcing it. Two inside, one outside. Not 1 inside, 3 outside.

Yeah, just take what the defense gives to you. We dont need him to be a force in the block.
If he eventually become a post game monster, ok. But he needs to change his approach fast.

[Saberestar]

Len played HORRIBLE yesterday, I do not care what the +/- said or the highlights... I saw the complete game (and it was tough) and he was terrible on both sides of the floor.

In the second half he was better against Dawson and he made his free throws. But overall a really bad game.

I think that Len is a decent C and he is gonna play better in the future...hopefully this season.

[kennydorglas]

Len plays too soft for his size. From what I've seen he's shaping up to be a really poor man Vucevic.

He was a pretty good defensive force in his second year. I dont know why he regressed this much.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

As bad as Len was, TJ was worse. What's going on? TJ was all about tough buckets. Right now, he's not making anything. Showing no aggression, basically invisible on the floor, as evidenced by his 0 REB 0 AST 0 STL 0 BLK 4 TO last night. Where's David West when you need him?

[Damkac]

If somebody would make "Archie Goodwin's top 10 plays" video it would look like he is amazing player.
But if you watch him in games then he is not.
It's annoying that since they entered the league Archie and Len seems to not develop much. I lost faith they will ever be much better than they are now.
OK maybe it's not fair saying that Len didn't get any better. He gets more pts and rbs ane less fouls per 36 each year. Also made huge progress in assists. But on the other hand his fg%, blocks and turnovers was much worse in his 3rd year than in 2nd year.
With Archie it's ever hard to say which year was the best for him. But it's easy to say he is not getting much better with experience.

Honestly I wouldn't mind if everyone on the team gets traded except Booker, Chriss, Bender and Warren. But maybe I'm bit overreacting after terrible game.

Starting lineup needs some change. IIRC Suns started terrible in every game so far?

[Jdiddy701]

So I've watched the game winning dunk many times. Earl Watson and Corbin telling Goodwin to go on that play was funny. Also, Watson played it so cool with no emotion after the dunk, while everyone else went nuts.

Watson is the man. Chandler was talking stuff to the crowd. Lol


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[NavLDO]

Shocking, I tell you, how I come in the day after the game, and see comment after comment about Len's 'suckiness', yet when I watched the highlights, I noticed that Len started, and was in when we were in the game early, then he leaves, and we fall apart, he come back in the 2nd, when we make our big run to get back in, and starts the 3rd, with a nice play or two during that period, and plays well in the 4th with our run there as well, and has some more nice plays (but of course, that was against scrubs--hate to tell you, but the whole game was against 'scrubs' with 4 starters not even playing).

Len had a +3 for a +/-, the rest of our starters had 'minuses', except Dudley, who was only in early. Chriss had a -14, Barbosa a -10, Booker, Bledsoe, and Warren with 'minuses'...

The point is, Len may not have looked good against, what has been argued, one of the top 5 Centers in the NBA...and has had to face him twice now in 4 games. So he's not as good as Gobert defensively...ok, we knew that. Gobert's a bad match-up for Len, but that's no reason dis Len over and over in every game thread. I didn't see many, if any, negative comments about Warren, Bledsoe, or Booker on their less than stellar nights, and certainly not nearly as many as Len.

Just amazing how fans here just pile on Len, when he didn't play any worse then the other 3, comparatively...and though I didn't watch the game, just the highlights, Booker and Warren were no better, and probably worse on the defensive end, and not much better on the offensive end (though Booker was, I suppose). I love Warren, but ZERO Rebounds, FTs, Asts, or Blks??

Len was 9/10 on FTs. Yeah, I know...big deal...but in a tight game like this, had he shot 70% instead of 90%, we would've lost this game. And Len fought hard down low on a few occasions and didn't give up on the play offensively, and that was good to see as well.

Anyway, it's just interesting how many more negative comments thrown Len's way than others, when he was on the positive end of the +/-, yet others were not. Len left the game, and the team fell apart, from what I noticed of the highlights. That's kind of telling to me, IMO...

These are all good points, and I had noticed that +/- score myself as well. His presence is felt defensively, we just need to get him to calm down offensively.

Thank you. It's nice to see one fan in here not just continue to dump on Len. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve some negative comments, just that when you look back through this thread, there are at LEAST 20 posts on the negative against Len, when he wasn't even the worst player on the floor last night. Was he great? Good, even? No, probably about 'average' from what I saw, but nobody else was either, but they all get a pass?

I'm not a 'Len apologist'; if he sucks this season, he' got to go. But it's been 4 preseason games, 2 against an elite defender. Yeah, it sucks that Gobert is as awesome as he is defensively, and Len isn't as good, but I'll wait till 20-30 games into the season before I openly cast judgment on Len; we are 4 games into preseason, and half a dozen posters here have already given up on Len. Glad we are paying Bledsoe $14M, and Knight $12.6M to suck in preseason, as well, when we are paying Len about 1/3 of what each of them make.

Len posts -2, -2, +3, +3

while...

Bledsoe posts +8, +5, -1, -5
Knight posts -6, -9, +1, and a 'his vag hurts'
Warren posts +11, -1, -6, and -4

...and those 3 combined do not receive the negative attention Len has received.

All I'm saying is the hate should be averaged out a bit, is all.

[NavLDO]

I look awesome on highlight reels too

I was looking at Len's play when the highlight wasn't about him, which was 90% of the highlights.

But just ignore the rest of the evidence...Bledsoe, Knight, and Warren have all looked awesome, while Len has looked like trash, right?

and 5 of 13 and 3 of 9, with attaining a +6, -6, -3, and -4 is killing it as well, right? Booker can do no wrong, either?

But go ahead and concentrate the hate on one guy, because the other kids are doing it and it's easy, being 4 games into preseason...

[darealjuice]

The only reason Len's +/- was any good last night is because he came in to feast on guys that won't be anywhere near the Jazz's regular season roster. He was getting dominated by Gobert last night, as per usual. +/- is a pretty bad stat to go by during preseason with how deep team's rotations are compared to regular season rotations.

[letsgosuns]

I criticized Len for last night's game, but I also heavily criticized Bledsoe. I do not like the way he played. Bledsoe has consistently talked about leading the team and I do not see that happening. It seems like he plays in slow motion half the game and never goes start to finish at full speed. Notice how when Ulis plays, he is always the same. Looks to push the ball every time and actually runs the offense. Too many times Bledsoe dribbles around for 10+ seconds, create nothing, and then passes the ball to another teammate to bail him out.

I have also criticized Knight whenever he plays. In addition, I do not like the way Warren is playing as a starter. Not at all. He is not doing much out there outside of just waiting for the ball on cuts to the hoop. I mentioned this the other day but I will say it again. I think if the Suns trade Knight, they could move Warren to the bench to be the sixth man. He might be better suited for that, at least this season. There were times in the past few games where I forgot Warren was even out there because he had no impact.

Now my main reason for disappointment in Len is because of the lack of improvement. In fact, I see the opposite. I see regression in his game. He looks weaker than in previous seasons. He is shooting 35% fg in preseason. He shot 42% last year and 51% the year before that. He has 17 fouls already in only 83 minutes played. His interior defense does not look intimidating. There were many games in his second season where he was getting 4-6 blocks a game. He has not come close to that since that season. When he started the game off last night missing a wide open dunk on the first possession, I could not believe it. The guy is 7'1". Play like it!

[NavLDO]

Shocking, I tell you, how I come in the day after the game, and see comment after comment about Len's 'suckiness', yet when I watched the highlights, I noticed that Len started, and was in when we were in the game early, then he leaves, and we fall apart, he come back in the 2nd, when we make our big run to get back in, and starts the 3rd, with a nice play or two during that period, and plays well in the 4th with our run there as well, and has some more nice plays (but of course, that was against scrubs--hate to tell you, but the whole game was against 'scrubs' with 4 starters not even playing).

Len had a +3 for a +/-, the rest of our starters had 'minuses', except Dudley, who was only in early. Chriss had a -14, Barbosa a -10, Booker, Bledsoe, and Warren with 'minuses'...

The point is, Len may not have looked good against, what has been argued, one of the top 5 Centers in the NBA...and has had to face him twice now in 4 games. So he's not as good as Gobert defensively...ok, we knew that. Gobert's a bad match-up for Len, but that's no reason dis Len over and over in every game thread. I didn't see many, if any, negative comments about Warren, Bledsoe, or Booker on their less than stellar nights, and certainly not nearly as many as Len.

Just amazing how fans here just pile on Len, when he didn't play any worse then the other 3, comparatively...and though I didn't watch the game, just the highlights, Booker and Warren were no better, and probably worse on the defensive end, and not much better on the offensive end (though Booker was, I suppose). I love Warren, but ZERO Rebounds, FTs, Asts, or Blks??

Len was 9/10 on FTs. Yeah, I know...big deal...but in a tight game like this, had he shot 70% instead of 90%, we would've lost this game. And Len fought hard down low on a few occasions and didn't give up on the play offensively, and that was good to see as well.

Anyway, it's just interesting how many more negative comments thrown Len's way than others, when he was on the positive end of the +/-, yet others were not. Len left the game, and the team fell apart, from what I noticed of the highlights. That's kind of telling to me, IMO...

These are all good points, and I had noticed that +/- score myself as well. His presence is felt defensively, we just need to get him to calm down offensively.

Len padded his stats in the 4th quarter against scrubs.

Len entered the gm in the 2nd Qtr when we were down 43-16, and face Gobert most of that time, and we ended the Qtr 58-40. Then he starts the 3rd Qtr as we further close the gap and stays in until the score is 62-47, facing Gobert during that time, then Gobert left when it was 62-50. Then he starts the 4th Qtr when we are 88-78, then 'feasts' on the scrubs, and gets the game to within 2 points at one point, and finally leaves the game when we are down by 7, with playing only 5 minutes and change in the 4th, so he didn't just do his damage against scrubs in the 4th. He played almost 15 minutes the rest of the game; a lot of that againt Gobert.

But you go on ahead with your version of the events...and as I mentioned in the post you quoted, 3 of 5 of Utah's starters were out of this game (Not 4 as I had originally stated). The only starters playing was?? Yep, you guessed it, Gobert...Len's opponent, and Mack, Bledsoe's opponent. So why, praytell, did our other players stink it up playing against 'scrubs' for the whole game vs just the 4th Qtr??? Thoughts on that??

[Zelaznyrules]

Shocking, I tell you, how I come in the day after the game, and see comment after comment about Len's 'suckiness', yet when I watched the highlights, I noticed that Len started, and was in when we were in the game early, then he leaves, and we fall apart, he come back in the 2nd, when we make our big run to get back in, and starts the 3rd, with a nice play or two during that period, and plays well in the 4th with our run there as well, and has some more nice plays (but of course, that was against scrubs--hate to tell you, but the whole game was against 'scrubs' with 4 starters not even playing).

That isn't quite accurate. As is often the case, stats and highlights don't tell the story. Len started the game and Utah had their way with him, not just Gobert. We pulled Len with Gobert shooting his second free throw and Utah up 12 - 2. In a vain attempt to keep from once again getting killed while playing them traditionally, we went small and things went from really bad to even worse. Despite the +/- numbers, in no way does Len deserve anything but blame for the 30 point deficit.

Alex failed to do his job while he was on the court which forced us to play without a center, that's all on him and he deserves the beating he's been taking. Did he play a little better in the second half? Sure. But that's life in the NBA, when a team gets a giant lead they often take the foot of the pedal and allow the other team to get things going. We looked pretty good at times against their scrubs and against their unmotivated starters but we got our butts kicked when both teams were still playing basketball. Len wasn't the only reason but he was the main one IMO.

[Jdiddy701]

The only reason Len's +/- was any good last night is because he came in to feast on guys that won't be anywhere near the Jazz's regular season roster. He was getting dominated by Gobert last night, as per usual. +/- is a pretty bad stat to go by during preseason with how deep team's rotations are compared to regular season rotations.

Yeah and all the Jazz players were just waived.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Zelaznyrules]

I know this would never happen but had we played the entire game the way we played the first 4 minutes and 10 seconds while Len was still in the game, we'd have scored fewer than 24 points for the entire night. And Utah would have scored in the 140's. It's hard to blame the Jazz for taking the rest of the game off.

[NavLDO]

Shocking, I tell you, how I come in the day after the game, and see comment after comment about Len's 'suckiness', yet when I watched the highlights, I noticed that Len started, and was in when we were in the game early, then he leaves, and we fall apart, he come back in the 2nd, when we make our big run to get back in, and starts the 3rd, with a nice play or two during that period, and plays well in the 4th with our run there as well, and has some more nice plays (but of course, that was against scrubs--hate to tell you, but the whole game was against 'scrubs' with 4 starters not even playing).

That isn't quite accurate. As is often the case, stats and highlights don't tell the story. Len started the game and Utah had their way with him, not just Gobert. We pulled Len with Gobert shooting his second free throw and Utah up 12 - 2. In a vain attempt to keep from once again getting killed while playing them traditionally, we went small and things went from really bad to even worse. Despite the +/- numbers, in no way does Len deserve anything but blame for the 30 point deficit.

-- So Len deserves blame for the time he wasn't even in the game?? Are you kidding me?? Do you ACTUALLY believe what you are spewing??? Just, wow...he left down 12-2, came back in 43-16...so Len is responsible for the next 30 points made when he wasn't in?? But he's in no way responsible for us getting back into the game before the half...you know, the time he was in, against Gobert the whole time, when we went from 43-16 to 58-40??

Alex failed to do his job while he was on the court which forced us to play without a center, that's all on him and he deserves the beating he's been taking.

That's Len's fault? He was the ONLY one playing poorly? Was it his call not to bring in Alan Williams, instead of Chriss? You think maybe the coach has some blame for who he puts in and when? Did he need to sit Len for 11 game minutes?? Man, you're REALLY reaching here to blame Len; this goes beyond unbelievable. Just Amazing....

Did he play a little better in the second half? Sure. But that's life in the NBA, when a team gets a giant lead they often take the foot of the pedal and allow the other team to get things going. We looked pretty good at times against their scrubs and against their unmotivated starters but we got our butts kicked when both teams were still playing basketball. Len wasn't the only reason but he was the main one IMO.

[/quote]

[darealjuice]

NavLDO no one is saying everyone on the team played good but Len, they're saying that Len was ESPECIALLY bad compared to everyone else. And yes Len had to see the bench for 11 minutes, he was getting dominated and fouling like crazy. In the first 4 minutes of last night's game, he had a clear path foul, a defensive 3-seconds call, 2 personal fouls, and an additional turnover. He looked terrible coming out and got into foul trouble really early.

[Zelaznyrules]

[color=#FF0000] -- [b]So Len deserves blame for the time he wasn't even in the game?? Are you kidding me?? Do you ACTUALLY believe what you are spewing??? Just, wow...he left down 12-2, came back in 43-16...so Len is responsible for the next 30 points made when he wasn't in?? But he's in no way responsible for us getting back into the game before the half...you know, the time he was in, against Gobert the whole time, when we went from 43-16 to 58-40??[/b]

Absolutely. You think he should be excused for playing horribly simply because we had the option to bring in our 3rd string center?

IMO, we didn't fight our way back into the game. Utah, recognizing that we are far inferior to them, rolled over and played dead. It happens all the time in the NBA. Spewing? I have no agenda here. I'm a Suns fan. I'm not out to get Len. We need him. I'm frustrated because we aren't getting anything from him of note.