Odd Man Out??? - Hunter Waived; Young Stays

[Homerclease]

It is the opposite it will happen more and more. This team is going to be digging in trying to win a championship developmental roster spots will be limited and the team is going to more interested in carrying guys who can come of the bench and make a play or fill a role than taking a flyer and hoping this or that will happen in 3 years.

The real hope is Ainge is picking at 28 or worse year after year and having to deal with this problem.

I disagree, they have three first round picks and a boatload of cap room for next season.

Horford/Zizic/Mickey
Griffin/Giles/Yabusele
Crowder/Brown/Young
Bradley/SmartIf r
IT/Rozier/Jackson

If they are relying on vet min scrapheap guys next year then something went horribly wrong

Correct the boatload of cap room removes the need to automatically fill roster spots with rookie contracts. The roster expansion for the D league will greatly benefit Boston no doubt. But the value in a first round draft picks is threefold. 1 Talent Acquisition, 2. Cost Control, 3. Trade Capital. You seem very stuck on long term talent acquisition. Boston is no longer prioritizing that at all costs. That said they took one of the youngest and most raw prospects in the draft in Brown because of the premium upside but he looks ready to play. Boston is not going to be overly invested in roster spots to guys who can't play in hopes of them being able to play in 3 years.

I don't think there is a big separation between Young and Hunter as far a hard look at projecting them into the future. The reality is Young is better equipped to help now. But the cold reality is they are going to be lucky to be Gerald Green in the future. Boston is not going to be able to commit more than 2 or 3 roster spots to guys who can't contribute. That is why the Spurs are always drafting Euro stash guys or adding 4 year senior pgs who can contribute right away to fill that 3rd PG role and but may not even finish their rookie deal on the roster.

So yes Boston has more picks in the future and guys with draft rights overseas. That doesn't mean that there are going to be less Gerald Greens and Jonas Jerebko's it means that we will be talking about some other former first or second round pick who is moving on because they haven't progressed enough.

No you're not reading me right here, it's not the long term talent acquision that concerns me. It's the fact that for all the Celtics depth people rave about, they still are signing stopgap vet minimum guys to round out their rotation. My point was that hopefully with all these assets and proper cap management that the Celtics will have finally acquired the appropriate manpower to where guys like Gerald Green aren't needed because we grew our own talent, or signed somebody far superior ala Griffin or Hayward.

Gerald Green didn't take a paycut to come to Boston to chase a ring. The guy was almost out of the league and signed a vet minimum deal here, then proceeded to stink up the joint all preseason minus 1 game. Guess what, Hunter had one good game too. The point is really, I don't even remotely consider the Celtics a true contender if guys like Gerald Green are still playing meaningful minutes here. Guys like Green should be chucking bricks for the Nets earning a paycheck. The Celtics are still a year away from true contention but they are clearly moving in the right direction

[Curmudgeon]

I think the best move is probably to cut them both. Whatever the reasons are for keeping Young, I'm pretty sure there's a better talent on the street or in the D-League who could both help us more this year as well as into the future.

Well, Young has talent (more than Hunter). But Young hasn't used it. Having said that I would have cut them both too, and I'd be very surprised if Ainge picks up Young's 4th year option (which makes him an expiring contract and potentially useful filler in a trade).

[Slax]

Whatever the reasons are for keeping Young, I'm pretty sure there's a better talent on the street or in the D-League who could both help us more this year as well as into the future.

I think you're dramatically overestimating the talent in the D league and among other teams' roster trimmings. At the end of the day, we're really just talking about who is getting to be the third best reserve player in case multiple players from our top 12 get injured. Virtually all NBA-ready players as well as young project players with predictably solid futures have already shaken out to their respective teams and have guaranteed contracts at this point, and now we're just talking about sorting through other teams' recycle bins trying to pick out players who couldn't make the top 15 on any other roster. Unless someone good is unexpectedly coming out of retirement or there is some real diamond in the rough, there aren't going to be readily available players out there who are going to contribute to the Celtics significantly more than James Young will, which frankly is likely going to be close to zero anyway.

[ryaningf]

Whatever the reasons are for keeping Young, I'm pretty sure there's a better talent on the street or in the D-League who could both help us more this year as well as into the future.

I think you're dramatically overestimating the talent in the D league and among other teams' roster trimmings. At the end of the day, we're really just talking about who is getting to be the third best reserve player in case multiple players from our top 12 get injured. Virtually all NBA-ready players as well as young project players with predictably solid futures have already shaken out to their respective teams and have guaranteed contracts at this point, and now we're just talking about sorting through other teams' recycle bins trying to pick out players who couldn't make the top 15 on any other roster. Unless someone good is unexpectedly coming out of retirement or there is some real diamond in the rough, there aren't going to be readily available players out there who are going to contribute to the Celtics significantly more than James Young will, which frankly is likely going to be close to zero anyway.

I think you're letting confirmation bias cloud your thinking. Every year somebody off the street gets an opportunity and makes their career, whether we're talking about Jeremy Lin or Hassan Whiteside, the talent is out there, just waiting for an opportunity. Jonathan Simmons is another guy that comes to mind.

I sometimes think Danny uses the D-League and the end of his bench more as a way to reward/placate particular agents than as a way to find diamonds in the rough. Signing Ryan Kelly, for example, which didn't make sense and won't amount to anything, was the 2nd half of some tit for tat. Remember, this came right on the heels of cutting Bentil, yet another Octagon Sports Agency client. If you recall, Bentil signed and got cut by Indiana as a way to get him on their D-League team. Obviously, he could have played for us but his agents didn't think there was opportunity in Boston so they did the old swap-a-roo and suggested Ryan Kelly as the D-League space 4 replacement. Problem is, Kelly can't play, is not an NBA player, doesn't represent a position of need for us, and is simply a way to curry favor with a powerful sports agency. IMO, there was another Octagon client who is a much better prospect, Thomas Walkup, that we should have insisted on signing-to-cut (to secure his D-League rights) but probably Octagon wanted him in Chicago.

And, hey, maybe you need to grease those wheels once in a while, and make these kinds of arrangements with agencies, I don't know, but I do know there's little difference between 13-15 on most NBA rosters and the top 3 guys on any D-League team. For all we know, James Young made this team because of his representation, not his ability. James is with Roc Nation (Durant's reps) while RJ is with the Legacy Agency. The Legacy Agency is a big firm, but mostly in baseball and football. They have Kawhi, Doug McDermott, Trey Burke and RJ Hunter, so don't exactly have much sway in NBA circles.

[Slax]

Whatever the reasons are for keeping Young, I'm pretty sure there's a better talent on the street or in the D-League who could both help us more this year as well as into the future.

I think you're dramatically overestimating the talent in the D league and among other teams' roster trimmings. At the end of the day, we're really just talking about who is getting to be the third best reserve player in case multiple players from our top 12 get injured. Virtually all NBA-ready players as well as young project players with predictably solid futures have already shaken out to their respective teams and have guaranteed contracts at this point, and now we're just talking about sorting through other teams' recycle bins trying to pick out players who couldn't make the top 15 on any other roster. Unless someone good is unexpectedly coming out of retirement or there is some real diamond in the rough, there aren't going to be readily available players out there who are going to contribute to the Celtics significantly more than James Young will, which frankly is likely going to be close to zero anyway.

I think you're letting confirmation bias cloud your thinking. Every year somebody off the street gets an opportunity and makes their career, whether we're talking about Jeremy Lin or Hassan Whiteside, the talent is out there, just waiting for an opportunity. Jonathan Simmons is another guy that comes to mind.

Of course there are players who unexpectedly turn out to be good after struggling or being consigned to the bench or D-league for a couple years before getting picked up by a team where they excel. My point isn't that these players never exist and that there is definitely nobody out there who is better than James Young; on the contrary, there almost definitely are multiple players out there who will prove to be better than Young. Rather, my core argument is that while you seem to think that the D-league is just swimming with the next Whiteside, in reality only a marginal fraction of good NBA players have careers that follow that path, and the ones who do are rare enough and hard enough to discover that it's prohibitively difficult for fans to project who will be the diamonds in the rough who break out. In fact, none of the players you mentioned showed any more than James Young has at a similar stage in their careers before they broke out, and your rationale for getting rid of James Young is exactly the same one that resulted in multiple teams waiving Lin and Whiteside to replace them (or in a couple cases, try and fail to replace them) with other players who were projected to be able to contribute more to the team.

To be clear, I'm not saying James Young is going to be the next Jeremy Lin. Just the opposite, I think there's a really good chance he will be out of the league in two years, just like most other players who are at the fringe of making NBA rosters. I'm just pushing back against your assertion that there are lots of free agents and D-leaguers out there who are a) definitively better than James Young and b) easy to discover and pick up at this point in the free agency process.

[ryaningf]

I think you're dramatically overestimating the talent in the D league and among other teams' roster trimmings. At the end of the day, we're really just talking about who is getting to be the third best reserve player in case multiple players from our top 12 get injured. Virtually all NBA-ready players as well as young project players with predictably solid futures have already shaken out to their respective teams and have guaranteed contracts at this point, and now we're just talking about sorting through other teams' recycle bins trying to pick out players who couldn't make the top 15 on any other roster. Unless someone good is unexpectedly coming out of retirement or there is some real diamond in the rough, there aren't going to be readily available players out there who are going to contribute to the Celtics significantly more than James Young will, which frankly is likely going to be close to zero anyway.

I think you're letting confirmation bias cloud your thinking. Every year somebody off the street gets an opportunity and makes their career, whether we're talking about Jeremy Lin or Hassan Whiteside, the talent is out there, just waiting for an opportunity. Jonathan Simmons is another guy that comes to mind.

Of course there are players who unexpectedly turn out to be good after struggling or being consigned to the bench or D-league for a couple years before getting picked up by a team where they excel. My point isn't that these players never exist and that there is definitely nobody out there who is better than James Young; on the contrary, there almost definitely are multiple players out there who will prove to be better than Young. Rather, my core argument is that while you seem to think that the D-league is just swimming with the next Whiteside, in reality only a marginal fraction of good NBA players have careers that follow that path, and the ones who do are rare enough and hard enough to discover that it's prohibitively difficult for fans to project who will be the diamonds in the rough who break out. In fact, none of the players you mentioned showed any more than James Young has at a similar stage in their careers before they broke out, and your rationale for getting rid of James Young is exactly the same one that resulted in multiple teams waiving Lin and Whiteside to replace them (or in a couple cases, try and fail to replace them) with other players who were projected to be able to contribute more to the team.

To be clear, I'm not saying James Young is going to be the next Jeremy Lin. Just the opposite, I think there's a really good chance he will be out of the league in two years, just like most other players who are at the fringe of making NBA rosters. I'm just pushing back against your assertion that there are lots of free agents and D-leaguers out there who are a) definitively better than James Young and b) easy to discover and pick up at this point in the free agency process.

I'm not sure you know what you're saying, but whatever. The point is pretty simple: the right opportunity at the right time is all that's standing between many D-Leaguers and the NBA. And opportunity is rarely tied strictly to merit.

[nowyouknow]

Young has loads of talent and up until this preseason really hasn't shown any work ethic.

With him showing that, and with the improvements to his body being significant, it seems pretty clear that he earned his spot on the merit of both his talents and his newfound work ethic.

The key is him continuing to put in that work even when he's not getting consistent time.

[Slax]

I'm not sure you know what you're saying, but whatever. The point is pretty simple: the right opportunity at the right time is all that's standing between many D-Leaguers and the NBA. And opportunity is rarely tied strictly to merit.

I'm saying that there's a gigantic gap between "there are D-leaguers who are or will be better than James Young" (100% true) and coming up with an actual list of D-league players who have more than a coin flip's chance of contributing more to the Celtics than James Young. Who are all these D-league players with enough merit to deserve an opportunity over James Young, and is randomly cycling players in and out of our 15-man roster after the preseason has already ended really the best way to discover them?

[sully00]

Boston is not going to be overly invested in roster spots to guys who can't play in hopes of them being able to play in 3 years.

The reality is Young is better equipped to help now.

Really having a hard time squaring these 2 statements. If Boston isn't overly concerned about roster spots for guys who can't play right now, why keep Young, a guy you need to make a decision on by next week regarding whether you give him a 4th year guaranteed? By not cutting him now, aren't you basically committing to him for 2 more years? And if you aren't picking up his option, and he's eminently unplayable at this point in his career, what's the point of keeping him around this year?

While I disagree vehemently that Young is better equipped to help right now, I guess that's an argument that can be made. The problem is and always will be with drafting 19 year olds outside the lottery is that they don't pay off (*if* they pay off) until their 2nd contract and I just don't see a scenario where we're going to take that gamble here with James. Too many better similarly aged guys at his positions who are better prospects. So we're basically holding on to Young to secure the end of the bench on the low percentage chance that he shows enough in the D-League that he gets some team interested in him as a trade throw-in.

If you don't think RJ Hunter is better than James Young and you're not going to pick up Young's 4th year because he hasn't shown enough to warrant it (and he hasn't because just last week you were thinking of cutting him and/or trying to trade him for a 2nd rounder), I think the best move is probably to cut them both. Whatever the reasons are for keeping Young, I'm pretty sure there's a better talent on the street or in the D-League who could both help us more this year as well as into the future.

James Young plaid better than RJ Hunter this pre season in the games and in practice according to his coach and GM. It was a competition for a roster spot Young won. I think Boston feels it can rely on Young in regular season I don't think that was the case with Hunter who was not 19 years old.

No real argument against cutting both but Ainge has made it pretty clear he was going to pick up the option on whichever player he decided to keep. The option is only money and Ainge has money to burn at the moment so he will likely pick up the option in the event that Young performs.

James Young was drafted by a 26 win that was focused on building through the draft. It was fast but that focus has shifted. It may have been at the last possible moment but at least for that moment James Young has developed enough to stay on that team,

[Slartibartfast]

Young has loads of talent and up until this preseason really hasn't shown any work ethic.

With him showing that, and with the improvements to his body being significant, it seems pretty clear that he earned his spot on the merit of both his talents and his newfound work ethic.

The key is him continuing to put in that work even when he's not getting consistent time.

I have yet to see his talent.

He's a solid but streaky shooter. He's an okay rebounder. He's got an okay floater and he can drive in a straight line. He's got good size and length, but mediocre athleticism. He's a bad defender on and off the ball. He's not a shot-creator, not a passer.

His ceiling is CJ Miles and he's got a long way to go to get there.

[ConstableGeneva]

No one claimed RJ Hunter off waivers. He became a free agent along with 23 other guys today. I imagine some of them are heading to the D-League.

[DoubleHappiness]

No one claimed RJ Hunter off waivers. He became a free agent along with 23 other guys today. I imagine some of them are heading to the D-League.

Wow. That is pretty surprising. Wonder if RJ will end up in the D League or go to Europe for the payday. Tough break for those guys to not get picked up and see Stauskas still sitting there on a roster.

[Homerclease]

No one claimed RJ Hunter off waivers. He became a free agent along with 23 other guys today. I imagine some of them are heading to the D-League.

Wow. That is pretty surprising. Wonder if RJ will end up in the D League or go to Europe for the payday. Tough break for those guys to not get picked up and see Stauskas still sitting there on a roster.

If I were him I'd go to China and get paid, nobody plays defense over there anyway so he will do fine and make a million or so bucks while he's at it

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

Young has loads of talent and up until this preseason really hasn't shown any work ethic.

With him showing that, and with the improvements to his body being significant, it seems pretty clear that he earned his spot on the merit of both his talents and his newfound work ethic.

The key is him continuing to put in that work even when he's not getting consistent time.

I have yet to see his talent.

He's a solid but streaky shooter. He's an okay rebounder. He's got an okay floater and he can drive in a straight line. He's got good size and length, but mediocre athleticism. He's a bad defender on and off the ball. He's not a shot-creator, not a passer.

His ceiling is CJ Miles and he's got a long way to go to get there.

You nailed it. He's a catch and shoot guy and if you do nothing else in the league, which he doesn't, he'd better shoot it at a high percentage, which he hasn't. He wont be with the Celtics next year guaranteed and if he is, I'd be baffled. Mickey's on the clock too. Hopefully we can somehow keep him stashed in the D league with the new CBA effecting the Dleague to a greater extent. It's soo time for each team to have a farm system of their own.

[ConstableGeneva]

Read on Twitter

Good for him.

[Celtic Esquire]

No one claimed RJ Hunter off waivers. He became a free agent along with 23 other guys today. I imagine some of them are heading to the D-League.

Surprised to see that no one placed a claim for Archie Goodwin.

When he got minutes in PHX, he produced.

[nowyouknow]

Young has loads of talent and up until this preseason really hasn't shown any work ethic.

With him showing that, and with the improvements to his body being significant, it seems pretty clear that he earned his spot on the merit of both his talents and his newfound work ethic.

The key is him continuing to put in that work even when he's not getting consistent time.

I have yet to see his talent.

He's a solid but streaky shooter. He's an okay rebounder. He's got an okay floater and he can drive in a straight line. He's got good size and length, but mediocre athleticism. He's a bad defender on and off the ball. He's not a shot-creator, not a passer.

His ceiling is CJ Miles and he's got a long way to go to get there.

His defense is a work in progress. But you have to like the physical tools. 7 foot wingspan and 8'8" standing reach and looks quite capable of adding more weight to his frame.

Young averaged over 4 rebounds a game on a loaded rebounding Kentucky team.

His defensive rebounding rate in the d-league this last season was north of 20%. He has good coaching on the fundamentals in the box out game and excellent length. This has been an area of Young's game and motor that is underrated. He sticks his nose into the rebounding action.

In the preseason, against mixed competition his defensive rebound rate was north of 19%.

He shot 44% in his first year in the d-league from 3, and made 35% in the preseason.

The thing that Young has in that "stretch" 4 or versatile forward mold is a knack for putting the ball in the basket from all ranges southpaw.

If you have a high release point, quick release, can straight line drive on a close out and finish strong left or hit a floater... that's the makings of a successful player.

He's not a good passer or perimeter defender. But he is versatile defending 2-4. And while he will never be confused with Ginobli he has better fundamentals in making quick decisions with the ball.

He has a lot more work to do but now that he is working, his path to beating out a Jonas or Gerald becomes more clear.

[cellar-door]

No one claimed RJ Hunter off waivers. He became a free agent along with 23 other guys today. I imagine some of them are heading to the D-League.

Surprised to see that no one placed a claim for Archie Goodwin.

When he got minutes in PHX, he produced.

Produced what exactly? He was a guard who couldn't shoot or defend and turned it over a ton, I wouldn't expect any team to pick up a 1st round contract for that kind of guy. Someone will sign him for the minimum likely.

[Slartibartfast]

Young has loads of talent and up until this preseason really hasn't shown any work ethic.

With him showing that, and with the improvements to his body being significant, it seems pretty clear that he earned his spot on the merit of both his talents and his newfound work ethic.

The key is him continuing to put in that work even when he's not getting consistent time.

I have yet to see his talent.

He's a solid but streaky shooter. He's an okay rebounder. He's got an okay floater and he can drive in a straight line. He's got good size and length, but mediocre athleticism. He's a bad defender on and off the ball. He's not a shot-creator, not a passer.

His ceiling is CJ Miles and he's got a long way to go to get there.

His defense is a work in progress. But you have to like the physical tools. 7 foot wingspan and 8'8" standing reach and looks quite capable of adding more weight to his frame.

Young averaged over 4 rebounds a game on a loaded rebounding Kentucky team.

His defensive rebounding rate in the d-league this last season was north of 20%. He has good coaching on the fundamentals in the box out game and excellent length. This has been an area of Young's game and motor that is underrated. He sticks his nose into the rebounding action.

In the preseason, against mixed competition his defensive rebound rate was north of 19%.

He shot 44% in his first year in the d-league from 3, and made 35% in the preseason.

The thing that Young has in that "stretch" 4 or versatile forward mold is a knack for putting the ball in the basket from all ranges southpaw.

If you have a high release point, quick release, can straight line drive on a close out and finish strong left or hit a floater... that's the makings of a successful player.

He's not a good passer or perimeter defender. But he is versatile defending 2-4. And while he will never be confused with Ginobli he has better fundamentals in making quick decisions with the ball.

He has a lot more work to do but now that he is working, his path to beating out a Jonas or Gerald becomes more clear.

James has length yes, but not as much as Jonas - Jonas has 4 inches of standing reach on him. That's legit length for a PF to go with a beefier frame.

Frame wise Young is more like James Jones. Athletically too - both guys slow laterally. But again, Jones longer.

And no Young is not versatile defensively - he can't guard wings or forwards well. His length really only serves him rebounding in traffic and occasionally getting in passing lanes.

He's just a bad player on that end with a lot of work to get to bench journeyman levels of shooters like Rasual Butler and James Jones.

And his offense just isn't very impressive - streaky 3 point shooting isn't that uncommon and he doesn't have anything else really compelling. The floater is a mediocre shot - doesn't draw fouls and not all that efficient for a paint shot.

[cl2117]

Read on Twitter

Good for him.

Good for him, but I don't like the fit. The Bulls need shooting, but are flush with guards. He's back to being buried.