3rd time's a charm?: Cle vs Orl 10/29

[MagicFan101]

We need more space and more shooting on the floor. We should just do what I said a long time ago:

Elf
Fournier
Mario
Gordon
Ibaka

I think a lot of us said this. In fact I thought this was the plan when we got Ibaka in the first place. It's a lineup I really want to see.

I'll bet I said it first

If Mario can emerge to be the player everyone wants him to be then there isn't a debate to be had. This decision will be easy.

[PennytoShaq]

We need more space and more shooting on the floor. We should just do what I said a long time ago:

Elf
Fournier
Mario
Gordon
Ibaka

I think a lot of us said this. In fact I thought this was the plan when we got Ibaka in the first place. It's a lineup I really want to see.

I'll bet I said it first

Actually I highly doubt you did. Go look at my posts the night of the trade when everyone was melting down. I said it then, and the next day.

Additionally, this is starting to smell like you are one of those guys rooting for the team to struggle so you can say "I told you so". Don't be that guy.

[Orlwillbeback]

Actually I highly doubt you did. Go look at my posts the night of the trade when everyone was melting down. I said it then, and the next day.

Additionally, this is starting to smell like you are one of those guys rooting for the team to struggle so you can say "I told you so". Don't be that guy.

Draft was Jun 23rd-

Here was my thread June 29th- http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1458385

The burden of proof is on you now. I don't really feel like pulling up your old posts to prove you right.

[PennytoShaq]

Actually I highly doubt you did. Go look at my posts the night of the trade when everyone was melting down. I said it then, and the next day.

Additionally, this is starting to smell like you are one of those guys rooting for the team to struggle so you can say "I told you so". Don't be that guy.

Draft was Jun 23rd-

Here was my thread June 29th- http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1458385

The burden of proof is on you now. I don't really feel like pulling up your old posts to prove you right.

Well that was easy. Here is you complaining (shock) - viewtopic.php?p=48075777#p48075777

Here is me talking about. I talked about it in the draft night thread as well, but that is 36 pages of searching.

viewtopic.php?p=48141755#p48141755

Anyway, thanks for playing.

[Tayswagzzz]

It's pretty satisfying knowing you were right about Gordon being a 4, but I'd still rather us be 2-1 and him be whatever position helped us get there right now.

I've seen some Gordon Hayward rumors and mentions on here and he (on paper) sounds like exactly what we need, 2 of Fournier/Mario/Vuc would have to go somehow though. Here's hoping he prefers our white bread team over Utah's and tells them he wants to look elsewhere-unlikely I know. I can't think of any other alternatives that could really have a positive impact that have more than a 0.0001% chance of happening. Watch us trade for Gay lol

I fully expect us to sign Gay lol.

[Orlwillbeback]

Actually I highly doubt you did. Go look at my posts the night of the trade when everyone was melting down. I said it then, and the next day.

Additionally, this is starting to smell like you are one of those guys rooting for the team to struggle so you can say "I told you so". Don't be that guy.

Draft was Jun 23rd-

Here was my thread June 29th- http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1458385

The burden of proof is on you now. I don't really feel like pulling up your old posts to prove you right.

Well that was easy. Here is you complaining (shock) - viewtopic.php?p=48075777#p48075777

Here is me talking about. I talked about it in the draft night thread as well, but that is 36 pages of searching.

viewtopic.php?p=48141755#p48141755

Anyway, thanks for playing.

Lol

Wrongggg again!

You never state anything other than simply playing Gordon at the four and Ibaka at the 5.

You neglected to make note of the crux of my argument which was to have Mario playing alongside them with Fournier and Elfrid. 4 shooters on the floor at one time, that's what matters.

[PennytoShaq]

Draft was Jun 23rd-

Here was my thread June 29th- http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1458385

The burden of proof is on you now. I don't really feel like pulling up your old posts to prove you right.

Well that was easy. Here is you complaining (shock) - viewtopic.php?p=48075777#p48075777

Here is me talking about. I talked about it in the draft night thread as well, but that is 36 pages of searching.

viewtopic.php?p=48141755#p48141755

Anyway, thanks for playing.

Lol

Wrongggg again!

You never state anything other than simply playing Gordon at the four and Ibaka at the 5.

You neglected to make note of the crux of my argument which was to have Mario playing alongside them with Fournier and Elfrid. 4 shooters on the floor at one time, that's what matters.

Yeah, let's not get into name calling and talking down to other posters.

- mod edit

Nothing was wrong at all. Not even sure how you can try and spin that one.

You were against Ibaka. I showed the proof.I have supported a Gordon/Ibaka frontcourt since the trade. Trying to make it like the whole debate is about Mario starting is a futile effort at changing the conversation.

You can't spin actual facts.

[JF5]

Oh did he? Is that what you think? I had no idea...

I suggest people go back and watch the games, or at least that Cleveland game, and you'll notice that AG at the 3 is not what's hurting us.

Yes, he needs to get faster if he wants to break people down off the dribble on the perimeter.

Yes, he needs to pick his opportunities better, and learn to read defenses better.

But those are his only major issues. He gets no help from Vuc or Ibaka in trying to generate space for him.

He's our most efficient 3pt shooter so far through 3 games. He's our most efficient scorer through 3 games. He's our 2nd highest rebounder (even more than Ibaka), he leads the team in steals, and he only averages 2TOs a game.

3 games into the season, in a new position, under a new coach - that's not a bad start.

Are you suggesting AG should be shooting more threes?

You say that as if it's a bad thing. He's 4-7 (57%) across 3 games to start the season, why not? Because fans have it in their head he can't shoot 3's, same as they have it in their head he can't play SF, despite evidence to the contrary?

As long as he's taking smart shots, in good positions, within the flow of the offense, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be taking 3-4 attempts a game. Sure, he's started the season hotter than he'll average out, but if he dips to a 30% shooter or less then you can scale it back. Otherwise, consistently using that shot should only help to develop it, and present him as a threat that defenses have to respect.

Team gets throttled first 3 games and believes his guy can't be one of the culprits. As long as his stats look good right Ben?

Btw, AG was -23 on Saturday... Amazing, right?

[VFX]

You can do whatever you like, but I've yet to see anyone put forth a legit reason for why AG at the 3 isn't working. Everyone just parrots the same thing "AG at the 3 isn't working", or "AG is better as a 4".

I honestly dont think many people understand why he'd be better for one or the other. Especially when a lot of people are now mentioning Tobias as some kind of ironic godsend we traded away, as if they forgot the many discussions that were had about how he couldn't play SF for many reasons.

Spacing and personnel.

He's playing the 3 because he has to play the 3. If he plays the 4 we have two centers that could potentially start- on the bench.

Or Ibaka - which is arguably the best player on this team based on previous experience.

We have no spacing if we have Evan as our only legitimate 3pt shooter. You saw what happened last night when we went small and opened up the floor with perimeter threats.

The spacing problem for the starting 5 is the result of Ibaka and Vuc crowding the paint with a high-low game. It wasn't the 'small' game which opened things up, it was the fact that Green wasn't camped in the paint (or within 10-15ft of the rim) the way Ibaka is on a lot of plays, and Biyombo sets screens to open things up for his teammates unilke Vuc. Cleveland's defense had some very lazy lapses in that 4th quarter (which is no surprise with a 20 point lead), but if you go back and look at the first quarter you'll see that LeBron stuck with AG on the perimeter as much as he stuck with Green in the 4th.

Also, we went small in the 2nd quarter, too, with our bench unit. That's when Cleveland got the 20 point lead to begin with. So going small doesn't always play out the way it did in the 4th.

AG is playing the 3 because he can play the 3. If he couldn't, Vogel wouldn't have him on the court.

I took the time to pull screen shots from the game to show this, and put them up in this thread. Feel free to add your input or take on things there, too

Firstly, how does Vogel know AG can play the three in a 3 game sample size outside of preseason?

I'm sure he can play it, but is it really what we want to do having only 1-2 legitimate shooters on the floor at a time?

I'm not saying he can't develop a shot, but ask yourself the question - what is the difference between PG13, Butler, Leonard , and our AG?

That's right.. they can all create shots, shoot from beyond the arc and guard 2-3 positions effectively.
AG does one of those things well. He can defend.

I think he can eventually become that player, but on this team now if we want him to take that step we need to make a few moves to open it up for him. Not pressure him into doing something he hasn't.

[Bensational]

Are you suggesting AG should be shooting more threes?

You say that as if it's a bad thing. He's 4-7 (57%) across 3 games to start the season, why not? Because fans have it in their head he can't shoot 3's, same as they have it in their head he can't play SF, despite evidence to the contrary?

As long as he's taking smart shots, in good positions, within the flow of the offense, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be taking 3-4 attempts a game. Sure, he's started the season hotter than he'll average out, but if he dips to a 30% shooter or less then you can scale it back. Otherwise, consistently using that shot should only help to develop it, and present him as a threat that defenses have to respect.

Team gets throttled first 3 games and believes his guy can't be one of the culprits. As long as his stats look good right Ben?

Btw, AG was -23 on Saturday... Amazing, right?

So the reason the team got throttled in the first 3 games is all on AG? Is that what you're saying?

JF5, come on now, you're really stretching here. One bad stat? That's all you got?

[Bensational]

Spacing and personnel.

He's playing the 3 because he has to play the 3. If he plays the 4 we have two centers that could potentially start- on the bench.

Or Ibaka - which is arguably the best player on this team based on previous experience.

We have no spacing if we have Evan as our only legitimate 3pt shooter. You saw what happened last night when we went small and opened up the floor with perimeter threats.

The spacing problem for the starting 5 is the result of Ibaka and Vuc crowding the paint with a high-low game. It wasn't the 'small' game which opened things up, it was the fact that Green wasn't camped in the paint (or within 10-15ft of the rim) the way Ibaka is on a lot of plays, and Biyombo sets screens to open things up for his teammates unilke Vuc. Cleveland's defense had some very lazy lapses in that 4th quarter (which is no surprise with a 20 point lead), but if you go back and look at the first quarter you'll see that LeBron stuck with AG on the perimeter as much as he stuck with Green in the 4th.

Also, we went small in the 2nd quarter, too, with our bench unit. That's when Cleveland got the 20 point lead to begin with. So going small doesn't always play out the way it did in the 4th.

AG is playing the 3 because he can play the 3. If he couldn't, Vogel wouldn't have him on the court.

I took the time to pull screen shots from the game to show this, and put them up in this thread. Feel free to add your input or take on things there, too

Firstly, how does Vogel know AG can play the three in a 3 game sample size outside of preseason?

I'm sure he can play it, but is it really what we want to do having only 1-2 legitimate shooters on the floor at a time?

I'm not saying he can't develop a shot, but ask yourself the question - what is the difference between PG13, Butler, Leonard , and our AG?

That's right.. they can all create shots, shoot from beyond the arc and guard 2-3 positions effectively.
AG does one of those things well. He can defend.

I think he can eventually become that player, but on this team now if we want him to take that step we need to make a few moves to open it up for him. Not pressure him into doing something he hasn't.

Vogel would've evaluated AG in practice, in preseason and these first 3 games. If AG were truly struggling, I'm sure Vogel would've made changes or at the very least made tweaks to how AG played the role.

AG's shooting is coming along well, I don't see the problem. He's leading the team in fg% and 3fg%. Let's wait until he dips into a bad area before we continue assuming he can't shoot, please.

This season is the season for AG to be gifted some freedom and wiggle room to learn. He's trying to make a few plays in between doing what he does well - cutting through lanes, alley oops, taking open 3s, pushing the break etc.

[JF5]

You say that as if it's a bad thing. He's 4-7 (57%) across 3 games to start the season, why not? Because fans have it in their head he can't shoot 3's, same as they have it in their head he can't play SF, despite evidence to the contrary?

As long as he's taking smart shots, in good positions, within the flow of the offense, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be taking 3-4 attempts a game. Sure, he's started the season hotter than he'll average out, but if he dips to a 30% shooter or less then you can scale it back. Otherwise, consistently using that shot should only help to develop it, and present him as a threat that defenses have to respect.

Team gets throttled first 3 games and believes his guy can't be one of the culprits. As long as his stats look good right Ben?

Btw, AG was -23 on Saturday... Amazing, right?

So the reason the team got throttled in the first 3 games is all on AG? Is that what you're saying?

JF5, come on now, you're really stretching here. One bad stat? That's all you got?

What do you mean "one bad stat"? that's his overall impact on the game.

as a matter of fact AG has one of the worst +/- out of all the starters. Meaning he's one of the weak links (statistically).

I mean for a guy who pushes the numbers game. That's very fascinating considering you've used advanced stats for previous arguments.

[Bensational]

Team gets throttled first 3 games and believes his guy can't be one of the culprits. As long as his stats look good right Ben?

Btw, AG was -23 on Saturday... Amazing, right?

So the reason the team got throttled in the first 3 games is all on AG? Is that what you're saying?

JF5, come on now, you're really stretching here. One bad stat? That's all you got?

What do you mean "one bad stat"? that's his overall impact on the game.

as a matter of fact AG has one of the worst +/- out of all the starters. Meaning he's one of the weak links (statistically).

I mean for a guy who pushes the numbers game. That's very fascinating considering you've used advanced stats for previous arguments.

Yeah, it's 1 stat. He ranks highly (if not the top) in most other advanced stats.

PER: 2nd
TS%: 1st
USG: 8th (this means he's barely even involved in the offense)
OWS: Tied 1st
DWS: 1st
WS: 1st
OBPM: 3rd
DBPM: 1st
BPM: 1st

But alright, show me where AG caused the 21 point deficit. Show me how AG's presence single-handedly caused the team to have a 21 point deficit whilst he was on the court. Show me that it was a missed AG assignment on defense every time they scored, and show me that it was AG's fault that Vuc/Fournier/Payton missed shots whilst he was on the court. Show me you actually understand how that stat is calculated, and that you're able to objectively view it, rather than this being a case of you just hunting for 1 bad statistic to hold against AG.

I don't just push the numbers game. I actually took the time to break down the game with screen shots, too. You can find that here, in case you missed it.

[Nemesis21]

Magic/Philly game thread?

[Orlwillbeback]

Ya I don't think Gordon is necessarily the problem. Everybody needs to play better.

[JF5]

So the reason the team got throttled in the first 3 games is all on AG? Is that what you're saying?

JF5, come on now, you're really stretching here. One bad stat? That's all you got?

What do you mean "one bad stat"? that's his overall impact on the game.

as a matter of fact AG has one of the worst +/- out of all the starters. Meaning he's one of the weak links (statistically).

I mean for a guy who pushes the numbers game. That's very fascinating considering you've used advanced stats for previous arguments.

Yeah, it's 1 stat. He ranks highly (if not the top) in most other advanced stats.

PER: 2nd
TS%: 1st
USG: 8th (this means he's barely even involved in the offense)
OWS: Tied 1st
DWS: 1st
WS: 1st
OBPM: 3rd
DBPM: 1st
BPM: 1st

But alright, show me where AG caused the 21 point deficit. Show me how AG's presence single-handedly caused the team to have a 21 point deficit whilst he was on the court. Show me that it was a missed AG assignment on defense every time they scored, and show me that it was AG's fault that Vuc/Fournier/Payton missed shots whilst he was on the court. Show me you actually understand how that stat is calculated, and that you're able to objectively view it, rather than this being a case of you just hunting for 1 bad statistic to hold against AG.

I don't just push the numbers game. I actually took the time to break down the game with screen shots, too. You can find that here, in case you missed it.

1. Vucevic is first in per...
2. AG even though is 8th in usage, commits 2nd most in turnover percentage after Biyombo. (BTW he averages 2 assists to 2 turnovers a game) which means he struggles with keeping a handle on the ball.
3. When you look at 2 you can easily assume he's playing off the ball more. so offensively hes getting baskets from dunking/layups or spotting up.
4. He's essentially a role player/clean up guy given the statistics. So it would be easy to assume with a higher usage his numbers wouldn't look so great offensively.
5. Yahoo has had him with -10, -11, and -21 in the last 3 games. Thats predicated on the individual.
6. I'm saying he's part of the problem with the current lineup. You can easily look at these stats and say Vucevic shouldn't be benched either. But this team looks like crap on both ends given the eye test.

[basketballRob]

What do you mean "one bad stat"? that's his overall impact on the game.

as a matter of fact AG has one of the worst +/- out of all the starters. Meaning he's one of the weak links (statistically).

I mean for a guy who pushes the numbers game. That's very fascinating considering you've used advanced stats for previous arguments.

Yeah, it's 1 stat. He ranks highly (if not the top) in most other advanced stats.

PER: 2nd
TS%: 1st
USG: 8th (this means he's barely even involved in the offense)
OWS: Tied 1st
DWS: 1st
WS: 1st
OBPM: 3rd
DBPM: 1st
BPM: 1st

But alright, show me where AG caused the 21 point deficit. Show me how AG's presence single-handedly caused the team to have a 21 point deficit whilst he was on the court. Show me that it was a missed AG assignment on defense every time they scored, and show me that it was AG's fault that Vuc/Fournier/Payton missed shots whilst he was on the court. Show me you actually understand how that stat is calculated, and that you're able to objectively view it, rather than this being a case of you just hunting for 1 bad statistic to hold against AG.

I don't just push the numbers game. I actually took the time to break down the game with screen shots, too. You can find that here, in case you missed it.

1. Vucevic is first in per...
2. AG even though is 8th in usage, commits 2nd most in turnover percentage after Biyombo. (BTW he averages 2 assists to 2 turnovers a game) which means he struggles with keeping a handle on the ball.
3. When you look at 2 you can easily assume he's playing off the ball more. so offensively hes getting baskets from dunking/layups or spotting up.
4. He's essentially a role player/clean up guy given the statistics. So it would be easy to assume with a higher usage his numbers wouldn't look so great offensively.
5. Yahoo has had him with -10, -11, and -21 in the last 3 games. Thats predicated on the individual.
6. I'm saying he's part of the problem with the current lineup. You can easily look at these stats and say Vucevic shouldn't be benched either. But this team looks like crap on both ends given the eye test.

Biyombo has struggled finding his role the last two games, but starting him would make us more athletic and help set a defensive tone.

Vucevic we saw in the short stint last season when he came off the bench, is great in that role.

[Bensational]

Yeah, it's 1 stat. He ranks highly (if not the top) in most other advanced stats.

PER: 2nd
TS%: 1st
USG: 8th (this means he's barely even involved in the offense)
OWS: Tied 1st
DWS: 1st
WS: 1st
OBPM: 3rd
DBPM: 1st
BPM: 1st

But alright, show me where AG caused the 21 point deficit. Show me how AG's presence single-handedly caused the team to have a 21 point deficit whilst he was on the court. Show me that it was a missed AG assignment on defense every time they scored, and show me that it was AG's fault that Vuc/Fournier/Payton missed shots whilst he was on the court. Show me you actually understand how that stat is calculated, and that you're able to objectively view it, rather than this being a case of you just hunting for 1 bad statistic to hold against AG.

I don't just push the numbers game. I actually took the time to break down the game with screen shots, too. You can find that here, in case you missed it.

1. Vucevic is first in per...
2. AG even though is 8th in usage, commits 2nd most in turnover percentage after Biyombo. (BTW he averages 2 assists to 2 turnovers a game) which means he struggles with keeping a handle on the ball.
3. When you look at 2 you can easily assume he's playing off the ball more. so offensively hes getting baskets from dunking/layups or spotting up.
4. He's essentially a role player/clean up guy given the statistics. So it would be easy to assume with a higher usage his numbers wouldn't look so great offensively.
5. Yahoo has had him with -10, -11, and -21 in the last 3 games. Thats predicated on the individual.
6. I'm saying he's part of the problem with the current lineup. You can easily look at these stats and say Vucevic shouldn't be benched either. But this team looks like crap on both ends given the eye test.

2TOs is not costing us these games, and I think you know that.

AG is not responsible for Vuc, Fournier and Ibaka missing shots. It hasn't been Winslow/Morris/LeBron who have been the guys collapsing on them and/or blocking their shots.

AG is not responsible for other teams lighting us up, either. He isn't making Ibaka refuse to challenge shots. He isn't missing defensive rotations to cover Vuc's man. His man certainly isn't lighting him up.

The handful of plays where AG is driving, or when he forces things on offense and they don't work, are no worse than the plays that Fournier drives into a crowded paint and takes a bad shot. They're no worse than when Vuc misses one of his long 2's. They're no worse than Green shooting 32% to start the season.

You said it yourself, for the most part he's playing efficiently off the ball. So what's the problem???? Isn't that exactly what you want him doing at the 4, anyway? You think we've got another option who's going to step in and make magic happen at the 3 all of a sudden? Jeff Green's 32% shooting is gonna save us? Hezonja? Or do we shift Fournier to the 3 and bring Augustin in at the 2 and completely compromise our perimeter defense?

[Xatticus]

I'm not sure why Gordon's position is being considered the primary culprit in our poor start, but even if it were the cause, I wouldn't mind the experiment. Oladipo was never going to become a PG, but all of that time spent in possession in his rookie year had to have a positive influence on his offensive development. Most of what we are focusing on right now isn't particularly consequential to our chances of contending in the next few years, but Gordon's development is critical if this era of rebuilding is going to turn us into anything more than first-round fodder.

I'm patiently waiting for the debate to shift to Biyombo versus Dedmon.