Preseason Game 4 - Phoenix Suns at Utah Jazz

[letsgosuns]

I think people are more disappointed in Len as a whole rather than one game. He was the fifth pick of the draft and is entering his fourth season. His averages in the preseason over four games are 8 pts, 6 rbs, 1 blk 35% fg, 61% ft, and 4 fouls in 21 minutes. If Bender or Chriss have averages like that during their fourth preseason in the NBA, people will be beyond disappointed. And put that into perspective. Bender was the fourth pick and Chriss was the eighth pick. Top ten picks are supposed to have figured it out by their fourth season. This is arguably the worst I have seen Len play since his rookie year. I do hope he turns it around though. I really mean that.

[Jdiddy701]

I agree. As bad as Len has been, we need him to turn it around. I really hope I'm wrong about him.


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[bwgood77]

I think people are more disappointed in Len as a whole rather than one game. He was the fifth pick of the draft and is entering his fourth season. His averages in the preseason over four games are 8 pts, 6 rbs, 1 blk 35% fg, 61% ft, and 4 fouls in 21 minutes. If Bender or Chriss have averages like that during their fourth preseason in the NBA, people will be beyond disappointed. And put that into perspective. Bender was the fourth pick and Chriss was the eighth pick. Top ten picks are supposed to have figured it out by their fourth season. This is arguably the worst I have seen Len play since his rookie year. I do hope he turns it around though. I really mean that.

I just really cannot understand how a 7 footer can shoot 35%? I mean it almost seems like, if you make it to the pro level and are a 7 footer, you'd have to try to be that bad.

I mean, he's just regressing.

Lets say this is a hypothetical:

Knight is unhappy.
Chandler is unhappy.
Our front office doesn't think Len is our future.
They want to clear cap space.

Now I know I have mentioned I don't want this guy who is an expiring, and I imagine most people will hate this, but to give us a new vet center and young center, IF WE like this young guy and were somewhat high on him.....

And remember everyone, this is based on the hypothetical situations existing above.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=h2wzjjg

[NTB]

I think people are more disappointed in Len as a whole rather than one game. He was the fifth pick of the draft and is entering his fourth season. His averages in the preseason over four games are 8 pts, 6 rbs, 1 blk 35% fg, 61% ft, and 4 fouls in 21 minutes. If Bender or Chriss have averages like that during their fourth preseason in the NBA, people will be beyond disappointed. And put that into perspective. Bender was the fourth pick and Chriss was the eighth pick. Top ten picks are supposed to have figured it out by their fourth season. This is arguably the worst I have seen Len play since his rookie year. I do hope he turns it around though. I really mean that.

I just really cannot understand how a 7 footer can shoot 35%? I mean it almost seems like, if you make it to the pro level and are a 7 footer, you'd have to try to be that bad.

I mean, he's just regressing.

Lets say this is a hypothetical:

Knight is unhappy.
Chandler is unhappy.
Our front office doesn't think Len is our future.
They want to clear cap space.

Now I know I have mentioned I don't want this guy who is an expiring, and I imagine most people will hate this, but to give us a new vet center and young center, IF WE like this young guy and were somewhat high on him.....

And remember everyone, this is based on the hypothetical situations existing above.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=h2wzjjg

Why Papagiannis?

[bwgood77]

I think people are more disappointed in Len as a whole rather than one game. He was the fifth pick of the draft and is entering his fourth season. His averages in the preseason over four games are 8 pts, 6 rbs, 1 blk 35% fg, 61% ft, and 4 fouls in 21 minutes. If Bender or Chriss have averages like that during their fourth preseason in the NBA, people will be beyond disappointed. And put that into perspective. Bender was the fourth pick and Chriss was the eighth pick. Top ten picks are supposed to have figured it out by their fourth season. This is arguably the worst I have seen Len play since his rookie year. I do hope he turns it around though. I really mean that.

I just really cannot understand how a 7 footer can shoot 35%? I mean it almost seems like, if you make it to the pro level and are a 7 footer, you'd have to try to be that bad.

I mean, he's just regressing.

Lets say this is a hypothetical:

Knight is unhappy.
Chandler is unhappy.
Our front office doesn't think Len is our future.
They want to clear cap space.

Now I know I have mentioned I don't want this guy who is an expiring, and I imagine most people will hate this, but to give us a new vet center and young center, IF WE like this young guy and were somewhat high on him.....

And remember everyone, this is based on the hypothetical situations existing above.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=h2wzjjg

Why Papagiannis?

I don't know. The thought just popped into my head last night and I was thinking "what if the Suns had wanted him with one of their picks so they agreed to trade Bogdan, the 27th and then Knight in a later deal that included Papagiannis and that deal just hadn't gone down yet and they had to figure the salary thing out". It's a very far fetched hypothetical and just something that popped into my head, but it replaces our old and young center while getting rid of two players that might want to be traded in the process.

I mean, the Kings already also drafted Skal and WCS and have Boogie. Why ANOTHER young center? And they could just swap vets and have Chandler be the vet Skal and WCS learn from. They would be getting more value while we would be clearing cap space and trying out a young, cheap, possible future center, and a potential PG they need.

[MrMiyagi]

I just really cannot understand how a 7 footer can shoot 35%? I mean it almost seems like, if you make it to the pro level and are a 7 footer, you'd have to try to be that bad.

I mean, he's just regressing.

Lets say this is a hypothetical:

Knight is unhappy.
Chandler is unhappy.
Our front office doesn't think Len is our future.
They want to clear cap space.

Now I know I have mentioned I don't want this guy who is an expiring, and I imagine most people will hate this, but to give us a new vet center and young center, IF WE like this young guy and were somewhat high on him.....

And remember everyone, this is based on the hypothetical situations existing above.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=h2wzjjg

Why Papagiannis?

I don't know. The thought just popped into my head last night and I was thinking "what if the Suns had wanted him with one of their picks so they agreed to trade Bogdan, the 27th and then Knight in a later deal that included Papagiannis and that deal just hadn't gone down yet and they had to figure the salary thing out". It's a very far fetched hypothetical and just something that popped into my head, but it replaces our old and young center while getting rid of two players that might want to be traded in the process.

I mean, the Kings already also drafted Skal and WCS and have Boogie. Why ANOTHER young center? And they could just swap vets and have Chandler be the vet Skal and WCS learn from. They would be getting more value while we would be clearing cap space and trying out a young, cheap, possible future center.

So that would mean the total trade was Knight, Chandler and Skal (28) for Chriss (8), Papagiannis(13), Gay, and Kufos? Kings management aren't the brightest bulbs, but that seems backwards even for them.

[bwgood77]

So that would mean the total trade was Knight, Chandler and Skal (28) for Chriss (8), Papagiannis(13), Gay, and Kufos? Kings management aren't the brightest bulbs, but that seems backwards even for them.

So since the first trade is done, do you really think WE win the second trade? Gay has said he is leaving, so basically they are getting Knight and Chandler for Papa and Koufos. That doesn't seem to be a lot for us, but at least it's a cheaper vet and a cheaper younger 1st contract guy. Then we could see how Len does this year and how Papa progresses with our other young guys.

[NTB]

Do you know Papagiannis' dad right? I wouldn't put him in the same team with Bender.

[bwgood77]

Do you know Papagiannis' dad right? I wouldn't put him in the same team with Bender.

I saw tweets where he thinks he's better. Is there more to it than that?

[NTB]

Do you know Papagiannis' dad right? I wouldn't put him in the same team with Bender.

I saw tweets where he thinks he's better. Is there more to it than that?

I think he was also insulting Bender with those tweets.

[Maystack]

Read on Twitter

[GMATCallahan]

I just really cannot understand how a 7 footer can shoot 35%? I mean it almost seems like, if you make it to the pro level and are a 7 footer, you'd have to try to be that bad.

I mean, he's just regressing.

Lets say this is a hypothetical:

Knight is unhappy.
Chandler is unhappy.
Our front office doesn't think Len is our future.
They want to clear cap space.

Now I know I have mentioned I don't want this guy who is an expiring, and I imagine most people will hate this, but to give us a new vet center and young center, IF WE like this young guy and were somewhat high on him.....

And remember everyone, this is based on the hypothetical situations existing above.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=h2wzjjg

Len also shot .398 from the field over his final 35 games last season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lenal01/gamelog/2016#155-189-sum:pgl_basic

The Suns have been trying to develop him as a post player, but he is very limited or erratic in that regard. He seems unable to control his gangly nature, and his post-up moves and hook shots tend to be out of control. In the fourth quarter last night, Len was more under control when he received the ball in the mid-post area and simply stepped back to shoot a simple mid-range jumper, much as Karl Malone used to do.

Len needs to keep matters simple. He also needs to improve his strength to the point where he can establish his base and thus keep his moves under control. Otherwise, he often appears to be flailing at the basket in the course of his moves and he cannot control his shots, like someone attempting a still shot with a handheld camera. Once in a while, his combination of length and athleticism allows Len to deliver a spectacular dunk in someone's face off some sort of drop step with the ball or reverse spin without it, but the pertinent phrase there is "once in a while."

Without these improvements, Phoenix will need to move away from him as a post-up option. In that case, the key will be the consistency of his outside jumper in pick-and-pop situations and the effectiveness of his defense. Len has shown that he can rebound at this level, but everything else basically remains a question.

Keep in mind, though, that back in the day, Andrew Lang and Tim Perry became quality starters for Phoenix—in their fourth seasons, and after playing four years of college.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199204260PHO.html

Now you have guys trying to reach that level, in that time frame, after zero, one, or two years of college.

Of course, as I have mentioned before, Lang and Perry (and Mark West, among others) were helped by being able to play with a number of high-quality passers: Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, and especially Kevin Johnson. Ulis helps the Suns' current guard unit in that regard, and Booker shows some ability as well, but most of Phoenix's guards are not in the NBA for their passing ability.

[GMATCallahan]

Len played HORRIBLE yesterday, I do not care what the +/- said or the highlights... I saw the complete game (and it was tough) and he was terrible on both sides of the floor.

In the second half he was better against Dawson and he made his free throws. But overall a really bad game.

I think that Len is a decent C and he is gonna play better in the future...hopefully this season.

+/- is a totally unreliable measure for small samples, especially any given game. Even in large samples, it is not that reliable, which is why "Adjusted Plus-Minus," while imperfect, is much better.

[GMATCallahan]

Unbelievable play by Goodwin. Idk many players in the NBA that are capable of doing what he did. That was ridiculous.

Westbrook..... maybe Lavine.

... a younger Dwyane Wade, certainly.

[GMATCallahan]

If I see anybody flip the script on Archie I'm calling you out. 90% of this board said he wouldn't make the roster or shouldn't and should be waived. Shot broken shown, zero development, not good locker room presence I've heard it all from a lot of people on this board.

Troy Williams, Kyle Kuric oh I remember real well

... the truth is that Goodwin was not playing very well before that final minute: often out of control on offense, slow to react on defense, and so forth.

He ultimately stepped up, though.

... not that it is likely to mean much, if anything, in the long run.

[GMATCallahan]

Well, I do agree Goodwin looked good tonight. In any case, nice to see you post on the Suns forum. Only seen you on the NFL forum lately.

He looked good in the last minute. I actually thought that he was not looking too good before that ...

Realistically, if Goodwin even makes the final roster, his role will probably be that of injury insurance.

[letsgosuns]

I do not think there is any reason to cut Goodwin. He has way too much talent to be someone you flat out just cut from your team. Either keep him or trade him.

[dremill24]

Everybody would be much happier (or at least less outward hate) with Len if they'd just stop feeding him for iso post-ups

[lilfishi22]

My main beef with Len is: why in the hell he settles for fancy scores that he clearly cant manage to make?
Maybe he's trying to play up to his top5 pick potential but there's no need for him to even try it.

Just work in the PNR, dive hard for Oreb, cash-in some easy ones and maybe hit a wide open mid range shot.
That's it.

Rebound, box out, protect the paint, rotate well enough to help off others and settle good screens.

Because he knows he's got nothing to offer on the inside so he settles for the "open" midrange J instead. Granted he played against a legit post defender yesterday but his post moves were downright ugly. One of his sky hooks bricked so hard off the backboard, you'd think it was a shot from half court. Honestly, I don't even trust the guy to be in the PnR. Offense just doesn't come natural to him and I think that might be a reality he'll accept in due time. His defense has promise though and he should be focusing on that as much as possible.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

I had seen Luke Winn's tweet, but couldn't find one anti Bender comment. It was more like "My kid is just as good or better" which you can understand a father saying.

I mean is there anything substantial that the father said that would create any real animosity?

Probably not worth talking about too much because that trade was far fetched, though probably more realistic than many posted.

I think Koufos is a solid center too.