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Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies

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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#561 » by Funky Tut » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:30 am

Fo-Real wrote:I would give up actual assets to get Jalil Okafor at this point. On a team oozing with young talent, he could be that final piece to put with the young bucks that make us dangerous for years. With Their current glut at C. he can be had.... and that is the only reason a guy of his caliber would be available. Young bucks going forward of Booker/ Okafor is a formidable one two, add Tj, Chriss, Bender, ULIS to that talent pool 3 years down the line.... could be a talented bunch.


Sixers would probably ask for our #1 pick for Okafor.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#562 » by Zelaznyrules » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:37 am

Funky Tut wrote:
Fo-Real wrote:I would give up actual assets to get Jalil Okafor at this point. On a team oozing with young talent, he could be that final piece to put with the young bucks that make us dangerous for years. With Their current glut at C. he can be had.... and that is the only reason a guy of his caliber would be available. Young bucks going forward of Booker/ Okafor is a formidable one two, add Tj, Chriss, Bender, ULIS to that talent pool 3 years down the line.... could be a talented bunch.


Sixers would probably ask for our #1 pick for Okafor.


Well, if it's just Brandon Knight plus our first round pick this season, I wouldn't let that pick scare me away. I have mixed feelings on Okafor but if you really think he's our center of the future then a first round pick this year shouldn't be all that important. Add a solid center to this roster, one good enough to move Chandler to the backup spot, and I think we're a pretty strong candidate to make the playoffs.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#563 » by GimmeDat » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:39 am

I think Okafor for Knight/1st is a really plausible deal.

For Philly, I'd do it in a heartbeat. It gears them up really nicely to add a PG or wing to their young group, and Knight would seem to be a really smart fit for Philly if Simmons really does take on a pseudo-PG role running the offense.

If you think Okafor is worth it, then do it. He's going to be a bona fide 20ppg post scorer for his career, imo. However, I really think whoever coughs up for Okafor is chasing fools gold - he's not a good defender or rim protector, and to a lesser extent, the post game is less critical in todays NBA. You already have 2 young guys that are scorers first and foremost anyway. It feels like a case of grass is greener when comparing him to Len (I haven't seen heaps of Len but I feel they're both flawed in their own ways).

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents while lurking your board :)
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#564 » by LacosteM » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:13 am

I'm not to keen on Okafor deal. He's ball dominant big and a weak rim protector. What Suns need is someone like (Adams, Bogut, RoLo, Capela, ..) - a low usage center, whose job is to rebound, protect the rim and finish strong out of the p&r. Basically what Len was suppose to become. TC is still managing to do it suprisingly well, but team can't depend on him to constantly play 35+ mins per game. I'm not sure if Okafor could be productive on a team where he's not first option on offense, as he cannot contribute much if he's not getting his post touches.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#565 » by LacosteM » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:40 am

Thespianoid wrote:
batsmasher wrote:You know what is absolutely nuts? Bender has looked more NBA ready in his minutes than Marquese. No one would have thought that was possible a week ago.


not sure Watson/coaches realize this though. Pretty sure they'll continue to give more minutes/opportunity to Chriss.

There's a subtle but important difference between bringing someone along slowly and limiting a player you believe isn't ready to contribute. Bender's IQ on both ends has always been NBA-ready - we've seen the contributions defensively, just needs consistent opportunity to showcase his skillset on offense and not relegated to corner-standing duty.

Basically comes down to this: if a player is ready to contribute in specific areas, what rationale is there to limit those potential contributions?


I hope Watson realizes this. Bender looks like he's already ready to contribute on the defensive end, whereas Chriss looked rather lost so far. Also it was nice to see him gather some confidence by knocking down a couple of 3's in his debut. I don't think Bender should be brought up slowly just for the sake for it, if he's ready to make contributions than he should play.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#566 » by jcsunsfan » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:52 am

NavLDO wrote:
bigfoot wrote:Len should get a max of 10 games in the bench unit. If he doesn't changes things up by then he is a lost cause and it will be time to give his minutes to Williams or Chriss.


Ah, but then we might win a few more games and keep us from that top 3 pick we keep seeking! Bad plan. Keep starting Len until at least the trade deadline, then include him in as a 'throw-away' piece to make the salaries match.

Seriously, I have no idea what happened between the end of last year, to the beginning of this year, to cause him to lose so much 'game'. I was Len's last 'bastion of hope' within the fan-base here, but sadly, he's losing me as well, and rather quickly, I might add. But I'd seriously give him more than 10 games. I'm good with 20-25 games, and if he hasn't improved significantly, we just need to, again, add him as filler in a trade pkg this season.

I say this, because there is at least one GM/HC out there who will value Len an think they can coach him up, and while he may not even be worth a 2nd Rd pick right now to most, I guarantee there is a team that could use him, and may actually save his career. And I'd rather get SOMETHING for him, than get nothing at all at the end of the season.

Nah. I would rather ride the Len experiment out to the end. With all the picks the Suns have in the next few years, a second rounder would not be a help. He is playing poorly. He always seems to do so against big physical centers like Adams and Gobert. Cut his playing time some. Let him really focus on doing well in shorter spurts.


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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#567 » by Zelaznyrules » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:10 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:Nah. I would rather ride the Len experiment out to the end. With all the picks the Suns have in the next few years, a second rounder would not be a help. He is playing poorly. He always seems to do so against big physical centers like Adams and Gobert. Cut his playing time some. Let him really focus on doing well in shorter spurts.


Has there (recently) been a type of center that Len does well against? He looked horrible against Gobert and Adams but he played poorly all preseason and he faced off against more than Gobert then. Personally, I'd bench him completely if we're ready to give up on him but until then, I think I'd use him as much as possible. Some of this may well be confidence, cutting his minutes is likely to backfire if that's the case. He's been a huge disappointment but....I can't stop clinging to a little bit of hope given that he has shown promise in the past. It's in there somewhere.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#568 » by dremill24 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:50 pm

Zelaznyrules wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:Nah. I would rather ride the Len experiment out to the end. With all the picks the Suns have in the next few years, a second rounder would not be a help. He is playing poorly. He always seems to do so against big physical centers like Adams and Gobert. Cut his playing time some. Let him really focus on doing well in shorter spurts.


Has there (recently) been a type of center that Len does well against? He looked horrible against Gobert and Adams but he played poorly all preseason and he faced off against more than Gobert then. Personally, I'd bench him completely if we're ready to give up on him but until then, I think I'd use him as much as possible. Some of this may well be confidence, cutting his minutes is likely to backfire if that's the case. He's been a huge disappointment but....I can't stop clinging to a little bit of hope given that he has shown promise in the past. It's in there somewhere.


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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#569 » by Zelaznyrules » Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:22 pm

dremill24 wrote:
Zelaznyrules wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:Nah. I would rather ride the Len experiment out to the end. With all the picks the Suns have in the next few years, a second rounder would not be a help. He is playing poorly. He always seems to do so against big physical centers like Adams and Gobert. Cut his playing time some. Let him really focus on doing well in shorter spurts.


Has there (recently) been a type of center that Len does well against? He looked horrible against Gobert and Adams but he played poorly all preseason and he faced off against more than Gobert then. Personally, I'd bench him completely if we're ready to give up on him but until then, I think I'd use him as much as possible. Some of this may well be confidence, cutting his minutes is likely to backfire if that's the case. He's been a huge disappointment but....I can't stop clinging to a little bit of hope given that he has shown promise in the past. It's in there somewhere.


Vucevic


The last time they faced off was 7 or 8 months ago and not quite what I meant by "recently". Len, previously, had played well against several centers but yes, he probably had his best performances against Vucevic. But he's been bad on a whole new level starting late last season and progressively worsening through this preseason. I'm worried mostly about a small sample size of 2 regular season games and 6 in preseason but it doesn't bode well for him or us right now and I don't think it can be laid at the feet of any one type of big man. Something is going on and it needs to get fixed quickly.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#570 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:21 pm

nashrambler13 wrote:Yeah I realize I am probably somewhat of a Booker homer already, but it's good to see maybe the best objective analyst saying he looked "so good" in a game where he shot so poorly. It's possible that I am just always looking for the positives, but the way I look at it is this:

Booker got to his spots tonight. Every time he missed one of those wide-open threes, or one of those leaners in the lane, or one of those drives against a big I was legitimately shocked. He can and does hit those shots most nights, even if they look like tough/bad shots after a miss. Also, I can't really point at the "1 assist/25 shots ratio" as there were at least 4 passes from Book to WIDE OPEN 3 point shooters (one to BK, one to Dudley, and two to Bled) that got bricked. It's not like he wasn't making the right passes or looking off open shooters. He was choosing to get to his spots and made the "right" decision on most plays.

And look (and this could sound very homer-y, and for that I apologize): we want Booker to be a superstar. A good amount of us think he could be a superstar type player. The reality of it is that Book played like a superstar would last night. Not in statistical performance, but in mentality. Not in makes, but in the type of shots he was getting. And, again, I know that sounds a little over the top, and I do think he could've played better, but the dude is 19. He's going to have nights where the shots don't fall.


I believe that Booker is an All-Star in the making. I am not sure about him becoming a "superstar," mainly because I feel that that term is thrown around so loosely, and overused so greatly, that it has basically lost its meaning. To me, current "superstars" would be LeBron James, Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, James Harden, and I guess now Kawhi Leonard and Anthony Davis. (There are some others, such as Blake Griffin, Damian Lillard, and Kyrie Irving, who may possess "superstar" talent yet need to demonstrate greater consistency in my view, and Dwyane Wade was a "superstar" in his prime.) I do not know if Booker will end up in that class of player, but he does profile as an All-Star shooting guard. He is skilled and savvy for his age and very smooth in his actions. His body control is terrific, his footwork is pretty good, he possesses sufficient quickness, he can make plays with the basketball, and he is both poised and confident. So, as I indicated, I believe that Booker is a major prospect and the best player that the Suns have drafted since Amar'e Stoudemire in 2002.

That said, while I understand that you were talking about certain kinds of shots, I just wanted to note that in 51 starts last season, Booker shot .402 from the field and .312 on threes. During five preseason games this year, he shot .455 from the field (respectable) yet just .316 on threes in a significant volume (3.8 attempts per contest). Add his first two regular season games, and Booker has shot .447 from the field and .267 (8-30) on threes this October, entering today's game at Golden State. So to this point in his career, Devin Booker has not been an efficient scorer in a starting role—he has not "usually" hit a strong percentage of his shots.

Granted, I believe that this situation will change, perhaps very quickly. After all, Booker just turns twenty years old today. I remember when a second-year Joe Johnson was twenty-one with the Suns, in '02-'03, and he shot just .408 on two-point field goal attempts and .397 from the field overall. But one could see that he constituted a legitimate prospect, and he started blossoming soon thereafter.

Booker should absolutely become more efficient over time. To this point, though, he is still learning the finer points of shot selection and he still forces too many shots—not in a gratuitous manner, but on a more subtle level. Booker does not attempt a lot of "bad shots," but he settles for too many mediocre ones. Again, this weakness is mainly just a product of his extreme youth, and I certainly feel that he possesses the basketball intelligence to become increasingly discerning with greater experience.

He seemed to fare better in the overtime period in Oklahoma City when the Suns gave Booker more high pick-and-roll opportunities in the middle of the floor, thus granting him more space and a greater opportunity to choose directions. He is more of a ball-handler than the somewhat superficial Klay Thompson analogies would indicate, and Booker may be at his best in such situations. The question is that with Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight on the roster, how many high pick-and-roll opportunities in the middle of the floor can and should the Suns give Booker for now?
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#571 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:47 pm

KLEON wrote:I think Jason Kidd is a prophet because I remember Knight was playing at an all star level before he got injured and then got traded to the Suns. Jason Kidd is a GENIUS


The same Jason Kidd who said that Brandon Knight reminded him of Kevin Johnson, when two players almost could not possibly be more dissimilar?

Kidd was only a genius if he was lying in order to try and inflate Knight's trade value and tempt the Suns ...

The truth of the matter is that Kidd's reputation as some offensive savant has always been ridiculously overblown or utterly unwarranted. For the most part, he did not run efficient offenses in his prime as a player, and he has not run them thus far as a coach. When I watched the Suns play at Milwaukee in January 2015, I was shocked by the notion that Brandon Knight was a "point guard." He was certainly quick and athletic, and he could certainly score in the open floor, but a "point guard"? I did not see it at all.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201501060MIL.html

(In that game, despite playing and scoring well overall, he attempted twice as many threes as he passed for assists.)

So one did not need to be a genius to understand that Brandon Knight, whatever his talents may have been, was not the man to lead an offense.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#572 » by AtheJ415 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:11 am

m1chal wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote: Well, I'd agree but he traded him for Michael Carter-Williams (worse) and demanded Tyler Ennis (out of league).


Isn't Tyler Ennis on the Rockets?


He is. They picked him up after he got cut. Thought they had waived him as well.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#573 » by GMATCallahan » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:04 am

LukasBMW wrote:My takeaways:

Positive:
- We played way better.
- TJ Warren is the real deal folks. 30 points and 9 boards on 13-18 shooting. That's absurd!
- Booker missed so many shots he usually makes, but he will be fine. I love love his confidence and swagger.
- Bledsoe and Chandler are good players. If we have any playoff hopes, it requires both of them stay healthy. That may be a tall order. Can we please get them some help? They won't last if we have to play them 40 minutes a game!

Negative:
-Knight with 19 and 6 on 7/18 shooting. From the stat line, it MIGHT seem like he had a good game. If you watched, you know differently. He cannot make any passes in traffic nor can he find any open players. His other stat line says it all -18 in the +/-
-Len with -19 in +/-. Also had 3 points and 4 fouls. What a waste. He seriously played better as a rookie!
-Imagine...JUST IMAGINE how good we would be with a REAL center!!! We'd win games! Can we get Tyson some help please?
-Knight should not start OR FINISH games. He really shouldn't finish games because he CHOKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSS!


Misc:
-Westbook is a beast. He might be the best small player EVER. Is there a PG that could ever do what he does? He carries the Thunder. Taking 44 shots is comical, but 51/13/10 is INSANE!


Westbrook is an amazing athlete and probably the best guard ever at reaching the front of the rim on the fast break. His combination of explosiveness with the ball, long strides, and leaping ability is historically unique, and he plays with the mentality of an animal. Actually, he is analogous to the Velociraptors from the Jurassic Park movies. (Never mind that I deem Jurassic World insulting and that the species of dinosaur incorrectly labeled "Velociraptor" in the films is actually called "Deinonychus.")

http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/typesofdinosaurs/ss/10-Facts-About-Deinonychus.htm#step7

But therein lies the rub. A point guard ultimately needs to be a human being, not a dinosaur, in terms of how he plays. A point guard (even if he is not a traditional point guard, even if he is not a true point guard) should never attempt 44 field goals in a game—never. At the press conference following the triple-overtime Game Three of the 1993 NBA Finals, Charles Barkley—flanked by Dan Majerle and Kevin Johnson—scanned the box score printout and noticed that Michael Jordan had attempted 43 field goals. (Jordan converted 19, scoring 44 points.) Exclaimed Barkley, who had played that game with his painful right elbow heavily padded (he had crashed to the floor in the previous contest):

Michael Jordan shot the ball forty-three times! Damn. Damn! He's gonna be icing his elbow, too.


(Kevin Johnson, who had played the first 62 minutes and 40 seconds of the 63-minute game without a break and had guarded Jordan for most of that 43-FGA assault, could merely muster a mild smile. I think that he was too tired to do anything else.)

Of course, Jordan was a shooting guard and he attempted those 43 field goals over 57 minutes of NBA Finals action. A point guard (even if he is a "combo guard" or whatever), on the other hand, should possess some sense of discernment and a conscience. Russell Westbrook, however, has no conscience on the basketball floor. That absence of conscience is one of his greatest strengths, but it is also his greatest weakness. He never hesitates to try and devour the defense—and he often does so, just like Deinonychus in dinosaur times. But Westbrook is also, in effect, a glutton. His voracious appetite still leads to too many wild shots (mainly threes), dubious shot selection, bad plays, and overall inefficiency. Keep in mind that over his last five postseasons, Westbrook has shot .414 from the field, .445 on two-point field goal attempts, .294 on threes (in 4.3 attempts per game), and posted an assists-to-turnover ratio of barely 2.0:1.0 (2.02:1.00). Despite vastly superior scoring talent, those shooting statistics are not all that different from what Jason Kidd shot in the playoffs from 1997-2009, as Kidd over that time shot .399 from the field, .443 on two-point field goal attempts, and .314 on threes (in 4.2 attempts per game) during the postseason. Granted, Westbrook enjoys something of an equalizer in the sense that he is a high-volume free throw shooter who buries his free throws, thus salvaging his True Shooting Percentage (his scoring efficiency) to some extent, but Kidd was much more efficient as a playmaker.

Earlier during last season's playoffs, I stated that I doubted that a team led or co-led by Russell Westbrook would ever win a championship. bwgood wondered why I would say that, but in the end, while Westbrook averaged a spectacular 26.7 points, 11.3 assists, 7.0 rebounds, 3.7 steals, and 8.7 free throw attempts (shooting .820) during the 2016 Western Conference Finals versus Golden State, he also shot .395 from the field in 22.4 attempts per game, including .317 on threes in 5.9 attempts per game. In the last two games, when the Thunder blew major opportunities, he shot 2-11 on threes. When you throw away possessions in the playoffs due to a reckless style and a lack of discipline, you almost always come up short.

Given his ability to reach the free throw line and get wherever he wants on the court, Russell Westbrook should rarely attempt a three. Yes, he hit two in his third-quarter explosion against the Suns, but overall, he shot 2-10 on threes. Remove his three-point attempts and Westbrook would have shot 15-34 from the field—still a very high volume of field goal attempts for a point guard (especially in a regular season game) and still not a great percentage, but much more palatable. Westbrook could have used those other possessions, meanwhile, to move the ball more (beyond assists), get some other guys some more touches, diversify the offense a little, and so forth. But again, Westbrook has no conscience—his mental strength is his weakness and his weakness is his strength.

And, sure, without Kevin Durant, the Thunder does not seem to possess much of an offense right now beyond Westbrook attacking on the break, rocketing to the basket off the high pick-and-roll, or occasionally isolating on the block, the baseline, or the wing (or else once in awhile curling off a down-screen that might then turn into a pick-and-roll/pop). Some of the responsibility for Westbrook's 44 field goal attempts must thus go to the coaching staff, but clearly, this player lacks self-discipline.

When Barkley still played for Philadelphia, Phil Jackson once told the Chicago Tribune that he deemed Sir Charles "a great, great player, maybe unstoppable. But he's got no discipline, none. You can't win with a player like that." To me, those words similarly fit Westbrook. Now, that is not to say that Oklahoma City should look to trade him or anything; the Thunder is blessed to have Westbrook and blessed that he wanted to remain with the franchise. But just as Phoenix's failure to win a championship with Barkley should be unsurprising given Jackson's comments, Westbrook presents a similar paradox. For that reason, I would take a number of "small guards" in NBA history over Westbrook, including—to cite a current player—Chris Paul, even though Paul has never played in a conference finals in eleven NBA seasons and even though Paul cannot change directions nearly as dynamically as Westbrook, often leading to more stagnant and predictable playoff offenses. Even so, discipline, discernment, and a conscience are so important in the postseason, especially for a point guard. Chris Paul is a human being; Russell Westbrook is Deinonychus. Deinonychus is scarier, but in the end, you still need that human mind and human ethic.

I will say that Westbrook may constitute the most spectacular "small guard" in history, although I would actually consider Westbrook a mid-sized guard. He is 6'3" in actual height, the same actual height as Dwyane Wade, and his length, strength, and leaping ability allow him to play even bigger, so to speak. (For a point of comparison, Steve Nash's listed height was 6'3", but I doubt that he is any taller than 6'1" and 1/2 without sneakers. Nash himself once said that he was just 6'2", and he may have only reached that height in shoes.) Make no mistake, Russell Westbrook is a relatively big point guard, and he posted up all three of Phoenix's point guards at one time or another. Regardless, I have never seen him more spectacular and unstoppable than Friday night, especially in the open floor. Somehow, as he nears his twenty-eighth birthday, he seems more explosive than ever.

Nothing may have been able to stop Westbrook on Friday night, but I do question what the Suns were doing defensively. In pick-and-roll situations, the Phoenix big man (usually Chandler or Len) defending the screener seemed to just be laying way back, as if to tempt Westbrook into shooting jump shots. Indeed, the term "soft trap" would seem to be too generous. The problem is that when you allow Westbrook to build up a head of steam (whether in the open floor or in pick-and-rolls), he generates so much thrust that you are pretty much at his mercy. Instead, the defense has to pressure Westbrook sooner and give him less space so that he cannot build up that head of steam and fully ignite (or else find plenty of space for a mid-range jumper around the foul line or see the court very clearly to find shooters or cutters). Yes, if you blitz Westbrook or use a high, hard trap in pick-and-rolls, the danger is that the big man will get too high on the floor, that Westbrook will turn the corner or split the trap, and then your big man is out of the picture and cannot recover.

(Partly for this reason, what would help is to have length, height, and shot-blocking beyond the center, for instance a forward tandem of Chriss and Bender, something that we will not see much of any time soon yet would not be implausible at some point in the future. Two decades ago, the NBA featured these sorts of "tall" lineups much more often. In '97-'98, for example, San Antonio often started three centers—Will Perdue, David Robinson, and Tim Duncan. By default, Duncan became the "small forward," and he actually spent much of the Spurs' 1998 playoff opener at Phoenix defending Jason Kidd. And when Houston won its first championship in 1994, the Rockets' starting small forward was Robert Horry, an extremely athletic 6'9" shot-blocker with long arms. The potential drawback to such lineups, of course, tends to be a lack of floor spacing, but Horry developed three-point range that season. Then in February 1995, Houston traded its starting power forward, interior stalwart Otis Thorpe, to Portland for Clyde Drexler, and for the rest of the year, the Rockets featured a three-point shooting finesse "power forward," either Horry or Pete Chilcutt, hence prefiguring the types of spatial schemes that dominate the NBA nowadays. Since both Bender and Chriss possess potential as three-point shooters, the Suns might one day be able to spread the floor without sacrificing height, length, and shot-blocking—at least that is the hope.)

But even with the risk of Westbrook turning the corner or splitting the trap, the Suns still needed to pressure him sooner rather than allowing him to accelerate in space. During the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals between Houston and Phoenix (especially in Game Seven), NBC's Steve "Snapper" Jones (a former ABA guard) would talk about how Kenny Smith needed to go to Kevin Johnson when the latter had the ball, meaning that he needed to pick Johnson up sooner—higher on the floor—and then try to direct him one way or the other. If Johnson came at him with a head of steam and got Smith back-peddling, the Suns' point guard could choose his own direction. Bill Walton, also working the game, agreed with Jones, remembering back to their playing days in the 1970s when Pete Maravich would be unstoppable after he got a head of steam going. Likewise, in his 1995 autobiography, Living the Dream (page 282), Hakeem Olajuwon states that during Game Seven, he told Smith and Sam Cassell, Houston's other point guard, "Meet him [Johnson] way out front, don't just let him come."

Again, the risk against an explosive point guard like that is that you will be burned too far up the floor and then your whole defense will collapse. But in pick-and-roll situations, the Suns should have at least thrown some harder traps at Westbrook or sent a help defender to the play sooner. Instead, Phoenix gave him the space to resupply his jet fuel constantly.

Worse, the Suns did not seem to make any notable strategic adjustments as the game went on. In recent months, I have been studying a Phoenix game at Detroit from March 1996 that I will mention in another thread if I get back to it. The Pistons back then possessed a lot of outside shooting and could really stretch the floor, especially by the standards of the time. Early on, the Suns dealt with Detroit's pick-and-rolls by trapping the ball-handler and sending a help defender from the weak side to cover the rolling screener (or else they would send the help defender to trap ball-handler, while the big man defender would never leave the screener in the first place). The Pistons would then swing the ball out to an open shooter, and because Detroit possessed so much shooting or perimeter skill and could space the floor so widely, the Suns could not get out to the uncovered shooter in time. But before the first quarter was even over, Phoenix had changed its defensive scheme entirely. Instead of trapping, helping, and rotating, the Suns started switching to prevent an opening in the first place. Naturally, this scheme was not perfect and would create some mismatches, but it worked much better overall, and mismatches in the post could be more easily attacked with double teams and shorter defensive rotations.

Unfortunately, I did not see the Suns attempt to alter their strategy in any significant way last night. Instead, they kept giving Westbrook the space to do what he does best off the high pick-and-roll. Perhaps that failure was a product of a thirty-seven-year old head coach in his first full season, as opposed to a sixty-four-year old Cotton Fitzsimmons back in 1996. Or maybe the Suns thought that since they were leading for most of the game, they did not need to adjust their strategy, as Westbrook supposedly could not beat them by himself. But as Kenny Smith stated on TNT on Thursday night, in pick-and-roll defense, the big man defending the screener has to remain attached, or connected, to either the screener or the ball-handler. He cannot just float around in what Smith called "no man's land," yet that seemed to be the Suns strategy against Westbrook: just hang back and vaguely try to discourage him. Well, with his explosiveness and long strides, Westbrook will eat up that space very quickly, change directions as he sees fit, and elevate with supreme power.

By the way, I did not feel that Len played that badly, especially in the second half, and unadjusted Plus-Minus figures are unreliable, particularly for a given game. That said, arguing with a 1-4 FG, 0-point, 0-rebound, 4-foul performance in 14 minutes is difficult. Still, the Suns' defensive scheme may have placed him in disadvantageous positions for the reasons that I mentioned.

I also do not understand Watson's lineup for Oklahoma City's final live-ball offensive possession, after Westbrook called timeout with Phoenix leading by one. Instead of going with a small lineup, Watson should have opted for more size and length. Feature a front-court of Chandler, Chriss, and Warren or Dudley, and bench one of the three guards. Moreover, I would have assigned Bledsoe to Westbrook rather than Knight. Yes, Bledsoe had five fouls, but there were less than twenty seconds remaining and the Suns possessed the lead. With one stop, Phoenix probably would have won the game. Moreover, Bledsoe had been ineffective offensively in the overtime session (and for much of the game, really), so losing him would not have been that meaningful at that point, especially since both Booker and Knight could create with the ball. And Knight has ranked as one of the lesser defensive point guards in the NBA, rendering him a less than ideal choice to defend Westbrook one-on-one with the game on the line.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/1

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/1

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2014/sort/DRPM/position/1

As for the shots that Booker "usually makes," see my earlier comments a couple of posts ago.

I basically agree about Knight, but shooting 7-18 from the field and 1-6 on threes, with 2 assists against 5 turnovers, does not indicate a good game regardless of his 19 points. Knight was actually playing well for awhile, but then he started struggling—he is a streaky player who needs to be pulled once he loses his rhythm and confidence. Indeed, he tends to look either really good or really bad, with little in between, and he presumes and prejudges too many plays, hence accounting for his awful assists-to-turnover numbers in general. Bledsoe is similar in that regard, only not quite as bad.

Warren certainly seems to have worked on his ball handling and his shooting ability off the dribble; he is a much more complete offensive player now, especially compared to when he first entered the NBA two years ago.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#574 » by GMATCallahan » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:38 am

LacosteM wrote:I hope Watson realizes this. Bender looks like he's already ready to contribute on the defensive end, whereas Chriss looked rather lost so far. Also it was nice to see him gather some confidence by knocking down a couple of 3's in his debut. I don't think Bender should be brought up slowly just for the sake for it, if he's ready to make contributions than he should play.


Bender is a pretty reckless offensive player right now, though. He makes bad decisions, tries to do much, chucks threes, and fancies himself as his idol, Toni Kukoc, despite not nearly possessing the same level of savvy and ball handling at the moment. Remember, we are talking about an eighteen-year old who could barely get off the bench in Israel last season; I doubt that he is ready to make major contributions to winning basketball in the NBA.

Now, if the Suns want to play him for the sake of developing him, that is another story.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#575 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:14 am

Can we also talk about how a 19 year old Chriss is still able to shoot 50% from the field but Len is still somehow shooting 0.35FG%? Not to say it would stay at this level but it kind of goes to show the kid has good instincts for finding the easy shot.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#576 » by NavLDO » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:24 pm

Zelaznyrules wrote:
bigfoot wrote:Very simply Len needs to focus solely on rebounding and defense. His offensive game is pathetic yet somehow he is the second option behind Knight for the bench unit. I'd rather see Chriss and Bender get those opportunties on offense because it is clear Len does not have a post game, face up game, or ball handling abilities. He has little fluidity in his movements. And this is why we can not count the draft eggs before they hatch. Len looks like one of those major busts as a high draft pick. I would much rather have three mid-range draft picks than one top 5.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. And often times, you know it at the time and not just hindsight. The year we drafted Len, for example, even prior to the draft it was clear we'd be better off with 2 first round picks outside of the lottery than the number 1 pick. But that was highly unusual. Last year I wouldn't have traded the number 1 pick for 3 picks in the top 10 and now, viewing after the fact, I still wouldn't.

JMO but I don't think Len really qualifies as a major bust as it was a known weak draft and there really weren't huge expectations for any of them as a result. He'll likely be a bust but he's just 23 and there's still a small chance that he will eventually play to his draft position and a good chance that he'll improve enough to make someone's rotation. And even if he doesn't, it's hard to call anyone else a major bust when you have Anthony Bennett going number 1 in that same draft.


I agree. That draft class was just really odd. Even the 'can't miss prospects' of Noel and McLemore haven't been 'great', and certainly are not the 2 best players to come out of that draft. Here's something for you. 6 of the best Lotto Picks that year against 6 non-Lotto picks that year...

Lotto: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&hint=Otto+Porter&player_id1_select=Otto+Porter&player_id1=porteot01&hint=Victor+Oladipo&player_id2_select=Victor+Oladipo&player_id2=oladivi01&hint=Steven+Adams&player_id3_select=Steven+Adams&player_id3=adamsst01&hint=Kelly+Olynyk&player_id4_select=Kelly+Olynyk&player_id4=olynyke01&hint=Nerlens+Noel&player_id5_select=Nerlens+Noel&y5=2016&player_id5=noelne01&hint=Ben+McLemore&player_id6_select=Ben+McLemore&player_id6=mclembe01

Non-Lotto: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&hint=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&player_id1_select=Giannis+Antetokounmpo&y1=2017&player_id1=antetgi01&hint=Dennis+Schroder&player_id2_select=Dennis+Schroder&y2=2017&player_id2=schrode01&hint=Gorgui+Dieng&player_id3_select=Gorgui+Dieng&y3=2017&player_id3=dienggo01&hint=Mason+Plumlee&player_id4_select=Mason+Plumlee&y4=2017&player_id4=plumlma01&hint=Rudy+Gobert&player_id5_select=Rudy+Gobert&y5=2017&player_id5=goberru01&hint=Isaiah+Canaan&player_id6_select=Isaiah+Canaan&y6=2017&player_id6=canaais01

Now...which group would you rather have??? Shouldn't even be a tough decision, yet, it is. The entire Lotto class that year has greatly 'underwhelmed' compared to most other recent years. So while Len is a disappointment, I agree that when you have Bennett in the same class, Len looks like a rock star.

I know stats can be deceiving, but really, look at the 6 'bigs' drafted in the lotto, and scroll don to the per36 stats. Len leads the group in TRBs and he's 2nd in Blks. If he would just stay 'home', and by god, re-learn how to get 'nasty' down low...basically, show some of what he showed earlier in his career before he became the 'jump-shot king', nd get back his confidence, yes, I think he could be a serviceable 'big' in this league, but sadly, I think his time here with us is done, which is why I'm all for trading him before the deadline for SOMETHING...or at least be in pkg that nets us something positive. Because right now, he's not getting anywhere near 8 figures per; he's playing like a $6-8M backup right now.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&hint=Alex+Len&player_id1_select=Alex+Len&y1=2017&player_id1=lenal01&hint=Nerlens+Noel&player_id2_select=Nerlens+Noel&y2=2016&player_id2=noelne01&hint=Anthony+Bennett&player_id3_select=Anthony+Bennett&y3=2017&player_id3=bennean01&hint=Steven+Adams&player_id4_select=Steven+Adams&y4=2017&player_id4=adamsst01&hint=Kelly+Olynyk&player_id5_select=Kelly+Olynyk&y5=2016&player_id5=olynyke01&hint=Cody+Zeller&player_id6_select=Cody+Zeller&y6=2017&player_id6=zelleco01
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#577 » by NavLDO » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:30 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
bigfoot wrote:Len should get a max of 10 games in the bench unit. If he doesn't changes things up by then he is a lost cause and it will be time to give his minutes to Williams or Chriss.


Ah, but then we might win a few more games and keep us from that top 3 pick we keep seeking! Bad plan. Keep starting Len until at least the trade deadline, then include him in as a 'throw-away' piece to make the salaries match.

Seriously, I have no idea what happened between the end of last year, to the beginning of this year, to cause him to lose so much 'game'. I was Len's last 'bastion of hope' within the fan-base here, but sadly, he's losing me as well, and rather quickly, I might add. But I'd seriously give him more than 10 games. I'm good with 20-25 games, and if he hasn't improved significantly, we just need to, again, add him as filler in a trade pkg this season.

I say this, because there is at least one GM/HC out there who will value Len an think they can coach him up, and while he may not even be worth a 2nd Rd pick right now to most, I guarantee there is a team that could use him, and may actually save his career. And I'd rather get SOMETHING for him, than get nothing at all at the end of the season.

Nah. I would rather ride the Len experiment out to the end. With all the picks the Suns have in the next few years, a second rounder would not be a help. He is playing poorly. He always seems to do so against big physical centers like Adams and Gobert. Cut his playing time some. Let him really focus on doing well in shorter spurts.


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I "+1'd" you for your opinion, but the problem is, Len SUCKS in small spurts. Last year he showed that when he played 30+ mpg, he could be a 15/10 Center, even if he shot 40% to get there. But yes, if Len could, and would, accept a Bench role and play serviceably in that role, that would be awesome; problem is, he's even worse in short spurts than he I when he plays starter minutes.
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Re: Game 2: The Rise of the Rookies 

Post#578 » by OmegaAtrocity » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:47 pm

I watched the second half of Thunder-Suns game on league pass the other night and I wanted pop in and mention how impressed I was with Marquiss Chriss. That trap he threw on Westbrook in overtime is one of the most impressive things I've ever seen from a rookie.

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