3rd time's a charm?: Cle vs Orl 10/29

[PennytoShaq]

I would be pained to watch the game tonight knowing our current state, so can someone summarize what we did well to come back within 6 at the end?

Anything noteworthy that may translate to the next game?

I'm not off the wagon yet, but I certainly have tempered expectations now. If we are going to be a bad team, we need to be a very bad team.

We went small and got more spacing and made shots. Our rotations were better because we had more speed on the court.

Honestly, our small lineups were not even our most optimal ones. Gordon didn't get put back in the game soon enough and Mario didn't get enough burn.

People are saying Mario and Evan suck but I think they are a byproduct of poor spacing. Evan made some big shots down the stretch when we went small. Every time Mario has had some space he has knocked down 3's.

Reality is we got the game within 3 with no Vuc on the floor. I am not slamming Vuc, he is a great player, but I just do not think he fits on our team anymore. The Magic have the talent to be a big time small ball team with Gordon at the 4 and Ibaka and Biz at 5. The talent is there now. We get the right SF and this team can play with anybody.

If we had gone small all 4 Qs against Cleveland, I believe we could have won that game. Regardless, the sky is not falling. We just need to hope that Frank and Co see the same thing and make the proper changes now.

[j_n]

I think Tobias is a fine player but I don't miss him. He wouldn't exactly be what the doctor ordered for our team right now. He'd be just another guy who isn't a great outside shooter. If he becomes a 40% 3pt shooter for an entire season, I might miss him a little bit.

He'd easily be one of our best shooters on this team. He shot close to 37% before and after Skiles.

I'd still rather have him than Jeff Green.

While I cant stand the talk about Tobias Harris around here, the myth about him and Skiles bothers me even more.

Before getting traded last year, Harris took 147 threes and made 45 of them for 30.6%.

When you look deeper into those numbers you see that 54% of those shots were considered "wide open" meaning no defender withing 6 feet, Out of those he made 32.9% of his wide open three point attempts.
39% of his three point attempts were considered open, meaning the closest defender was 4-6 feet from him, he made 27.6% of his open threes.
Overall, over 93% of Harris threes were open or wide open and he shot under 31% from three, worse than Elf, Ibaka and Oladipo.

So the whole Skiles holding him back thing means what exactly? did Skiles hurt his feelings causing him to miss open threes?
The guy is as streaky as they come and will have nights where his shot is falling and he looks great and will have nights where he miss open shots and looks bad.

[JF5]

I would be pained to watch the game tonight knowing our current state, so can someone summarize what we did well to come back within 6 at the end?

Anything noteworthy that may translate to the next game?

I'm not off the wagon yet, but I certainly have tempered expectations now. If we are going to be a bad team, we need to be a very bad team.

Let's just say that spacing was actually addressed tonight. Plus, either Vucevic shouldn't be starting next game and or Gordon should no longer be starting at the 3 and should be playing more of the 4 if the Magic want to win.

[PrimeThyme]

I would be pained to watch the game tonight knowing our current state, so can someone summarize what we did well to come back within 6 at the end?

Anything noteworthy that may translate to the next game?

I'm not off the wagon yet, but I certainly have tempered expectations now. If we are going to be a bad team, we need to be a very bad team.

We went small and got more spacing and made shots. Our rotations were better because we had more speed on the court.

Honestly, our small lineups were not even our most optimal ones. Gordon didn't get put back in the game soon enough and Mario didn't get enough burn.

People are saying Mario and Evan suck but I think they are a byproduct of poor spacing. Evan made some big shots down the stretch when we went small. Every time Mario has had some space he has knocked down 3's.

Reality is we got the game within 3 with no Vuc on the floor. I am not slamming Vuc, he is a great player, but I just do not think he fits on our team anymore. The Magic have the talent to be a big time small ball team with Gordon at the 4 and Ibaka and Biz at 5. The talent is there now. We get the right SF and this team can play with anybody.

If we had gone small all 4 Qs against Cleveland, I believe we could have won that game. Regardless, the sky is not falling. We just need to hope that Frank and Co see the same thing and make the proper changes now.

Do you think frank has it in him to sit Vuc this early in the season? It's so clear that small ball is going to be the best lineups for our team I'm just worried that Frank has already committed to "going big". I guess will see, I hope he's seen the light as well.

[basketballRob]

I would be pained to watch the game tonight knowing our current state, so can someone summarize what we did well to come back within 6 at the end?

Anything noteworthy that may translate to the next game?

I'm not off the wagon yet, but I certainly have tempered expectations now. If we are going to be a bad team, we need to be a very bad team.

We went small and got more spacing and made shots. Our rotations were better because we had more speed on the court.

Honestly, our small lineups were not even our most optimal ones. Gordon didn't get put back in the game soon enough and Mario didn't get enough burn.

People are saying Mario and Evan suck but I think they are a byproduct of poor spacing. Evan made some big shots down the stretch when we went small. Every time Mario has had some space he has knocked down 3's.

Reality is we got the game within 3 with no Vuc on the floor. I am not slamming Vuc, he is a great player, but I just do not think he fits on our team anymore. The Magic have the talent to be a big time small ball team with Gordon at the 4 and Ibaka and Biz at 5. The talent is there now. We get the right SF and this team can play with anybody.

If we had gone small all 4 Qs against Cleveland, I believe we could have won that game. Regardless, the sky is not falling. We just need to hope that Frank and Co see the same thing and make the proper changes now.

Do you think frank has it in him to sit Vuc this early in the season? It's so clear that small ball is going to be the best lineups for our team I'm just worried that Frank has already committed to "going big". I guess will see, I hope he's seen the light as well.

It's tough to bench a guy when your record while them as a starter is like 100-250. Sarcasm..

[fklt]

fournier plays like vic's spirit infested his mind this season.

[PrimeThyme]

We went small and got more spacing and made shots. Our rotations were better because we had more speed on the court.

Honestly, our small lineups were not even our most optimal ones. Gordon didn't get put back in the game soon enough and Mario didn't get enough burn.

People are saying Mario and Evan suck but I think they are a byproduct of poor spacing. Evan made some big shots down the stretch when we went small. Every time Mario has had some space he has knocked down 3's.

Reality is we got the game within 3 with no Vuc on the floor. I am not slamming Vuc, he is a great player, but I just do not think he fits on our team anymore. The Magic have the talent to be a big time small ball team with Gordon at the 4 and Ibaka and Biz at 5. The talent is there now. We get the right SF and this team can play with anybody.

If we had gone small all 4 Qs against Cleveland, I believe we could have won that game. Regardless, the sky is not falling. We just need to hope that Frank and Co see the same thing and make the proper changes now.

Do you think frank has it in him to sit Vuc this early in the season? It's so clear that small ball is going to be the best lineups for our team I'm just worried that Frank has already committed to "going big". I guess will see, I hope he's seen the light as well.

It's tough to bench a guy when your record while them as a starter is like 100-250. Sarcasm..

Lol I can't argue that. He's just spent all summer and camp talking about us going big and going against the grain of the rest of the league. I didn't really see him giving up the idea of it 3 games in.

[axl_c_cool]

Last night our season started, I'm proud of the guys, way to battle back. There is still way too much iso ball, not enough flow and movement on offence, when that happens we look bad and teams run out on us. The effort was there though and when we work hard we look like a ball team. Vucevic is the odd man out, seems like a good guy, but as other people have said he doesn't fit. Move Gordon to 4 with Green and go small rotating Ibaka and Biz and we'll be in business. Hopefully we can keep pace with Vucevic then move him in December/January. Really hyped with this team now, it's going to take 6 weeks but when we stablise and get some chemistry and consistency we're going to be dangerous

[Def Swami]

Tobias Harris is the answer at the 3 now?

The same Tobias Harris that everyone was screaming was too slow to play the 3?

The same Tobias Harris who was only scoring 13.7ppg and shooting 31% from 3?

The same Tobias Harris who looks a lot better now because he's being given more freedom and opportunity?

Maybe we should just trade AG so that everyone will start appreciating him again.

Can't I appreciate him at the 4?

[EAS Law]

Thanks for the responses guys. The main thing that I'm trying to put together is whether or not we have anything to move forward with. It sounds like we might, so it's not too awful.

I'm hoping Frank and Rob can figure this thing out.

[OrlandoDream]

Last night our season started, I'm proud of the guys, way to battle back. There is still way too much iso ball, not enough flow and movement on offence, when that happens we look bad and teams run out on us. The effort was there though and when we work hard we look like a ball team. Vucevic is the odd man out, seems like a good guy, but as other people have said he doesn't fit. Move Gordon to 4 with Green and go small rotating Ibaka and Biz and we'll be in business. Hopefully we can keep pace with Vucevic then move him in December/January. Really hyped with this team now, it's going to take 6 weeks but when we stablise and get some chemistry and consistency we're going to be dangerous

Well said. Last night was when guys finally woke up. I loved the effort. As a fan, that's all you can ask for. Even if you lose some of those. Close hard fought games, fans notice and will appreciate it. Those will convert to wins most nights. But yeah the ball movement needs to get better. Start trusting your teammates. Four out of 5 starters have been together for years now, this shouldn't be a problem. Fournier needs to get other players involved in the offense. The ISO play is killing the flow.

[Patrick1978]

I would be pained to watch the game tonight knowing our current state, so can someone summarize what we did well to come back within 6 at the end?

Anything noteworthy that may translate to the next game?

I'm not off the wagon yet, but I certainly have tempered expectations now. If we are going to be a bad team, we need to be a very bad team.

Let's just say that spacing was actually addressed tonight. Plus, either Vucevic shouldn't be starting next game and or Gordon should no longer be starting at the 3 and should be playing more of the 4 if the Magic want to win.

Yes ag is at best at pf.
Let fournier and green the minutes at sf
Let hezonja and wilcox split the minutes at sg
I think sg is the best position for mario.
And wilcox should be getting more minutes as i think he could bring a lot to this Team with his Shooting and he provides spacing.
Same for rudez.
Also the return of meeks will do good to this team

[magicman112]

Last night our season started, I'm proud of the guys, way to battle back. There is still way too much iso ball, not enough flow and movement on offence, when that happens we look bad and teams run out on us. The effort was there though and when we work hard we look like a ball team. Vucevic is the odd man out, seems like a good guy, but as other people have said he doesn't fit. Move Gordon to 4 with Green and go small rotating Ibaka and Biz and we'll be in business. Hopefully we can keep pace with Vucevic then move him in December/January. Really hyped with this team now, it's going to take 6 weeks but when we stablise and get some chemistry and consistency we're going to be dangerous

Well said. Last night was when guys finally woke up. I loved the effort. As a fan, that's all you can ask for. Even if you lose some of those. Close hard fought games, fans notice and will appreciate it. Those will convert to wins most nights. But yeah the ball movement needs to get better. Start trusting your teammates. Four out of 5 starters have been together for years now, this shouldn't be a problem. Fournier needs to get other players involved in the offense. The ISO play is killing the flow.

That right there. I don't mind a loss if they play hard and give themselves a chance at the end. So many new players, new coach, new system just takes time to find out what works and doesn't. But was very pleased to see the effort come back.

[axl_c_cool]

Last night our season started, I'm proud of the guys, way to battle back. There is still way too much iso ball, not enough flow and movement on offence, when that happens we look bad and teams run out on us. The effort was there though and when we work hard we look like a ball team. Vucevic is the odd man out, seems like a good guy, but as other people have said he doesn't fit. Move Gordon to 4 with Green and go small rotating Ibaka and Biz and we'll be in business. Hopefully we can keep pace with Vucevic then move him in December/January. Really hyped with this team now, it's going to take 6 weeks but when we stablise and get some chemistry and consistency we're going to be dangerous

Well said. Last night was when guys finally woke up. I loved the effort. As a fan, that's all you can ask for. Even if you lose some of those. Close hard fought games, fans notice and will appreciate it. Those will convert to wins most nights. But yeah the ball movement needs to get better. Start trusting your teammates. Four out of 5 starters have been together for years now, this shouldn't be a problem. Fournier needs to get other players involved in the offense. The ISO play is killing the flow.

Agree totally, it's on Vogal to get this team playing team basket and sell it because right now we have no 'go to scorer' and I think that's the issue right now and why it's a lot of iso. Look at our personal,

Payton: Pass first drive second PG
Fournier: crafty shooter and slasher
Gordon: Does everything well
Ibaka: Rim protector stretch shooter
Vucevic: Inside scorer


We don't have no out and 'give me the ball, I'm the alpha scorer' kind of player, and that's good! What we need though is a clear motion and some go to's that will get open looks for players. When that happens Fournier and Mario can hit some shots and open up lanes for Payton and Gordon to drive into with hand offs to the big fellas. I'm still adamant that Vucevic need's to be moved for somebody who can go get a basket, look at what DJ did last night when he got hot and it opened up the game for everybody else, if Vucevic could play defence than he'd be so good, but it doesn't work with him in.

[Bensational]

Tobias Harris is the answer at the 3 now?

The same Tobias Harris that everyone was screaming was too slow to play the 3?

The same Tobias Harris who was only scoring 13.7ppg and shooting 31% from 3?

The same Tobias Harris who looks a lot better now because he's being given more freedom and opportunity?

Maybe we should just trade AG so that everyone will start appreciating him again.

Can't I appreciate him at the 4?

You can do whatever you like, but I've yet to see anyone put forth a legit reason for why AG at the 3 isn't working. Everyone just parrots the same thing "AG at the 3 isn't working", or "AG is better as a 4".

I honestly dont think many people understand why he'd be better for one or the other. Especially when a lot of people are now mentioning Tobias as some kind of ironic godsend we traded away, as if they forgot the many discussions that were had about how he couldn't play SF for many reasons.

[Blue_and_Whte]

I would be pained to watch the game tonight knowing our current state, so can someone summarize what we did well to come back within 6 at the end?

Anything noteworthy that may translate to the next game?

I'm not off the wagon yet, but I certainly have tempered expectations now. If we are going to be a bad team, we need to be a very bad team.

We went small and got more spacing and made shots. Our rotations were better because we had more speed on the court.

Honestly, our small lineups were not even our most optimal ones. Gordon didn't get put back in the game soon enough and Mario didn't get enough burn.

People are saying Mario and Evan suck but I think they are a byproduct of poor spacing. Evan made some big shots down the stretch when we went small. Every time Mario has had some space he has knocked down 3's.

Reality is we got the game within 3 with no Vuc on the floor. I am not slamming Vuc, he is a great player, but I just do not think he fits on our team anymore. The Magic have the talent to be a big time small ball team with Gordon at the 4 and Ibaka and Biz at 5. The talent is there now. We get the right SF and this team can play with anybody.

If we had gone small all 4 Qs against Cleveland, I believe we could have won that game. Regardless, the sky is not falling. We just need to hope that Frank and Co see the same thing and make the proper changes now.

I doubt that We didn't come back because Vuc wasn't on the floor we came back because guys made shots, and this one game isn't an indication of anything. Honestly its no different than last season. We routinely would find ourselves down through 3 quarters and try to make a push in the 4th to try and make a comeback, were not good enough to do that. I'm all for benching anyone as long as we win more, because unlike some, I don't have a personal agenda towards any players. The fact is, that we need to play with the sense of urgency we saw in the 4th quarter the whole game. There's no moral victories here.

[PennytoShaq]

I would be pained to watch the game tonight knowing our current state, so can someone summarize what we did well to come back within 6 at the end?

Anything noteworthy that may translate to the next game?

I'm not off the wagon yet, but I certainly have tempered expectations now. If we are going to be a bad team, we need to be a very bad team.

We went small and got more spacing and made shots. Our rotations were better because we had more speed on the court.

Honestly, our small lineups were not even our most optimal ones. Gordon didn't get put back in the game soon enough and Mario didn't get enough burn.

People are saying Mario and Evan suck but I think they are a byproduct of poor spacing. Evan made some big shots down the stretch when we went small. Every time Mario has had some space he has knocked down 3's.

Reality is we got the game within 3 with no Vuc on the floor. I am not slamming Vuc, he is a great player, but I just do not think he fits on our team anymore. The Magic have the talent to be a big time small ball team with Gordon at the 4 and Ibaka and Biz at 5. The talent is there now. We get the right SF and this team can play with anybody.

If we had gone small all 4 Qs against Cleveland, I believe we could have won that game. Regardless, the sky is not falling. We just need to hope that Frank and Co see the same thing and make the proper changes now.

I doubt that We didn't come back because Vuc wasn't on the floor we came back because guys made shots, and this one game isn't an indication of anything. Honestly its no different than last season. We routinely would find ourselves down through 3 quarters and try to make a push in the 4th to try and make a comeback, were not good enough to do that. I'm all for benching anyone as long as we win more, because unlike some, I don't have a personal agenda towards any players. The fact is, that we need to play with the sense of urgency we saw in the 4th quarter the whole game. There's no moral victories here.

Did you watch the game? Sounds like no.

When we went small the spacing immediately improved and guys were making shots that they were missing in the first half.

Additionally Biz set massive screens over and over and freed up far more space than Vuc does. Biz is a monster at setting screens, and those screens give us much better looks at the basket.

He also played great defense which allowed us to stay small. Ibaka came in for him at the 5 and did the same.

There was more to us playing with urgency. If you watch the game you will see clear and obvious signs that when we went small we had far better spacing and our rotations were a lot better on their shooters.

We barely lost the game after getting blown out for 2.5 quarters. We may have still lost, I am not saying we are a better team than CLE, but it would have been far more competitive for 4 qs.

To try and insinuate I have an agenda towards players is not only wrong, it is just childish. He just does not fit what we are trying to do. He is a very good player, but we played better with him off the floor. There was a reason Vogel benched him. Maybe with your logic you think Frank has an agenda against him as well.

[tmorgan]

AG did a good job on LeBron. Tobias would have been murdered. I can't believe people miss Tobias. He's so... meh. Detroit fans like him because they also have Drummond and Jackson and Morris and Johnson.

This is somewhat true. Tobias isn't particularly good defensively, and yeah, of course LeBron murders him. That's why Stanley Johnson got so many minutes guarding LeBron in the playoffs.

Tobias is a very good offensive player, though, and versatile. It helps to have a guy to fill in the gaps in whatever lineup he's playing in, as he can shoot reasonably well from 3, post, iso, pass a little, etc. There's a very good chance he'll be our leading scorer, although we're still talking 20 ppg max here. Too many other guys on Detroit are inefficient offensive players.

[Bergmaniac]

Call me pessimistic, but IMO we came back mostly because the Cavs started mailing it in the second half and got a bit tired in the fourth quarter (their previous game wasn't over by the mid 3rd quarter unlike ours in Detroit). I wouldn't read much into it, frankly. Yeah, it's good that we showed some heart, but most of our issues are still apparent.

[Optimus_Steel]

Call me pessimistic, but IMO we came back mostly because the Cavs started mailing it in the second half and got a bit tired in the fourth quarter (their previous game wasn't over by the mid 3rd quarter unlike ours in Detroit). I wouldn't read much into it, frankly. Yeah, it's good that we showed some heart, but most of our issues are still apparent.

I agree with you. We were down almost 30 at one point and Cle took their foot off the pedal. We played one really good quarter to make it a game and I give the players credit for not quiting this time. However one good quarter hasn't solved our many issues. I want to see this team put together a strong 4 quarters.

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