Let the season begin!! Kings @ Suns

[grumpysaddle]

Would you take Robin Lopez of now over Len from right now? I think I would.

[bwgood77]

Would you take Robin Lopez of now over Len from right now? I think I would.

If we were vying for a playoff spot, yes, but I will give Len this year, because he is still young. And we can draft a center or PG in draft or just let Chandler and Williams play next year, and use on of our two 2018 picks to get a center. We can always go small next year with our two current rookies at 4/5.

[grumpysaddle]

Would you take Robin Lopez of now over Len from right now? I think I would.

If we were vying for a playoff spot, yes, but I will give Len this year, because he is still young. And we can draft a center or PG in draft or just let Chandler and Williams play next year, and use on of our two 2018 picks to get a center. We can always go small next year with our two current rookies at 4/5.

I could tell Len tries to get better, he just doesn't seem capable of it. He needs to stop playing like he's made of glass and start punishing people. When he goes up strong and dunks on people, that's what he should be doing all the time. But he plays like a 5' player all timid under the basket. At least Lopez wouldn't care about having the ball on offense and would just bang for rebounds. I'd still let Len have this season but someone's gotta tell him it's now or never.

[bwgood77]

Would you take Robin Lopez of now over Len from right now? I think I would.

If we were vying for a playoff spot, yes, but I will give Len this year, because he is still young. And we can draft a center or PG in draft or just let Chandler and Williams play next year, and use on of our two 2018 picks to get a center. We can always go small next year with our two current rookies at 4/5.

I could tell Len tries to get better, he just doesn't seem capable of it. He needs to stop playing like he's made of glass and start punishing people. When he goes up strong and dunks on people, that's what he should be doing all the time. But he plays like a 5' player all timid under the basket. At least Lopez wouldn't care about having the ball on offense and would just bang for rebounds. I'd still let Len have this season but someone's gotta tell him it's now or never.

I'm hoping much of this game was first game jitters. You had Bledsoe coming off another big long term injury, and Warren as well, and add on to that starting for the first time. Booker starting for the first time with huge expectations. Dudley and Chandler came out and did their parts.

Knight adjusting to a new role, and playing with subpar guys like Barbosa and Tucker coming off injury as well as another nervous guy in first start in Chriss, who turned it over 4 times. I think Bledsoe, Booker and Chriss all turned it over 4 times, but they all had reason to be nervous to some extent.

That's what makes what Ulis/Benders games so impressive. Seemingly no nerves and ready to go. Perhaps because they didn't think they were playing and got their chance and wanted to prove themselves, excited to get into the game.

[lilfishi22]

Would you take Robin Lopez of now over Len from right now? I think I would.

Right now. Yes. He's a better player because he knows his place. He's a high energy defensive C who rebounds and blocks shots and he's known this since he came into the league.What kind of player he is and what he's capable of. He's still trying to figure out what he's good at and at this point, he's really only OK at defense and rebounding. It's when he tries to do too much, especially on the offensive end, that's when he looks subpar.

From a versatility standpoint, he does a bit of everything but does nothing well. He NEEDS to figure out what he should be focusing on and stick with it. Right now, his defense isn't that bad and he should keep developing that side of his game.

[TeamTragic]

Would you take Robin Lopez of now over Len from right now? I think I would.

There is literally no difference right now. Both are garbage players.

[Jdiddy701]

Robin Lopez? Ew disgusting. Both players suck and play like women.

Edit: I mean girls. Women are too manly for both.

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[NavLDO]

Would you take Robin Lopez of now over Len from right now? I think I would.

If we were vying for a playoff spot, yes, but I will give Len this year, because he is still young. And we can draft a center or PG in draft or just let Chandler and Williams play next year, and use on of our two 2018 picks to get a center. We can always go small next year with our two current rookies at 4/5.

And then when we play poorly or lose, we can blame Len because if he didn't suck, he would still be on the team as a good Center. It would be his fault we had to play 'small ball'. At least that's what one particular poster (who shall remain nameless) mentioned halfway through preseason in a game thread.

Basically, it's Len's fault when he's ON the floor, and it's his fault when he's OFF the floor, hence, it's always his fault. Yep--that makes perfect sense...

[bwgood77]

Would you take Robin Lopez of now over Len from right now? I think I would.

If we were vying for a playoff spot, yes, but I will give Len this year, because he is still young. And we can draft a center or PG in draft or just let Chandler and Williams play next year, and use on of our two 2018 picks to get a center. We can always go small next year with our two current rookies at 4/5.

And then when we play poorly or lose, we can blame Len because if he didn't suck, he would still be on the team as a good Center. It would be his fault we had to play 'small ball'. At least that's what one particular poster (who shall remain nameless) mentioned halfway through preseason in a game thread.

Basically, it's Len's fault when he's ON the floor, and it's his fault when he's OFF the floor, hence, it's always his fault. Yep--that makes perfect sense...

If you watched Len throughout a whole game, you might understand. I want to give him a chance this year, but so far, he has been extremely subpar. Not sure why you are hanging on to this "Len is really good" perspective, and how long it will continue, but you're not going to find anyone watching the games thus far agreeing with you.

[bwgood77]

Robin Lopez? Ew disgusting. Both players suck and play like women.

Edit: I mean girls. Women are too manly for both.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

It's getting a little old that you are degrading women and girls, but it should not continue.

[Zelaznyrules]

If we were vying for a playoff spot, yes, but I will give Len this year, because he is still young. And we can draft a center or PG in draft or just let Chandler and Williams play next year, and use on of our two 2018 picks to get a center. We can always go small next year with our two current rookies at 4/5.

And then when we play poorly or lose, we can blame Len because if he didn't suck, he would still be on the team as a good Center. It would be his fault we had to play 'small ball'. At least that's what one particular poster (who shall remain nameless) mentioned halfway through preseason in a game thread.

Basically, it's Len's fault when he's ON the floor, and it's his fault when he's OFF the floor, hence, it's always his fault. Yep--that makes perfect sense...

If you watched Len throughout a whole game, you might understand. I want to give him a chance this year, but so far, he has been extremely subpar. Not sure why you are hanging on to this "Len is really good" perspective, and how long it will continue, but you're not going to find anyone watching the games thus far agreeing with you.

Agreed. There was a stretch during our comeback against the Kings where Len seemed to sabotage us every time we gained momentum. He had an easy driving layup that he fumbled out of bounds. And another fumble that was saved and then rotated to the other side and then back to a now uncovered Len for a layup. That one would have made him look good in the box score but it took great play by 3 other players so that Alex could get that easy basket. But what really killed us was the offensive boards he gave up.

During that first comeback stretch with Ulis, there were 2 plays in a 45 second stretch that highlight one of the several problems we have with Alex. Len was guarding WCS about 12 feet from the basket when the shot went up. Both times, he took a half-hearted step to the hoop and the ball sailed over his head into Stein's open arms. Had he kept his body on Willie, he would have had both rebounds and likely a trip or two to the free throw line too as Stein would probably have gone over his back trying to get to the ball.

I wouldn't have been so pissed if Len failed to block out because he was crashing the board but he didn't even do that, he just voluntarily gave up rebounding space to his opponent. These things don't show up to a stats watcher but anyone that actually watches the games sees them. He boxes out when he's 6 to 8 feet from the hoop and is actually a halfway decent rebounder in those situations, but he kills us when his man pulls him any further from the hoop.

[NavLDO]

If we were vying for a playoff spot, yes, but I will give Len this year, because he is still young. And we can draft a center or PG in draft or just let Chandler and Williams play next year, and use on of our two 2018 picks to get a center. We can always go small next year with our two current rookies at 4/5.

And then when we play poorly or lose, we can blame Len because if he didn't suck, he would still be on the team as a good Center. It would be his fault we had to play 'small ball'. At least that's what one particular poster (who shall remain nameless) mentioned halfway through preseason in a game thread.

Basically, it's Len's fault when he's ON the floor, and it's his fault when he's OFF the floor, hence, it's always his fault. Yep--that makes perfect sense...

If you watched Len throughout a whole game, you might understand. I want to give him a chance this year, but so far, he has been extremely subpar. Not sure why you are hanging on to this "Len is really good" perspective, and how long it will continue, but you're not going to find anyone watching the games thus far agreeing with you.

Where in there did I say Len is really good ? I'll wait...

If you read my whole post you might understand that I was making reference to how Len is blamed for everything, whether he's on the floor or not.

So no, I'm not 'hanging' on to anything. And trying to use posts from weeks ago, before, or at the very start of, preseason, is not reason enough to 'blame' me for that notion. Please just reply to the post that is written, not any inferences you decide to make based upon older posts from several weeks ago.

[bwgood77]

And then when we play poorly or lose, we can blame Len because if he didn't suck, he would still be on the team as a good Center. It would be his fault we had to play 'small ball'. At least that's what one particular poster (who shall remain nameless) mentioned halfway through preseason in a game thread.

Basically, it's Len's fault when he's ON the floor, and it's his fault when he's OFF the floor, hence, it's always his fault. Yep--that makes perfect sense...

If you watched Len throughout a whole game, you might understand. I want to give him a chance this year, but so far, he has been extremely subpar. Not sure why you are hanging on to this "Len is really good" perspective, and how long it will continue, but you're not going to find anyone watching the games thus far agreeing with you.

Where in there did I say Len is really good ? I'll wait...

If you read my whole post you might understand that I was making reference to how Len is blamed for everything, whether he's on the floor or not.

So no, I'm not 'hanging' on to anything. And trying to use posts from weeks ago, before, or at the very start of, preseason, is not reason enough to 'blame' me for that notion. Please just reply to the post that is written, not any inferences you decide to make based upon older posts from several weeks ago.

I really had no point what you were trying to make, though it sounded like you were trying to say Len shouldn't be blamed for things. People certainly don't blame him for Knight's poor play, or Tucker's, or Barbosa's, or Bledsoe's or whoever else when they have play poorly. People are pretty specific when they talk about how people play. I don't see too many people saying we lost because of Len (when he didn't play) or anything of that nature.

[NavLDO]

And then when we play poorly or lose, we can blame Len because if he didn't suck, he would still be on the team as a good Center. It would be his fault we had to play 'small ball'. At least that's what one particular poster (who shall remain nameless) mentioned halfway through preseason in a game thread.

Basically, it's Len's fault when he's ON the floor, and it's his fault when he's OFF the floor, hence, it's always his fault. Yep--that makes perfect sense...

If you watched Len throughout a whole game, you might understand. I want to give him a chance this year, but so far, he has been extremely subpar. Not sure why you are hanging on to this "Len is really good" perspective, and how long it will continue, but you're not going to find anyone watching the games thus far agreeing with you.

Agreed. There was a stretch during our comeback against the Kings where Len seemed to sabotage us every time we gained momentum. He had an easy driving layup that he fumbled out of bounds. And another fumble that was saved and then rotated to the other side and then back to a now uncovered Len for a layup. That one would have made him look good in the box score but it took great play by 3 other players so that Alex could get that easy basket. But what really killed us was the offensive boards he gave up.

During that first comeback stretch with Ulis, there were 2 plays in a 45 second stretch that highlight one of the several problems we have with Alex. Len was guarding WCS about 12 feet from the basket when the shot went up. Both times, he took a half-hearted step to the hoop and the ball sailed over his head into Stein's open arms. Had he kept his body on Willie, he would have had both rebounds and likely a trip or two to the free throw line too as Stein would probably have gone over his back trying to get to the ball.

I wouldn't have been so pissed if Len failed to block out because he was crashing the board but he didn't even do that, he just voluntarily gave up rebounding space to his opponent. These things don't show up to a stats watcher but anyone that actually watches the games sees them. He boxes out when he's 6 to 8 feet from the hoop and is actually a halfway decent rebounder in those situations, but he kills us when his man pulls him any further from the hoop.

So, as I mentioned to bwgood, never not ONCE, defended Len for his performance in this game and haven't defended his play for a couple of weeks, so just like you want to blame Len for when he's not on the court, you are attempting to blame me for something I never said, thus infering that I am defending his play in this game.

I was solely making reference to your blaming of Len when he's not even on the court.

[bwgood77]

So, as I mentioned to bwgood, never not ONCE, defended Len for his performance in this game and haven't defended his play for a couple of weeks, so just like you want to blame Len for when he's not on the court, you are attempting to blame me for something I never said, thus infering that I am defending his play in this game.

I was solely making reference to your blaming of Len when he's not even on the court.

Can you point out where Len was blamed even when not on the court? You quoted my post and even bolded a line, but it has nothing to do regarding that.

[Zelaznyrules]

So, as I mentioned to bwgood, never not ONCE, defended Len for his performance in this game and haven't defended his play for a couple of weeks, so just like you want to blame Len for when he's not on the court, you are attempting to blame me for something I never said, thus infering that I am defending his play in this game.

I was solely making reference to your blaming of Len when he's not even on the court.

Can you point out where Len was blamed even when not on the court? You quoted my post and even bolded a line, but it has nothing to do regarding that.

He was taking a shot at me, not you. He thought the criticism of Len in a preseason game was out of line because bad things happened while Len was no longer on the court. I pointed out that we were getting blown out while Len was there (12 - 2 IIRC) and because of that we gambled on a non-traditional lineup that also failed. So he wanted to hold Len blameless for everything that happened afterwards and my contention was that it wouldn't have happened if our starting center hadn't played so poorly.

[jcsunsfan]

I just want Len to rebound the basketball, protect the rim, and throw down a dunk rather than a layup. He doesn't have to shoot the midrange shot, he doesn't have to have post moves. Set a pick every once in a while and dive to the rim. He does not have to be a star. He just has to act like he is actually playing basketball.


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[Zelaznyrules]

If you watched Len throughout a whole game, you might understand. I want to give him a chance this year, but so far, he has been extremely subpar. Not sure why you are hanging on to this "Len is really good" perspective, and how long it will continue, but you're not going to find anyone watching the games thus far agreeing with you.

Agreed. There was a stretch during our comeback against the Kings where Len seemed to sabotage us every time we gained momentum. He had an easy driving layup that he fumbled out of bounds. And another fumble that was saved and then rotated to the other side and then back to a now uncovered Len for a layup. That one would have made him look good in the box score but it took great play by 3 other players so that Alex could get that easy basket. But what really killed us was the offensive boards he gave up.

During that first comeback stretch with Ulis, there were 2 plays in a 45 second stretch that highlight one of the several problems we have with Alex. Len was guarding WCS about 12 feet from the basket when the shot went up. Both times, he took a half-hearted step to the hoop and the ball sailed over his head into Stein's open arms. Had he kept his body on Willie, he would have had both rebounds and likely a trip or two to the free throw line too as Stein would probably have gone over his back trying to get to the ball.

I wouldn't have been so pissed if Len failed to block out because he was crashing the board but he didn't even do that, he just voluntarily gave up rebounding space to his opponent. These things don't show up to a stats watcher but anyone that actually watches the games sees them. He boxes out when he's 6 to 8 feet from the hoop and is actually a halfway decent rebounder in those situations, but he kills us when his man pulls him any further from the hoop.

So, as I mentioned to bwgood, never not ONCE, defended Len for his performance in this game and haven't defended his play for a couple of weeks, so just like you want to blame Len for when he's not on the court, you are attempting to blame me for something I never said, thus infering that I am defending his play in this game.

I was solely making reference to your blaming of Len when he's not even on the court.

I was making a general comment in support of bw's point that just looking at stats can be misleading. Nowhere in my post did I suggest you were praising Len or defending Len in this game specifically.

[NavLDO]

Agreed. There was a stretch during our comeback against the Kings where Len seemed to sabotage us every time we gained momentum. He had an easy driving layup that he fumbled out of bounds. And another fumble that was saved and then rotated to the other side and then back to a now uncovered Len for a layup. That one would have made him look good in the box score but it took great play by 3 other players so that Alex could get that easy basket. But what really killed us was the offensive boards he gave up.

During that first comeback stretch with Ulis, there were 2 plays in a 45 second stretch that highlight one of the several problems we have with Alex. Len was guarding WCS about 12 feet from the basket when the shot went up. Both times, he took a half-hearted step to the hoop and the ball sailed over his head into Stein's open arms. Had he kept his body on Willie, he would have had both rebounds and likely a trip or two to the free throw line too as Stein would probably have gone over his back trying to get to the ball.

I wouldn't have been so pissed if Len failed to block out because he was crashing the board but he didn't even do that, he just voluntarily gave up rebounding space to his opponent. These things don't show up to a stats watcher but anyone that actually watches the games sees them. He boxes out when he's 6 to 8 feet from the hoop and is actually a halfway decent rebounder in those situations, but he kills us when his man pulls him any further from the hoop.

So, as I mentioned to bwgood, never not ONCE, defended Len for his performance in this game and haven't defended his play for a couple of weeks, so just like you want to blame Len for when he's not on the court, you are attempting to blame me for something I never said, thus infering that I am defending his play in this game.

I was solely making reference to your blaming of Len when he's not even on the court.

I was making a general comment in support of bw's point that just looking at stats can be misleading. Nowhere in my post did I suggest you were praising Len or defending Len in this game specifically.

If you watched Len throughout a whole game, you might understand. I want to give him a chance this year, but so far, he has been extremely subpar. Not sure why you are hanging on to this "Len is really good" perspective,and how long it will continue, but you're not going to find anyone watching the games thus far agreeing with you.

2/3rds of his statement was about me, to which you responded "Agreed". How else am I supposed to take that point, exactly?

Again, I get that Len hasn't shown well so far this season, and I've given up on defending Len since 'play has resumed'; you'll notice that I've completely forsaken defending Len's play anymore. I just hope, as you all do, that he somehow magically turns it around, but so far, he's looked worse than his play in the last 2+ months of last season, so I'm not blindly defending or supporting Len, but I do draw a line in blaming a player for when he's not on the court. Teams play without Bench players all the time and win, so I do not see how blaming a bench player when he's not on the court has any relevance to team success.

and @ BW, zelaznyrules pretty much answered your question. It was said, and I was alluding to the fact that Len takes more 'flak' on these forums than another player...as a backup. He gets blamed for losing games even when he's not the biggest culprit to our losses, and shouldn't be, since he is a back-up. I just think people need to let it go; Len was drafted over 3 seasons ago and didn't pan out. OK, fine, he's a back-up for a reason. If a fan wants to blame players, how about we start with our starters. Seeing a back-up get blasted 20-30 times a game thread is pointless.

Gm 1, starting on pg 5, it begins, with a grand total of 34 negative comments on Len, and pretty sure Knight isn't too far behind. But it's just the same rehash game-thread after game-thread. "Len sucks, and when he doesn't suck, it's only because he's playing against the other teams' scrubs, or the only way he gets rebounds are off is own missed shots." Probably just need to do myself, and everyone else a favor and not come into game-threads...but then I miss the fan impressions of the rookies, which is really what I hope to come in and read while in them--not 'Len sucks' 35x.

Ah well...it is what it is, I guess.

[NavLDO]

Len is looking like Plumlee out there... Yikes

Rather have Plumlee back at this point.

Really?? You'd rather pay $12.5M for a 5-year-older Center with, so far, 8 mpg, 1 Blk, 1 Reb, 1 Asst, and 0-2 from the floor? I wouldn't. As bad as Len is, the fact is we are paying $8M less for his services.