3rd time's a charm?: Cle vs Orl 10/29

[VFX]

Tobias Harris is the answer at the 3 now?

The same Tobias Harris that everyone was screaming was too slow to play the 3?

The same Tobias Harris who was only scoring 13.7ppg and shooting 31% from 3?

The same Tobias Harris who looks a lot better now because he's being given more freedom and opportunity?

Maybe we should just trade AG so that everyone will start appreciating him again.

Can't I appreciate him at the 4?

You can do whatever you like, but I've yet to see anyone put forth a legit reason for why AG at the 3 isn't working. Everyone just parrots the same thing "AG at the 3 isn't working", or "AG is better as a 4".

I honestly dont think many people understand why he'd be better for one or the other. Especially when a lot of people are now mentioning Tobias as some kind of ironic godsend we traded away, as if they forgot the many discussions that were had about how he couldn't play SF for many reasons.

Spacing and personnel.

He's playing the 3 because he has to play the 3. If he plays the 4 we have two centers that could potentially start- on the bench.

Or Ibaka - which is arguably the best player on this team based on previous experience.

We have no spacing if we have Evan as our only legitimate 3pt shooter. You saw what happened last night when we went small and opened up the floor with perimeter threats.

[JF5]

Tobias Harris is the answer at the 3 now?

The same Tobias Harris that everyone was screaming was too slow to play the 3?

The same Tobias Harris who was only scoring 13.7ppg and shooting 31% from 3?

The same Tobias Harris who looks a lot better now because he's being given more freedom and opportunity?

Maybe we should just trade AG so that everyone will start appreciating him again.

Can't I appreciate him at the 4?

You can do whatever you like, but I've yet to see anyone put forth a legit reason for why AG at the 3 isn't working. Everyone just parrots the same thing "AG at the 3 isn't working", or "AG is better as a 4".

I honestly dont think many people understand why he'd be better for one or the other. Especially when a lot of people are now mentioning Tobias as some kind of ironic godsend we traded away, as if they forgot the many discussions that were had about how he couldn't play SF for many reasons.

Maybe because the starters have lost by 20+ points in every single game so far and have not put up much of a fight in the first few games?

If these games were really more competitive and the team wasn't struggling, I promise you Ben not that many people would be so quick to push Gordon back to the 4 position (Which he looked a better by the way) or potentially to the bench.

[MagicStarwipe]

Haven't all 3 games gotten out of hand the moment we went to our bench?

[Furinkazan]

Haven't all 3 games gotten out of hand the moment we went to our bench?

you may be on to something here as I checked play by play

but to be truth both starters and bench suck bigtime (just happens bench sux a lil bit more)

[Bensational]

Can't I appreciate him at the 4?

You can do whatever you like, but I've yet to see anyone put forth a legit reason for why AG at the 3 isn't working. Everyone just parrots the same thing "AG at the 3 isn't working", or "AG is better as a 4".

I honestly dont think many people understand why he'd be better for one or the other. Especially when a lot of people are now mentioning Tobias as some kind of ironic godsend we traded away, as if they forgot the many discussions that were had about how he couldn't play SF for many reasons.

Spacing and personnel.

He's playing the 3 because he has to play the 3. If he plays the 4 we have two centers that could potentially start- on the bench.

Or Ibaka - which is arguably the best player on this team based on previous experience.

We have no spacing if we have Evan as our only legitimate 3pt shooter. You saw what happened last night when we went small and opened up the floor with perimeter threats.

The spacing problem for the starting 5 is the result of Ibaka and Vuc crowding the paint with a high-low game. It wasn't the 'small' game which opened things up, it was the fact that Green wasn't camped in the paint (or within 10-15ft of the rim) the way Ibaka is on a lot of plays, and Biyombo sets screens to open things up for his teammates unilke Vuc. Cleveland's defense had some very lazy lapses in that 4th quarter (which is no surprise with a 20 point lead), but if you go back and look at the first quarter you'll see that LeBron stuck with AG on the perimeter as much as he stuck with Green in the 4th.

Also, we went small in the 2nd quarter, too, with our bench unit. That's when Cleveland got the 20 point lead to begin with. So going small doesn't always play out the way it did in the 4th.

AG is playing the 3 because he can play the 3. If he couldn't, Vogel wouldn't have him on the court.

I took the time to pull screen shots from the game to show this, and put them up in this thread. Feel free to add your input or take on things there, too

[Bensational]

Can't I appreciate him at the 4?

You can do whatever you like, but I've yet to see anyone put forth a legit reason for why AG at the 3 isn't working. Everyone just parrots the same thing "AG at the 3 isn't working", or "AG is better as a 4".

I honestly dont think many people understand why he'd be better for one or the other. Especially when a lot of people are now mentioning Tobias as some kind of ironic godsend we traded away, as if they forgot the many discussions that were had about how he couldn't play SF for many reasons.

Maybe because the starters have lost by 20+ points in every single game so far and have not put up much of a fight in the first few games?

If these games were really more competitive and the team wasn't struggling, I promise you Ben not that many people would be so quick to push Gordon back to the 4 position (Which he looked a better by the way) or potentially to the bench.

Oh did he? Is that what you think? I had no idea...

I suggest people go back and watch the games, or at least that Cleveland game, and you'll notice that AG at the 3 is not what's hurting us.

Yes, he needs to get faster if he wants to break people down off the dribble on the perimeter.

Yes, he needs to pick his opportunities better, and learn to read defenses better.

But those are his only major issues. He gets no help from Vuc or Ibaka in trying to generate space for him.

He's our most efficient 3pt shooter so far through 3 games. He's our most efficient scorer through 3 games. He's our 2nd highest rebounder (even more than Ibaka), he leads the team in steals, and he only averages 2TOs a game.

3 games into the season, in a new position, under a new coach - that's not a bad start.

[fendilim]

You can do whatever you like, but I've yet to see anyone put forth a legit reason for why AG at the 3 isn't working. Everyone just parrots the same thing "AG at the 3 isn't working", or "AG is better as a 4".

I honestly dont think many people understand why he'd be better for one or the other. Especially when a lot of people are now mentioning Tobias as some kind of ironic godsend we traded away, as if they forgot the many discussions that were had about how he couldn't play SF for many reasons.

Maybe because the starters have lost by 20+ points in every single game so far and have not put up much of a fight in the first few games?

If these games were really more competitive and the team wasn't struggling, I promise you Ben not that many people would be so quick to push Gordon back to the 4 position (Which he looked a better by the way) or potentially to the bench.

Oh did he? Is that what you think? I had no idea...

I suggest people go back and watch the games, or at least that Cleveland game, and you'll notice that AG at the 3 is not what's hurting us.

Yes, he needs to get faster if he wants to break people down off the dribble on the perimeter.

Yes, he needs to pick his opportunities better, and learn to read defenses better.

But those are his only major issues. He gets no help from Vuc or Ibaka in trying to generate space for him.

He's our most efficient 3pt shooter so far through 3 games. He's our most efficient scorer through 3 games. He's our 2nd highest rebounder (even more than Ibaka), he leads the team in steals, and he only averages 2TOs a game.

3 games into the season, in a new position, under a new coach - that's not a bad start.

Are you suggesting AG should be shooting more threes?

[Bensational]

Maybe because the starters have lost by 20+ points in every single game so far and have not put up much of a fight in the first few games?

If these games were really more competitive and the team wasn't struggling, I promise you Ben not that many people would be so quick to push Gordon back to the 4 position (Which he looked a better by the way) or potentially to the bench.

Oh did he? Is that what you think? I had no idea...

I suggest people go back and watch the games, or at least that Cleveland game, and you'll notice that AG at the 3 is not what's hurting us.

Yes, he needs to get faster if he wants to break people down off the dribble on the perimeter.

Yes, he needs to pick his opportunities better, and learn to read defenses better.

But those are his only major issues. He gets no help from Vuc or Ibaka in trying to generate space for him.

He's our most efficient 3pt shooter so far through 3 games. He's our most efficient scorer through 3 games. He's our 2nd highest rebounder (even more than Ibaka), he leads the team in steals, and he only averages 2TOs a game.

3 games into the season, in a new position, under a new coach - that's not a bad start.

Are you suggesting AG should be shooting more threes?

You say that as if it's a bad thing. He's 4-7 (57%) across 3 games to start the season, why not? Because fans have it in their head he can't shoot 3's, same as they have it in their head he can't play SF, despite evidence to the contrary?

As long as he's taking smart shots, in good positions, within the flow of the offense, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be taking 3-4 attempts a game. Sure, he's started the season hotter than he'll average out, but if he dips to a 30% shooter or less then you can scale it back. Otherwise, consistently using that shot should only help to develop it, and present him as a threat that defenses have to respect.

[JBSouthpaw]

Not sure what the designation has to do with the Clev. Game?
Our center guarded their center,
Serge (or Green) guarded Love
AG was on LeBron.

IF AG moved to the 4, and we brought in any other player and sat Serge or Vuc. Who was going to guard Love or LBJ?
Because AG can guard only 1.
AG Guards KLove, Evan or Mario on LBJ???
Serge on KLove & AG on LeBron is our best match up.
btw, AG held James to below is Average, and below 50% from the field.

I was just glad to see our team fight in the 2nd half. I'll take losing by 6 to the champs.

[Blue_and_Whte]

We went small and got more spacing and made shots. Our rotations were better because we had more speed on the court.

Honestly, our small lineups were not even our most optimal ones. Gordon didn't get put back in the game soon enough and Mario didn't get enough burn.

People are saying Mario and Evan suck but I think they are a byproduct of poor spacing. Evan made some big shots down the stretch when we went small. Every time Mario has had some space he has knocked down 3's.

Reality is we got the game within 3 with no Vuc on the floor. I am not slamming Vuc, he is a great player, but I just do not think he fits on our team anymore. The Magic have the talent to be a big time small ball team with Gordon at the 4 and Ibaka and Biz at 5. The talent is there now. We get the right SF and this team can play with anybody.

If we had gone small all 4 Qs against Cleveland, I believe we could have won that game. Regardless, the sky is not falling. We just need to hope that Frank and Co see the same thing and make the proper changes now.

I doubt thatWe didn't come back because Vuc wasn't on the floor we came back because guys made shots, and this one game isn't an indication of anything. Honestly its no different than last season. We routinely would find ourselves down through 3 quarters and try to make a push in the 4th to try and make a comeback, were not good enough to do that. I'm all for benching anyone as long as we win more, because unlike some, I don't have a personal agenda towards any players. The fact is, that we need to play with the sense of urgency we saw in the 4th quarter the whole game. There's no moral victories here.

Did you watch the game? Sounds like no.

When we went small the spacing immediately improved and guys were making shots that they were missing in the first half.

Additionally Biz set massive screens over and over and freed up far more space than Vuc does. Biz is a monster at setting screens, and those screens give us much better looks at the basket.

He also played great defense which allowed us to stay small. Ibaka came in for him at the 5 and did the same.

There was more to us playing with urgency. If you watch the game you will see clear and obvious signs that when we went small we had far better spacing and our rotations were a lot better on their shooters.

We barely lost the game after getting blown out for 2.5 quarters. We may have still lost, I am not saying we are a better team than CLE, but it would have been far more competitive for 4 qs.

To try and insinuate I have an agenda towards players is not only wrong, it is just childish. He just does not fit what we are trying to do. He is a very good player, but we played better with him off the floor. There was a reason Vogel benched him. Maybe with your logic you think Frank has an agenda against him as well.

HAHHAHAHA!!! Nobody gives ME a "breakdown" of any game that I watch. I know what what happened.

Guys made shots. That was the difference between the Pistons and Cavs game. They didn't start making shots until they were getting blown out. This has been a trend with this team for the last couple years. I don't understand how anyone could be proud of that.

I like that line up actually if it's generating wins. We were clawing back from another disaster and the only positive I can take away from that is at least they don't completely lack pride.



Sent from my D6708 using RealGM mobile app

[PennytoShaq]

HAHHAHAHA!!! Nobody gives ME a "breakdown" of any game that I watch. I know what what happened.

Guys made shots. That was the difference between the Pistons and Cavs game. They didn't start making shots until they were getting blown out. This has been a trend with this team for the last couple years. I don't understand how anyone could be proud of that.

Woah now, Hubie Brown, relax. That's hilariously awkward to read though.

Yeah guys made shots because they had better spacing. That was the entire point.

[Patrick1978]

Last night our season started, I'm proud of the guys, way to battle back. There is still way too much iso ball, not enough flow and movement on offence, when that happens we look bad and teams run out on us. The effort was there though and when we work hard we look like a ball team. Vucevic is the odd man out, seems like a good guy, but as other people have said he doesn't fit. Move Gordon to 4 with Green and go small rotating Ibaka and Biz and we'll be in business. Hopefully we can keep pace with Vucevic then move him in December/January. Really hyped with this team now, it's going to take 6 weeks but when we stablise and get some chemistry and consistency we're going to be dangerous

Who do you put in at sg and sf?
I hope wilcox gets more time,i think he can help this team.
Also the return of meeks will help

[Def Swami]

Tobias Harris is the answer at the 3 now?

The same Tobias Harris that everyone was screaming was too slow to play the 3?

The same Tobias Harris who was only scoring 13.7ppg and shooting 31% from 3?

The same Tobias Harris who looks a lot better now because he's being given more freedom and opportunity?

Maybe we should just trade AG so that everyone will start appreciating him again.

Can't I appreciate him at the 4?

You can do whatever you like, but I've yet to see anyone put forth a legit reason for why AG at the 3 isn't working. Everyone just parrots the same thing "AG at the 3 isn't working", or "AG is better as a 4".

I honestly dont think many people understand why he'd be better for one or the other. Especially when a lot of people are now mentioning Tobias as some kind of ironic godsend we traded away, as if they forgot the many discussions that were had about how he couldn't play SF for many reasons.

My thing isn't so much about AG's ability; I have no questions about his ability to play either position well. But, from our team's perspective, I still believe a Gordon/Ibaka or Biyombo 4/5 combination offers this team the most offensive upside while maintaining the same defensive versatility. I'm okay with having Gordon play minutes as a 3, but I really dislike pigeonholing him there. I read your analysis, which was awesome, and I think another solution to open up the paint is to get another capable ballhandler, shooter, and playmaker out there that doesn't naturally occupy the paint. Having Gordon play the 4 isn't a referendum on his ballhandling or shooting, so much as just maximizing your lineups. The key is having a guy who can set the screen well and suck defenses in on the roll while surrounding him with 4 guys on the perimeter who can shoot. Gordon at the 4 is just another way to play to that.

[Orlwillbeback]

We need more space and more shooting on the floor. We should just do what I said a long time ago:

Elf
Fournier
Mario
Gordon
Ibaka

[TreasureCoast]

It's pretty satisfying knowing you were right about Gordon being a 4, but I'd still rather us be 2-1 and him be whatever position helped us get there right now.

I've seen some Gordon Hayward rumors and mentions on here and he (on paper) sounds like exactly what we need, 2 of Fournier/Mario/Vuc would have to go somehow though. Here's hoping he prefers our white bread team over Utah's and tells them he wants to look elsewhere-unlikely I know. I can't think of any other alternatives that could really have a positive impact that have more than a 0.0001% chance of happening. Watch us trade for Gay lol

[Orlwillbeback]

It's pretty satisfying knowing you were right about Gordon being a 4, but I'd still rather us be 2-1 and him be whatever position helped us get there right now.

I've seen some Gordon Hayward rumors and mentions on here and he (on paper) sounds like exactly what we need, 2 of Fournier/Mario/Vuc would have to go somehow though. Here's hoping he prefers our white bread team over Utah's and tells them he wants to look elsewhere-unlikely I know. I can't think of any other alternatives that could really have a positive impact that have more than a 0.0001% chance of happening. Watch us trade for Gay lol

I have not read much of the thread so I don't know much about this Hayward discussion.

Frankly, I have no idea why we are even talking about Hayward because he is under contract with Utah and they would be really dumb to lose him.

Also I am not even sure Hayward is the best fit to start with our other guys. GH is really more of a third tier star who dominates the ball but has never really been an outstanding scorer with great volume and efficiency. He is more of lead guy who is a point-small forward but he is not even a great player imo or else they would be better than they are now and have been for years.

Payton can be an effective shot creator and lead guard it'S just he has zero space to work with currently. We need to space the floor better and that can only be done by having better shooters with longer range, like Mario.

Currently, with only Ibaka and Fournier starting, we only have 2 starters who are legit three point shooters. Today in the NBA to be decent you need at least 3 and to be good you need at least four starters who are three point threats IMO.

[PennytoShaq]

We need more space and more shooting on the floor. We should just do what I said a long time ago:

Elf
Fournier
Mario
Gordon
Ibaka

I think a lot of us said this. In fact I thought this was the plan when we got Ibaka in the first place. It's a lineup I really want to see.

[Furinkazan]

It's pretty satisfying knowing you were right about Gordon being a 4, but I'd still rather us be 2-1 and him be whatever position helped us get there right now.

I've seen some Gordon Hayward rumors and mentions on here and he (on paper) sounds like exactly what we need, 2 of Fournier/Mario/Vuc would have to go somehow though. Here's hoping he prefers our white bread team over Utah's and tells them he wants to look elsewhere-unlikely I know. I can't think of any other alternatives that could really have a positive impact that have more than a 0.0001% chance of happening. Watch us trade for Gay lol

I have not read much of the thread so I don't know much about this Hayward discussion.

Frankly, I have no idea why we are even talking about Hayward because he is under contract with Utah and they would be really dumb to lose him.

Also I am not even sure Hayward is the best fit to start with our other guys. GH is really more of a third tier star who dominates the ball but has never really been an outstanding scorer with great volume and efficiency. He is more of lead guy who is a point-small forward but he is not even a great player imo or else they would be better than they are now and have been for years.

Payton can be an effective shot creator and lead guard it'S just he has zero space to work with currently. We need to space the floor better and that can only be done by having better shooters with longer range, like Mario.

Currently, with only Ibaka and Fournier starting, we only have 2 starters who are legit three point shooters. Today in the NBA to be decent you need at least 3 and to be good you need at least four starters who are three point threats IMO.

well I guess that whole idea came to mind when you look at 2017 FA market
whos there?Millsap and Lowry its the same tier as Hayward ... Millsap has option so who knows he may not even opt out ...and Lowry has a nice situation so ...why would he leave unless this year Raptors go downhill ( I woudnt bet my money on that) ....so Hayward is most propable top tier target to be had...at least thats what everybody thinks.... other FAs(not restricted ones) are tiers below him thats why he is the target.Thats why people think Jazz may cosider trading him at the deadline they fear they gonna loose him for nothing and thats why Celtics are 1st in line with their assets.who else is there? Curry Durant ? they wont leave... same as Paul and Griffin

[JBSouthpaw]

While AG might be a better 4 individually,
AG at the 3 and Serge at the 4 is better than AG at the 4 and anyone currently on the roster at the 3 IMO.
To me, Mario is not ready.

[Orlwillbeback]

We need more space and more shooting on the floor. We should just do what I said a long time ago:

Elf
Fournier
Mario
Gordon
Ibaka

I think a lot of us said this. In fact I thought this was the plan when we got Ibaka in the first place. It's a lineup I really want to see.

I'll bet I said it first