Can Jimmy Be = or > Than Pippen?

[RedBulls23]

I still think, like Toni, he was overrated by many Bulls fans who talk about him like a true legend, all time elite guy. Just since Pippens' prime, here are the SFs who have compared roughly equal or perhaps better than Pippen ever was:

Grant Hill
TMac
Lebron
Durant
Pierce
Melo?
Kobe? (could have played SF better than Pippen and in many ways did play "SF")
Vince Carter?

That's just in recent years since Scottie was done.

I think Pippen ranks up specialty points for proving to be one of (if not 'the') best #2 player ever. Others may have been better #1s (say Tmac) but if they were not great enough #1s to routinely lead their team to the Finals, that's more of a moot point.

Many of the type of players mentioned also had the talents to be great #2s I'm sure, but because of defense particularly, and Pippen's unique ability to accept being a #2 in terms of mentality, doubtful most would have done it as well as he did.

To the OP, no Butler has little chance to ever be as good as Pippen, he's certainly not right now.

In TMac's case he couldn't even get a team out of the 1st round, and he had Yao a couple of seasons.

If Pip had more of a chance to be the man on his own team in his prime, I think you would have seen him take teams to ECF or two at least. Hell, he was 1 bad call away from doing that.

[CjayC]

Pip had MJ to push him to be better...Butler had Rose's brother.

[Stratmaster]

Yes, I love Pippen but I do think Bulls fans overrate him and Kukoc.

Jimmy can never be Pip on D, no. He could in theory become a better scorer if he's not already, but I doubt Jimmy has much improvement left.

Pippen is rated as one of the greatest of all-time by basketball scholars and experts. This board does not voerrate him, if anything this board underrates him.

Jimmy is not even in the same league. Pippen was a better ball handler, better passer, better defender, and more dominant scorer (he was never the go-to guy or his scoring stats would reflect that as well). There isn't a single thing Butler is better at than Pippen was.

Experts regard Pippen is one of the greatest what? One of the greatest 50 players ever? Sure at the time that the list was made which was a very long time ago. I don't consider that to be one of the greatest of all-time quote.

I don't think Jimmy can be as good as Pippen but it's only because of defense. Jimmy is already as good of a scorer as Pippen ever was if you look at pp36 and TS%. Better frankly. And Pippen did vet at least a year or two of being the #1 guy. He put up scoring numbers no better or worse than Butler, who has never been able to be the #1 guy.

Additionally, Butler had far more scoring depth talent around him. Dynasty Bulls had next to no scoring talent beyond MJ, Scottie, Toni and to a much lesser extent BJ, Kerr, Grant etc.

I agree on the overall, the defense, the passing and ball handling. But scoring is a huge component to the game.

I'm sorry but your argument is circular. Pippen was playing the point most of his career on offense, and deferring to Jordan which reduced his shot attempts. Pippen averaged between 12 and 16 shots per game with the Bulls, other than the year Jordan was gone, where that jumped to 18. butler has averaged about 14 shots per gamer the last two seasons.

Pippen was absolutely more dominating offensively. He could post up better than Butler. He could attack the rim better than Butler. He was a better overall shooter, and an equal 3 point shooter to Butler.He played in a time when to get a foul called driving the basket you pretty much had to get knocked on your ass and still averaged about 4 FT's per game (and almost 6 when he was the "go-to guy for 1 year). He was a better rebounder than Butler. He was the best of all-time at his position defensively.

ESPN just (this year) ranked Pippen the 6th best SF of all time, behind only 1. LBJ 2. Bird 3. Dr. J 4. Durant 5. Elgin Baylor. You think Butler will ever be mentioned in that crowd?

I have to ask, did you watch Scottei Pippen play during the 8 years of the dynasty? I don't mean a few highlights. If you watched the team consistently like you have Butler, I really can't imagine we would even be having this debate. It's not even close.

[Stratmaster]

Pippen is rated as one of the greatest of all-time by basketball scholars and experts. This board does not voerrate him, if anything this board underrates him.

Jimmy is not even in the same league. Pippen was a better ball handler, better passer, better defender, and more dominant scorer (he was never the go-to guy or his scoring stats would reflect that as well). There isn't a single thing Butler is better at than Pippen was.

Well said. The part in bold pretty much wraps up the comparison. Might be better to pose this question after Jimmy's prime when comparing him to a Prime Pippen

For our sake, i HOPE he does approach Pippen's talents

Jimmy may only be better than drawing fouls lol

Nope, not even that. Pippen played at a time when to get a foul called driving the lane you had to get knocked on your ass...and in the one season Pip was the main scoring threat he averaged almost 6 FTA per game.

[Stratmaster]

It's not the most scientific method, League, but I did a quick google for top ten NBA small forwards and every list I saw had Pippen in the five except ESPN, who had him 6th.

Regardless of your view, he's accepted widely as a historically elite player.

Sure I'll accept that he's a top 5 - 10 SF ever for sure. But SF isn't an elite position, historically. Would anyone disagree, for example, that there may be 10-25 centers you'd take over Scottie?

Does anyone think Scottie was capable of being the best player on a championship team? I'm not sure he was. Just simply wasn't a great scorer. Just a very good scorer.

He was, however, as good of a defender and as well rounded of a player as we've ever seen I think. Hard to rate a guy like that. Similar in many ways to KG.

For example, Barkley was probably good enough to be the best player on a title team. Pippen may not have been IMO. (Butler isn't either). But it's pretty easy for me to say that Pippen was Barklety's equal or better than Barkley, just because of how well rounded he was.

But, the name of the game is titles, and IMO, a guy who probably wasn't good enough to lead a team to a title isn't a historically elite player at the end of the day.

In the only year he was ever given the opportiunity, Pippen was the best player on a team that got within one game of the championship series...with that same "weak scoring talent" around him that you mentioned in your early post. Even MJ had multiple seasons with the Bulls where the team was nowhere near a contender.

[Stratmaster]

Pippen did get a team to the ECF.

I think he was capable of being "The Guy" he just never was so people assume he couldn't.

What would lead you to believe he was capable of that?

Was he not the guy in 1993-94 and for most of 94-95?

Derrick Rose got a team to the ECF too. Dwight Howard and AI got teams to the finals.

He was the guy for 93-94. Did you watch the playoffs the next season with Jordan back being the alpha while playing at 50%? Do you remember the horrible turnover MJ made to cost them a game?

Rose would likely have ended up being considered an elite historical player had he stayed healthy and continued his play level from his first two seasons.

You say it's all about titles. Pippen has 6 rings from his 11 seasons in Chicago.. How many does Butler have? Butler will need tog et one every season for the next 6 to match that.

[Stratmaster]

What would lead you to believe he was capable of that?

Was he not the guy in 1993-94 and for most of 94-95?

Derrick Rose got a team to the ECF too. Dwight Howard and AI got teams to the finals.

And all 3 of them were HOF caliber in the year that they did it...

Sure, Pippen is a legit HOFer too.

I still think, like Toni, he was overrated by many Bulls fans who talk about him like a true legend, all time elite guy. Just since Pippens' prime, here are the SFs who have compared roughly equal or perhaps better than Pippen ever was:

Grant Hill
TMac
Lebron
Durant
Pierce
Melo?
Kobe? (could have played SF better than Pippen and in many ways did play "SF")
Vince Carter?

That's just in recent years since Scottie was done.

That is the most ridiculous list I have ever seen. Only LBJ and Durant belong. The others aren't are even close...other than of course, you slipping in one of the top 5 players of all time who doesn't even play the position.

TMac? that is hilarious.Pierce?

I have to assume at this point you just never really saw Pippen play much.

[Stratmaster]

Pip was UNDERRATED
Great rebounder. Great passer. Excellent with the ball in his hands. Defense? DAMN

Grant hill? No
TMac? No
Lebron? Heck yeah, but he's lebron
Durant? Sure looks that way...would like to see some titles
Pierce? No way
Melo? No way
Kobe? Different kind of guy but I have always felt Kobe was highly overrated
Vince? Nope

Basketball is a team sport. Pip was almost the perfect team player. Plus he was freakin' good.

Agree except at this point in their careers I would take Pippen over Durant. Durant is fairly one dimensional compared to Pippen and hasn't won anything to date nor been very clutch in the playoffs.

Lebron is the only guy on the list better. Pippen was devastating at everything he did except volume scoring, and his two seasons without MJ in between the 3peats were pretty effective. I don't think there's any argument he isn't the top perimeter defender ever. There probably wasn't a better fit to partner with MJ, and that's why they won six titles in eight years.

Kobe is not an SF. Might as well include Jordan in the list if one includes Kobe...

IMO its laughable to say KD is one dimensional. He's a very solid defender. Pippen wasn't just a scorer without real big volume, he also wasn't any more efficient than an average player.

Lots of people think MJ was every bit as good as Pippen on D. Some very close to the title teams think MJ was better. Pippen did often get the toucher assignment though.

Pippen wasn't devastating at anything other than defense. Which is admittedly half the game and is why he is a great great player. Not a devastating playmaker, rebounder or scorer.

Durant hasn't won "anything"? He took his team further than Pippen did.

MJ played SF too in this league, and he played it better than Pippen did. I didn't include him, or Bird, Dr J, etc cause I was talking about guys better than Pippen after Pippen.

Pippen WAS the playmaker on 6 championship teams. He was the original "Point Forward". Not sure how much more devastating you could get.

Of course MJ was almost as good as Pip on defense. You are talking about likely the 2 best defensive wings to ever play the game. You act like that is somehow a ding on Pippen.

I do believe Durant is slightly/barely better than Pippen was...but your arguments are a little one-sided. Pippen had 1 year where he was the go-to guy. How many has Durant had? Pippen has 6 rings. How many does Durant have? It's like saying Durant took his team further than Wade ever has, because Wade happened to play beside Shaq and LBJ.

[waffle]

as I stated above, Pip was better at everything than Jimmy is, and because he was a better athlete, that distinction is likely to remain. Jimmy's ceiling is lower for sure.

And for bonus points, pip was one dynamic dunker. OH MAN

[BR0D1E86]

No.

EDIT: Sure, if he becomes significantly better at every facet of the game.

[bledredwine]

Nope and it's not close. Pippen WAS a better scorer despite what people say. He didn't get as much of a chance to score next to MJ. He's also more versatile, a much better defender, etc etc. Unlike Jimmy, he was good enough to be a batman.

[samwana]

Oh man Scottie was so awesome, he had a lot more talent than Jimmy and made the most of it. His defense is something we will never see again. He could literally change a game with defense. But the biggest difference is Scottie played within the system and flourished. Jimmy right now has lots of problems playing within the offense and his game looks ugly.

Jimmy needs to be a lot better if he wants to be like Scottie.

[AKfanatic]

Pippen ain't easy

Watch on YouTube

But really though. I'm going to assume that most that believe Jimmy is close to what Pippen was as a player, were too young to watch Scottie.

As good as Jimmy has been in the past on D, he wasn't close to the defensive genius Pippen was. He's also not the playmaker Pippen was. Scottie is criminally underrated by a lot of NBA fans, sure he played with the GOAT...but the GOAT was beyond lucky to have such a talented wingman.

Edit/Add: I'll say one thing. As great as Lebron and Durant are at the SF position, neither one would enjoy being guarded by Scottie in a series.

[Chi]

In terms of just on court skills or similarities comparison.

I'd say Jimmy is to Pippen what Kobe is to Jordan...

[GimmeDat]

This is a bit OT, but is Scottie the best wing defender of all time? I can't think of anyone better.

[TOMSPY77]

The next 'Scottie' walked out the door when we let Snell Go..

[vvgotgame19]

I must say I'm a little shocked to see some of these comments. I opened this expecting to see the OP get roasted, but there's actually a debate about this. That blows my mind.

Let's just make a checklist here:

Scoring = comparable
Shooting = comparable
Playmaking = Pippen by FAR
Ball Handling = Pippen
Rebounding = Pippen
Defense = Pippen by FAR
IQ = Pippen by FAR
Intangibles = Pippen
Accomplishments = Pippen
Athleticism = Pippen

There's literally not one thing Butler has on Pip...

[spacemonkey]

The thing that Pippen is usually most underrated in is his athleticism. He was just so fluid, could jump, and was extremely quick with the ball. He's got a fantastic out-in-front dribble where he covers ground just like a gazel, and I honestly think his reflexes and reaction times are simply a tier above Butler.

I like Jimmy but he's not nearly the athlete Pippen was. The physicals just don't match up, and so even if we assume equal skill all around (which I don't think is the case), it's pretty clear Pip wins out.

[Chi]

I must say I'm a little shocked to see some of these comments. I opened this expecting to see the OP get roasted, but there's actually a debate about this. That blows my mind.

Let's just make a checklist here:

Scoring = comparable
Shooting = comparable
Playmaking = Pippen by FAR
Ball Handling = Pippen
Rebounding = Pippen
Defense = Pippen by FAR
IQ = Pippen by FAR
Intangibles = Pippen
Accomplishments = Pippen
Athleticism = Pippen

There's literally not one thing Butler has on Pip...

I haven't seen anyone debate Jimmy being better than Pippen.

Especially not me.

But at the same time, I just think Jimmy's skill set is similar enough and we all know he's literally gotten much better every single year.
I was just seeing if people thought it was remotely possible that Jimmy could reach that level or not. And what it would take for him to get there.

[Chi]

Watch on YouTube