Kobe/Garnett/Hakeem vs Lebron/Dirk/Duncan

[Matt15]

Who trio you rather start a new team with?

[Jiminy Glick]

i'm going to go with lebron/dirk/duncan

sure the dirk and duncan pf/c game isn't as good as kg and hakeem down low but I like the leadership of lebron and duncan. I think Duncan could handle Hakeem, I really would be interested to see that match up. It's just Lebron that puts it over the top for me.

[mademan]

In a 1to1 comparison, I think Lebron/Dirk/Duncan are better at every spot, and I think they fit better

[Ballerhogger]

The defensive 1st team is better n

[Texas Chuck]

The latter in one of the easiest of these of all-time. Not only are they clearly the most talented, but they fit together like a glove and have far less personality concerns.

[JordansBulls]

3 guys who took organizations that never won to a title vs one in the other group while 2 of the other guys only won for the winniest organizations in NBA History.

[-Sammy-]

I took LBJ/Dirk/Timmy, but the Hakeem/Timmy matchup could go either way. What I would give to see those two go at it in their primes.

[Domejandro]

The latter in one of the easiest of these of all-time. Not only are they clearly the most talented, but they fit together like a glove and have far less personality concerns.

LeBron James versus Kobe Bryant skews it greatly for me, LeBron James + Dirk Nowitzki pick-and-pop would be just ridiculous. Tim Duncan setting up-screens for LeBron leading into pick-and-pops with Dirk would be magnificent, Duncan would feast off of drop-off passes and post-ups with those two.

[deezerweeze]

lebrick would turn dirk into into a spot-up shooter as he did with bosh and love, which would be a complete waste of his talents, and most damning of all is that neither bosh or love saw any boost in efficiency. on the other hand, kobe fit in seamlessly with pau and they had amazing synergy from their first game together and of course pau's efficiency skyrocketed as soon as he joined la. it was really quite extraordinary. and it would be the same here with hakeem and kg. hes simply a much better fit next to other star bigs: much better off-ball, much better shooter, and much less ball-dominant. and of course the first duo is much better defensively. KG and Hakeem? yeah, easy decision.

[Texas Chuck]

lebrick would turn dirk into into a spot-up shooter as he did with bosh and love, .

I doubt it. Lebron is neither selfish not stupid. And while Love and Bosh were both nice offensive players, neither one of them are Dirk. Dirk in the high post with a live dribble would be a big part of the offense as would Lebron/Dirk PNR. Dirk would have to sacrifice a little, as would the other 2, but he wouldn't become the guy in the corner.

[Jedi32]

I'm taking the first trio without hesitation. Kobe with one great big equals 3 straight finals. Kobe with two, and it's not even a discussion imo. Plus despite the notion that Kobe was never good at defense, I believe the first trio is just to good defensively when dialed in. Plus the offense seems like it would run extra Smooth.

[dautjazz]

I'm taking the first trio without hesitation. Kobe with one great big equals 3 straight finals. Kobe with two, and it's not even a discussion imo. Plus despite the notion that Kobe was never good at defense, I believe the first trio is just to good defensively when dialed in. Plus the offense seems like it would run extra Smooth.

Lebron has been to 6 straight finals with very good players, imagine, what he can do with Dirk and Duncan?!

[Jedi32]

I'm taking the first trio without hesitation. Kobe with one great big equals 3 straight finals. Kobe with two, and it's not even a discussion imo. Plus despite the notion that Kobe was never good at defense, I believe the first trio is just to good defensively when dialed in. Plus the offense seems like it would run extra Smooth.

Lebron has been to 6 straight finals with very good players, imagine, what he can do with Dirk and Duncan?!

Can't go wrong either way, I just prefer the first trio.

[drza]

These super-team matchups are more about how the unit would perform than a series of individual talent matchups. And in general, defensive impact (particularly versatile defensive impact) is more additive than offensive impact. Said another way, there's more diminishing returns on individual offensive impact than individual defensive impact in these types of matchups. And the amount of versatility that a player has to be able to maximize his impact is key.

On Team 2, the lion share of LeBron's impact comes on offense (as the primary do-everything with the ball) with a solid defensive impact as well; Dirk's impact is almost entirely on offense (as the primary finisher and spacer off the ball); Duncan's offensive impact is large but his defensive impact is larger and can scale up. For fit purposes, the mix with the least diminishing returns would be if Duncan could focus primarily on defense as the 3rd option on offense, LeBron could focus more on defense and act primarily as the floor general/secondary scorer on offense, and Dirk could be the primary scorer on offense while contributing his usual reasonable defense.

The problem is, that mix of roles doesn't necessarily maximize the team. The offense would probably be best served with LeBron in his customary role, putting Dirk in a smaller role that he's used to (which diminishes his main mechanism of impact) and we never saw prime Duncan scale his impact almost entirely to defense while operating as more of a role player level scorer. The team is still sick, but the sum would be solidly lesser than the sum of its parts.

The same isn't true of Team 1. The offensive skillsets of these players would lend themselves to a version of the Kobe/Odom/Pau Lakers. Team 1 would be a Megatron version of that unit, with Kobe in a similar role, Hakeem in Pau's slot, and Garnett in Odom's. But on defense, we'd be looking at the best unit in league history. Garnett demonstrated that he was able to translate his impact from more-offense-than-defense to almost entirely defense while remaining at the top of the league in the impact stats. Thus, a defensive unit with KG as the focal point that has, oh, HAKEEM OLAJUWON as his lieutenant and rim protector is almost mind boggling. And since Kobe wouldn't have to carry nearly as much offensive load as Mamba did, we should see more Fro-be level defense which would be a plus on this unit. Even if Kobe focused too much on either the ball or his man, as he was wont to do when in Pitbull mode, that'd be fine because he'd have the greatest defensive safety net ever seen behind him.

Thus, I think Team 1 is pretty clearly the better unit here. They could translate their individual impact almost whole-cloth to the superteam, which makes them the squad with the solidly higher ceiling.

[Senior]

These super-team matchups are more about how the unit would perform than a series of individual talent matchups. And in general, defensive impact (particularly versatile defensive impact) is more additive than offensive impact. Said another way, there's more diminishing returns on individual offensive impact than individual defensive impact in these types of matchups. And the amount of versatility that a player has to be able to maximize his impact is key.

On Team 2, the lion share of LeBron's impact comes on offense (as the primary do-everything with the ball) with a solid defensive impact as well; Dirk's impact is almost entirely on offense (as the primary finisher and spacer off the ball); Duncan's offensive impact is large but his defensive impact is larger and can scale up. For fit purposes, the mix with the least diminishing returns would be if Duncan could focus primarily on defense as the 3rd option on offense, LeBron could focus more on defense and act primarily as the floor general/secondary scorer on offense, and Dirk could be the primary scorer on offense while contributing his usual reasonable defense.

The problem is, that mix of roles doesn't necessarily maximize the team. The offense would probably be best served with LeBron in his customary role, putting Dirk in a smaller role that he's used to (which diminishes his main mechanism of impact) and we never saw prime Duncan scale his impact almost entirely to defense while operating as more of a role player level scorer. The team is still sick, but the sum would be solidly lesser than the sum of its parts.

The same isn't true of Team 1. The offensive skillsets of these players would lend themselves to a version of the Kobe/Odom/Pau Lakers. Team 1 would be a Megatron version of that unit, with Kobe in a similar role, Hakeem in Pau's slot, and Garnett in Odom's. But on defense, we'd be looking at the best unit in league history. Garnett demonstrated that he was able to translate his impact from more-offense-than-defense to almost entirely defense while remaining at the top of the league in the impact stats. Thus, a defensive unit with KG as the focal point that has, oh, HAKEEM OLAJUWON as his lieutenant and rim protector is almost mind boggling. And since Kobe wouldn't have to carry nearly as much offensive load as Mamba did, we should see more Fro-be level defense which would be a plus on this unit. Even if Kobe focused too much on either the ball or his man, as he was wont to do when in Pitbull mode, that'd be fine because he'd have the greatest defensive safety net ever seen behind him.

Thus, I think Team 1 is pretty clearly the better unit here. They could translate their individual impact almost whole-cloth to the superteam, which makes them the squad with the solidly higher ceiling.

Pretty much this...I mean, a defense with freaking KG and Hakeem? Both dudes are like top 10 defenders all time, they happen to cover up each other's minor weaknesses perfectly AND all three of the first trio fit insanely well offensively.

I'm not sure a team with Lebron can maximize its fit if he's with a top-level offensive talent, honestly.

[G35]

These super-team matchups are more about how the unit would perform than a series of individual talent matchups. And in general, defensive impact (particularly versatile defensive impact) is more additive than offensive impact. Said another way, there's more diminishing returns on individual offensive impact than individual defensive impact in these types of matchups. And the amount of versatility that a player has to be able to maximize his impact is key.

On Team 2, the lion share of LeBron's impact comes on offense (as the primary do-everything with the ball) with a solid defensive impact as well; Dirk's impact is almost entirely on offense (as the primary finisher and spacer off the ball); Duncan's offensive impact is large but his defensive impact is larger and can scale up. For fit purposes, the mix with the least diminishing returns would be if Duncan could focus primarily on defense as the 3rd option on offense, LeBron could focus more on defense and act primarily as the floor general/secondary scorer on offense, and Dirk could be the primary scorer on offense while contributing his usual reasonable defense.

The problem is, that mix of roles doesn't necessarily maximize the team. The offense would probably be best served with LeBron in his customary role, putting Dirk in a smaller role that he's used to (which diminishes his main mechanism of impact) and we never saw prime Duncan scale his impact almost entirely to defense while operating as more of a role player level scorer. The team is still sick, but the sum would be solidly lesser than the sum of its parts.

The same isn't true of Team 1. The offensive skillsets of these players would lend themselves to a version of the Kobe/Odom/Pau Lakers. Team 1 would be a Megatron version of that unit, with Kobe in a similar role, Hakeem in Pau's slot, and Garnett in Odom's. But on defense, we'd be looking at the best unit in league history. Garnett demonstrated that he was able to translate his impact from more-offense-than-defense to almost entirely defense while remaining at the top of the league in the impact stats. Thus, a defensive unit with KG as the focal point that has, oh, HAKEEM OLAJUWON as his lieutenant and rim protector is almost mind boggling. And since Kobe wouldn't have to carry nearly as much offensive load as Mamba did, we should see more Fro-be level defense which would be a plus on this unit. Even if Kobe focused too much on either the ball or his man, as he was wont to do when in Pitbull mode, that'd be fine because he'd have the greatest defensive safety net ever seen behind him.

Thus, I think Team 1 is pretty clearly the better unit here. They could translate their individual impact almost whole-cloth to the superteam, which makes them the squad with the solidly higher ceiling.

Wow I completely agree with this assessment. I do think people are forgetting about fit...Kobe has shown to be capable of playing with elite HOF type big men and complement them. Lebron has not shown that as much imo...I think it does come down to Dirk being marginalized on the offensive end. Dirk is not just a "pick and pop" player, his greatest impact was when he was given the ball on the right block and could punish his defender with his unstoppable fadeaway. With Lebron dominating the ball that element is diminished quite a bit. So if you are turning Dirk into a Jason Terry spot up shooter, I don't think that maximizes Dirk's impact. Now I do think Duncan would not be marginalized so much because of his ability to bang and get O REB's or get to the foul line and of course his defensive impact is immeasurable.

On the other end KG is the ultimate utility player and would have no problems fitting in anywhere. I think HE becomes even better with less offensive responsibilities and able to focus on the defensive end. Hakeem and Kobe are volume scorers who would be able to increase their defensive responsibilities since there is no shortage of offensive abilities. Honestly, I think Hakeem/Kobe is a better version of Shaq/Kobe with a great inside out game. I like the 1st trio because I think Kobe meshes better with big men than Lebron.......

[Quotatious]

I would prefer Kobe/Garnett/Hakeem because of the insanely versatile GOAT defense/excellent offense frontcourt. I have some concerns whether Dirk and Duncan would both be maximized offensively if they play with LeBron. Kobe would certainly have to cut down on his FGAs, but while he's very stubborn, he's not stupid and I think he would do it (much like he did in 2003-04 season, when he averaged his prime low 18.1 FGA). I think if they play together in their primes, Kobe takes about 18 shots, Hakeem 16, KG 14.

[Jiminy Glick]

I would prefer Kobe/Garnett/Hakeem because of the insanely versatile GOAT defense/excellent offense frontcourt. I have some concerns whether Dirk and Duncan would both be maximized offensively if they play with LeBron. Kobe would certainly have to cut down on his FGAs, but while he's very stubborn, he's not stupid and I think he would do it (much like he did in 2003-04 season, when he averaged his prime low 18.1 FGA). I think if they play together in their primes, Kobe takes about 18 shots, Hakeem 16, KG 14.

I'm kind've thinking about changing my answer to kobe/garnett/hakeem. versatile offesne/defense. the shots the 3 of them would be putting up would be fun to watch.

[mademan]

You guys who keep pointing to Bosh/Love as not thriving beside Lebron; you realize they were 3rd options, right? When one of Klay/Draymonds numbers go down this year, are we to believe that Durant cant thrive next (insert type) player?

[G35]

You guys who keep pointing to Bosh/Love as not thriving beside Lebron; you realize they were 3rd options, right? When one of Klay/Draymonds numbers go down this year, are we to believe that Durant cant thrive next (insert type) player?

Well prior to joining Lebron Bosh and Love were 1st options and both were seen as better offensive players than Pau Gasol who improved his numbers dramatically playing next to Kobe. You can make any player on your team a 3rd option (or 1st option) if that is the desire of the coaching staff. The trick is getting the most out of every player. Adding more offensive firepower does not always equate to a better team/synergy if it sacrifices other aspects. The Warriors are finding that out right now that Bogut was a big part of their defensive success.....