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Dragan Bender News, Discussion and Highlights

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Would you bring back Bender?

No
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Yes, let Monty work with him
40
62%
 
Total votes: 65

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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#81 » by Thespianoid » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:46 pm

Zelaznyrules wrote:
Thespianoid wrote:Yeah I hope so. Maybe they will do that eventually, I guess I would just be doing it earlier :lol:


Did you miss his first few games? I ask because they weren't just parking him in the corner originally. I think it was clear the game was a little too fast and a little too physical for him initially and when the shots didn't fall he lost his confidence pretty quickly. I'm sure they'll expand his role as time goes on but this isn't just about developing Bender, it's about developing a team too. He's not the only raw player on this squad, unfortunately. And even some of our more experienced players such as Bledsoe and Knight still have a lot of learning to do.


First few games in Summer League or preseason?

In SL you are fully correct, they didn't park him in the corner to begin with and he struggled a bit with the speed of the game/defense when it came to playmaking/passing and no doubt his confidence took a hit missing those crucial free throws. Biggest issue I remember from that time was that he tended to settle for 3's whenever he could, and unfortunately that still hasn't changed. I think that was a good learning experience, but maybe some more targeted direction on shot selection and smarter usage would be the things to take away. Because how will you expect a young player to adapt themselves to the speed of the game and defense unless you teach them a concept and then let them experience those moments repeatedly in game situations?

Maybe the coaching staff has been warranted in reducing his overall usage a bit (probably not 21% USG like in SL), and I would have no quarrel with that approach, but I definitely disagree with the areas on the floor/how the coaches have decided he's to be used thus far. With a young player, my opinion is that the best thing you can do for them is give them repeated, consistent experience in the areas they will be expected to/relied on to produce. So that they develop a comfort level, expand from, and eventually excel with a role that's consistent with their natural instincts and playstyle.

Simply put, I don't believe giving him a majority of his early minutes at the 3, parked in the corner, and rarely involved in the offense, is a good starting point. Sure, he does have to get used to the NBA 3PT line and has to gain AT MOST 15 pounds from his listed weight of 225 at 7'1". But by limiting him to one area, you're missing out on the potential production from the most prominent talent of a prospect. Like I'd mentioned before, imagine the Magic/Sixers limiting Aaron Gordon/Ben Simmons to simply improving their outside shooting instead of capitalizing on their passing ability concurrent with giving them game reps to improve their shooting consistency.

The organization is trying to develop a team, you're correct. There are a lot of pieces and situations to juggle and balance and it will be a difficult endeavor to find the best for everyone. But, I'd also assume that given the team's rebuilding status and it's prime new investments in their latest 4th and 8th picks, that they'd do a better job understanding Bender's natural game and tailoring his involvement/development to maximize his production and value.

Maybe this is all a fundamental disagreement between myself and the Suns coaching staff on his perceived abilities. After all, they've had tons more experience with seeing him in person and day-to-day in practice. However I think I've seen enough of him through the years to understand that his best overall talent is his instinctual playmaking/passing talent for a player of his mold, and thus far that's being completely suppressed in his young Suns career.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#82 » by kennydorglas » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:45 pm

Thespianoid wrote:
Zelaznyrules wrote:
Thespianoid wrote:Yeah I hope so. Maybe they will do that eventually, I guess I would just be doing it earlier :lol:


Did you miss his first few games? I ask because they weren't just parking him in the corner originally. I think it was clear the game was a little too fast and a little too physical for him initially and when the shots didn't fall he lost his confidence pretty quickly. I'm sure they'll expand his role as time goes on but this isn't just about developing Bender, it's about developing a team too. He's not the only raw player on this squad, unfortunately. And even some of our more experienced players such as Bledsoe and Knight still have a lot of learning to do.


First few games in Summer League or preseason?

In SL you are fully correct, they didn't park him in the corner to begin with and he struggled a bit with the speed of the game/defense when it came to playmaking/passing and no doubt his confidence took a hit missing those crucial free throws. Biggest issue I remember from that time was that he tended to settle for 3's whenever he could, and unfortunately that still hasn't changed. I think that was a good learning experience, but maybe some more targeted direction on shot selection and smarter usage would be the things to take away. Because how will you expect a young player to adapt themselves to the speed of the game and defense unless you teach them a concept and then let them experience those moments repeatedly in game situations?

Maybe the coaching staff has been warranted in reducing his overall usage a bit (probably not 21% USG like in SL), and I would have no quarrel with that approach, but I definitely disagree with the areas on the floor/how the coaches have decided he's to be used thus far. With a young player, my opinion is that the best thing you can do for them is give them repeated, consistent experience in the areas they will be expected to/relied on to produce. So that they develop a comfort level, expand from, and eventually excel with a role that's consistent with their natural instincts and playstyle.

Simply put, I don't believe giving him a majority of his early minutes at the 3, parked in the corner, and rarely involved in the offense, is a good starting point. Sure, he does have to get used to the NBA 3PT line and has to gain AT MOST 15 pounds from his listed weight of 225 at 7'1". But by limiting him to one area, you're missing out on the potential production from the most prominent talent of a prospect. Like I'd mentioned before, imagine the Magic/Sixers limiting Aaron Gordon/Ben Simmons to simply improving their outside shooting instead of capitalizing on their passing ability concurrent with giving them game reps to improve their shooting consistency.

The organization is trying to develop a team, you're correct. There are a lot of pieces and situations to juggle and balance and it will be a difficult endeavor to find the best for everyone. But, I'd also assume that given the team's rebuilding status and it's prime new investments in their latest 4th and 8th picks, that they'd do a better job understanding Bender's natural game and tailoring his involvement/development to maximize his production and value.

Maybe this is all a fundamental disagreement between myself and the Suns coaching staff on his perceived abilities. After all, they've had tons more experience with seeing him in person and day-to-day in practice. However I think I've seen enough of him through the years to understand that his best overall talent is his instinctual playmaking/passing talent for a player of his mold, and thus far that's being completely suppressed in his young Suns career.


Settling for 3's might be on Watson... he already told Bender to launch at least SIX threes per game in preseason
My best guess is they're trying to adapt him to NBA 3 point range as soon as possible because they already know what he can do as a playmaker/facilitator.

If they keep playing him like that later in the season or in D-League, I'll be mad.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#83 » by Veggamattic » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:43 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:He's 18. Everyone kept saying "He competed against grown men! Much more prepared than college prospects!" but he's young and he's thin. He'll get there eventually. He's got great tools and we're not looking to rush him. So, how about not rushing judgment?


I think watching him play big minutes in 7-8 games is no rush. I try and keep a running tally in my head of all the good things players do and all the bad things and the scale has been painfully lopsided. I know fan boys don't like to think this way and always try and stay positive in a mist of cognitive dissonance but I am a realist, even though I would be surprised if I haven't been a fan longer than most people on this forum. So far he stinks. He never looks ready when the ball comes to him. He commits bad turnovers and stupid fouls and his shooting has been terrible. He might eventually mature into something great but right now he has disappointed me.


Most of us knew he wasn't going to be great immediately and being the youngest guy in the league, adapting to a game with new rules, court, 3 pt line, etc, would take time. We are patient with him. At least most of us.

I'm not sure what your interest is in this or if you are just stopping by to say he sucks or what. We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks and both, to me, have impressed me more than I expected.

If you are just going to keep posting telling us how terrible he is at 18, then there probably isn't any reason for you to post here.


How about you stop telling me what I can post and what I can't. Who do you think you are? I have been a Suns fan since 1976. I am not interested in being part of a circle jerk for those who need a censored reality. I thought he was going to be a much stronger player than Chriss in his first year and I am very disappointed in almost everything I've seen from him. Especially from an in game engagement factor...he looks very lost an unprepared for a guy who has been involved in pro ball for a few years...and he can't shoot at all.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#84 » by Veggamattic » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:52 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:He's 18. Everyone kept saying "He competed against grown men! Much more prepared than college prospects!" but he's young and he's thin. He'll get there eventually. He's got great tools and we're not looking to rush him. So, how about not rushing judgment?


I think watching him play big minutes in 7-8 games is no rush. I try and keep a running tally in my head of all the good things players do and all the bad things and the scale has been painfully lopsided. I know fan boys don't like to think this way and always try and stay positive in a mist of cognitive dissonance but I am a realist, even though I would be surprised if I haven't been a fan longer than most people on this forum. So far he stinks. He never looks ready when the ball comes to him. He commits bad turnovers and stupid fouls and his shooting has been terrible. He might eventually mature into something great but right now he has disappointed me.

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I didn't expect my post to be popular but I did expect that since I wasn't bashing him and I was comparing my expectations of him with Chriss that people would refrain from acting like I was a troll. Posting cheesy memes doesn't change the fact that I was totally correct about my assessment of your behavior. If you are watching Bender play and think are saying you aren't disappointed at what you've seen so far...you are either not very good at assessing basketball talent or in denial. He has stunk up the gym. I don't care how old he is...it is still possible not to stink at this age (see Booker) and I am disappointed that he hasn't looked better.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#85 » by Veggamattic » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:55 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:He's 18. Everyone kept saying "He competed against grown men! Much more prepared than college prospects!" but he's young and he's thin. He'll get there eventually. He's got great tools and we're not looking to rush him. So, how about not rushing judgment?


I think watching him play big minutes in 7-8 games is no rush. I try and keep a running tally in my head of all the good things players do and all the bad things and the scale has been painfully lopsided. I know fan boys don't like to think this way and always try and stay positive in a mist of cognitive dissonance but I am a realist, even though I would be surprised if I haven't been a fan longer than most people on this forum. So far he stinks. He never looks ready when the ball comes to him. He commits bad turnovers and stupid fouls and his shooting has been terrible. He might eventually mature into something great but right now he has disappointed me.


Most of us knew he wasn't going to be great immediately and being the youngest guy in the league, adapting to a game with new rules, court, 3 pt line, etc, would take time. We are patient with him. At least most of us.

I'm not sure what your interest is in this or if you are just stopping by to say he sucks or what. We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks and both, to me, have impressed me more than I expected.

If you are just going to keep posting telling us how terrible he is at 18, then there probably isn't any reason for you to post here.


and... I don't agree "We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks" Chriss looked like this to me...Bender always seemed to be more of a risk free choice. Just because you are young doesn't automatically put you in this category.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#86 » by bwgood77 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:57 pm

Veggamattic wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
I think watching him play big minutes in 7-8 games is no rush. I try and keep a running tally in my head of all the good things players do and all the bad things and the scale has been painfully lopsided. I know fan boys don't like to think this way and always try and stay positive in a mist of cognitive dissonance but I am a realist, even though I would be surprised if I haven't been a fan longer than most people on this forum. So far he stinks. He never looks ready when the ball comes to him. He commits bad turnovers and stupid fouls and his shooting has been terrible. He might eventually mature into something great but right now he has disappointed me.


Most of us knew he wasn't going to be great immediately and being the youngest guy in the league, adapting to a game with new rules, court, 3 pt line, etc, would take time. We are patient with him. At least most of us.

I'm not sure what your interest is in this or if you are just stopping by to say he sucks or what. We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks and both, to me, have impressed me more than I expected.

If you are just going to keep posting telling us how terrible he is at 18, then there probably isn't any reason for you to post here.


How about you stop telling me what I can post and what I can't. Who do you think you are? I have been a Suns fan since 1976. I am not interested in being part of a circle jerk for those who need a censored reality. I thought he was going to be a much stronger player than Chriss in his first year and I am very disappointed in almost everything I've seen from him. Especially from an in game engagement factor...he looks very lost an unprepared for a guy who has been involved in pro ball for a few years...and he can't shoot at all.


Well it appears you are a Toronto fan by your list of favorite teams. Your expectations were simply flawed if you thought he was going to be a great player being the youngest guy in the NBA adapting to a new different game with different rules while living in a different country. He's just raw and didn't get nearly as much playing time as any of the college guys last year.

Sure you can say he sucks but you appear as if you are trolling because you have Toronto listed as your favorite team while coming over to this forum to tell us our young rookie sucks. How many favorite teams do you have?
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#87 » by carey » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:58 pm

I guess I'm not good at evaluating talent because I see a guy that hasn't put the ball in the hoop well yet has done some pretty amazing things with the ball in his hands on the perimeter, played great defense and been up & down the court like a demon. His shot is not broken and flat like Goodwin's is so I know it will come around. I have every faith that next year you will look back on your post and shake your head.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#88 » by bwgood77 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:59 pm

Veggamattic wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
I think watching him play big minutes in 7-8 games is no rush. I try and keep a running tally in my head of all the good things players do and all the bad things and the scale has been painfully lopsided. I know fan boys don't like to think this way and always try and stay positive in a mist of cognitive dissonance but I am a realist, even though I would be surprised if I haven't been a fan longer than most people on this forum. So far he stinks. He never looks ready when the ball comes to him. He commits bad turnovers and stupid fouls and his shooting has been terrible. He might eventually mature into something great but right now he has disappointed me.


Most of us knew he wasn't going to be great immediately and being the youngest guy in the league, adapting to a game with new rules, court, 3 pt line, etc, would take time. We are patient with him. At least most of us.

I'm not sure what your interest is in this or if you are just stopping by to say he sucks or what. We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks and both, to me, have impressed me more than I expected.

If you are just going to keep posting telling us how terrible he is at 18, then there probably isn't any reason for you to post here.


and... I don't agree "We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks" Chriss looked like this to me...Bender always seemed to be more of a risk free choice. Just because you are young doesn't automatically put you in this category.


I'm not sure how you could have though Bender was a risk free choice. It seemed pretty like a pretty widespread standard belief that he was probably boom or bust as plenty of highly touted foreign players never adapt well to the nba.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#89 » by Zelaznyrules » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:07 pm

carey wrote:I guess I'm not good at evaluating talent because I see a guy that hasn't put the ball in the hoop well yet has done some pretty amazing things with the ball in his hands on the perimeter, played great defense and been up & down the court like a demon. His shot is not broken and flat like Goodwin's is so I know it will come around. I have every faith that next year you will look back on your post and shake your head.


I'm not sure that someone who waltzes into a forum and starts calling his detractors "fanboys" is capable of honest self examination?
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#90 » by dremill24 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:08 pm

Yeah, (proverbial) you can have whatever assessment of his play so far, but he's always been a huge risk.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#91 » by Saberestar » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:18 pm

IMO Bender has played worse than I was expecting, but that is why I had big expectations about him. He has played well enough considering his age and all the other stuff.

I have seen enough flashes in his game, so I am not concerned at all. I think he can be a terrific all around player in the next few years like Odom, Kirilenko or Diaw.

We have to stay in wait-and-see mode for a few years with him.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#92 » by kennydorglas » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:33 pm

Never forget that pretty much all Booker's shots in summer league/preseason were short.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#93 » by Veggamattic » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:49 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Most of us knew he wasn't going to be great immediately and being the youngest guy in the league, adapting to a game with new rules, court, 3 pt line, etc, would take time. We are patient with him. At least most of us.

I'm not sure what your interest is in this or if you are just stopping by to say he sucks or what. We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks and both, to me, have impressed me more than I expected.

If you are just going to keep posting telling us how terrible he is at 18, then there probably isn't any reason for you to post here.


How about you stop telling me what I can post and what I can't. Who do you think you are? I have been a Suns fan since 1976. I am not interested in being part of a circle jerk for those who need a censored reality. I thought he was going to be a much stronger player than Chriss in his first year and I am very disappointed in almost everything I've seen from him. Especially from an in game engagement factor...he looks very lost an unprepared for a guy who has been involved in pro ball for a few years...and he can't shoot at all.


Well it appears you are a Toronto fan by your list of favorite teams. Your expectations were simply flawed if you thought he was going to be a great player being the youngest guy in the NBA adapting to a new different game with different rules while living in a different country. He's just raw and didn't get nearly as much playing time as any of the college guys last year.

Sure you can say he sucks but you appear as if you are trolling because you have Toronto listed as your favorite team while coming over to this forum to tell us our young rookie sucks. How many favorite teams do you have?


Do the math...I was watching basketball since '76 and The Raptors didn't even exist until '95 when I was living in Toronto. I also did not say anything about him being "great". I compared him to Chriss. Your logic is flawed not mine.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#94 » by Veggamattic » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:52 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Most of us knew he wasn't going to be great immediately and being the youngest guy in the league, adapting to a game with new rules, court, 3 pt line, etc, would take time. We are patient with him. At least most of us.

I'm not sure what your interest is in this or if you are just stopping by to say he sucks or what. We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks and both, to me, have impressed me more than I expected.

If you are just going to keep posting telling us how terrible he is at 18, then there probably isn't any reason for you to post here.


and... I don't agree "We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks" Chriss looked like this to me...Bender always seemed to be more of a risk free choice. Just because you are young doesn't automatically put you in this category.


I'm not sure how you could have though Bender was a risk free choice. It seemed pretty like a pretty widespread standard belief that he was probably boom or bust as plenty of highly touted foreign players never adapt well to the nba.


So being foreign was your metric. I looked at a few more factors than that.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#95 » by Veggamattic » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:54 pm

Zelaznyrules wrote:
carey wrote:I guess I'm not good at evaluating talent because I see a guy that hasn't put the ball in the hoop well yet has done some pretty amazing things with the ball in his hands on the perimeter, played great defense and been up & down the court like a demon. His shot is not broken and flat like Goodwin's is so I know it will come around. I have every faith that next year you will look back on your post and shake your head.


I'm not sure that someone who waltzes into a forum and starts calling his detractors "fanboys" is capable of honest self examination?


What do those 2 things have to do with each other. The last thing on earth I am not capable of is self examination. I do it way way more than I (or anyone else ) should ever do.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#96 » by bwgood77 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:35 pm

Veggamattic wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
and... I don't agree "We all realized Bender and Chriss both were boom/bust picks" Chriss looked like this to me...Bender always seemed to be more of a risk free choice. Just because you are young doesn't automatically put you in this category.


I'm not sure how you could have though Bender was a risk free choice. It seemed pretty like a pretty widespread standard belief that he was probably boom or bust as plenty of highly touted foreign players never adapt well to the nba.


So being foreign was your metric. I looked at a few more factors than that.


Not my only one. I studied him quite a bit though, being only a Suns fan and hoping we drafted him. I was high on him and am still high on him. He's much better at some things than I thought he was. His scoring hasn't quite been there, but that's partially because of the role the coach has currently placed him in.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#97 » by Dirk » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:50 pm

Veggamattic wrote:
Zelaznyrules wrote:
carey wrote:I guess I'm not good at evaluating talent because I see a guy that hasn't put the ball in the hoop well yet has done some pretty amazing things with the ball in his hands on the perimeter, played great defense and been up & down the court like a demon. His shot is not broken and flat like Goodwin's is so I know it will come around. I have every faith that next year you will look back on your post and shake your head.


I'm not sure that someone who waltzes into a forum and starts calling his detractors "fanboys" is capable of honest self examination?


What do those 2 things have to do with each other. The last thing on earth I am not capable of is self examination. I do it way way more than I (or anyone else ) should ever do.


You come to a Phoenix Suns fan board and call others who don't agree with you "fan boys". That is baiting. It doesn't take any self examination to understand that it is not an acceptable way of arguing - it's just common sense.

The irony in all of this is that, while your opinion is valid, you're commenting based on an extremely frail sample. Pre-season games from an 18 year old rookie. It's more than normal that everyone will be saying "he is only 18" - it doesn't take being a fan boy to say such things. It doesn't take being a Suns fan even - it's just common sense.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#98 » by MrMiyagi » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:25 pm

Veggamattic wrote:
I didn't expect my post to be popular but I did expect that since I wasn't bashing him and I was comparing my expectations of him with Chriss that people would refrain from acting like I was a troll. Posting cheesy memes doesn't change the fact that I was totally correct about my assessment of your behavior. If you are watching Bender play and think are saying you aren't disappointed at what you've seen so far...you are either not very good at assessing basketball talent or in denial. He has stunk up the gym. I don't care how old he is...it is still possible not to stink at this age (see Booker) and I am disappointed that he hasn't looked better.

I've never said he's been amazing. I've said I think he moves incredibly well for his size, especially on defense, and he has a nice stroke from three. I've never said he's going to be the GOAT or even an all-star, but that he's an 18 year old kid and I'm going to reserve my judgment for a few seasons. All I asked of you was patience and you've responded with vitriol. I have next to no expectations for what kind of player Bender should be, but it seems like you did and now that he hasn't met those expectations, you're disappointed. Maybe you need to assess your own expectations rather than being angry that no one here agrees with the assessment that he "stinks" because we aren't expecting him to be amazing right now.
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#99 » by Thespianoid » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:27 pm

Dirk Nowitzki wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
Zelaznyrules wrote:
I'm not sure that someone who waltzes into a forum and starts calling his detractors "fanboys" is capable of honest self examination?


What do those 2 things have to do with each other. The last thing on earth I am not capable of is self examination. I do it way way more than I (or anyone else ) should ever do.


You come to a Phoenix Suns fan board and call others who don't agree with you "fan boys". That is baiting. It doesn't take any self examination to understand that it is not an acceptable way of arguing - it's just common sense.

The irony in all of this is that, while your opinion is valid, you're commenting based on an extremely frail sample. Pre-season games from an 18 year old rookie. It's more than normal that everyone will be saying "he is only 18" - it doesn't take being a fan boy to say such things. It doesn't take being a Suns fan even - it's just common sense.


sup Dirk, nice to see you on a board outside of the Raptors' :lol:
Clementine9 wrote:Missed shots are unfortunate, but it's the trends throughout the game that matter.

Choker wrote:The swing in how Raptors fans have supported and turned on Powell is a good case study of human behavior.
Dirk
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Re: Dragan Bender News and Thoughts 

Post#100 » by Dirk » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Thespianoid wrote:
Dirk Nowitzki wrote:
Veggamattic wrote:
What do those 2 things have to do with each other. The last thing on earth I am not capable of is self examination. I do it way way more than I (or anyone else ) should ever do.


You come to a Phoenix Suns fan board and call others who don't agree with you "fan boys". That is baiting. It doesn't take any self examination to understand that it is not an acceptable way of arguing - it's just common sense.

The irony in all of this is that, while your opinion is valid, you're commenting based on an extremely frail sample. Pre-season games from an 18 year old rookie. It's more than normal that everyone will be saying "he is only 18" - it doesn't take being a fan boy to say such things. It doesn't take being a Suns fan even - it's just common sense.


sup Dirk, nice to see you on a board outside of the Raptors' :lol:


I see you've given up on JV and are looking to find a new favorite player.

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