Jahlil Okafor

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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#21 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Nov 1, 2016 9:17 pm

MessiahUjiri wrote:Why don't you think he's getting the love?

Maybe it's his inability to can't anchor a defense, or help stretch the floor on offense? No one denies his low post scoring skills, but he has some deficiencies which aren't easy fixes.


Neither did Shaq or many post up superstars of years past. I think it just goes to what I said about big man in another thread. You could be a 60% scorer inside with an advanced low post skillset. If you ain't shooting.......you suck. That aint my opinion but that's the opinion of most modern basketball enthusiasts.

And no I'm not saying he's as good as Shaq but his skillset within 10ft is pretty dynamic. It's just that those who specialize there need not apply in this modern nba landscape. Defense would definitley help though
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#22 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Nov 1, 2016 9:22 pm

tsherkin wrote:
LALifer49 wrote:Has any 17/7 decent efficiency rookie ever gotten as little love as this guy?

Here is a prospect I was very excited about coming out of college, who in a very bad situation with no guard help put up good numbers while displaying amazing post moves. His numbers once he gets even a passable pg like ish smith are even better, and if I recall pretty efficient.

Yet no one is listing him as a big of the future or even one of the top prospects of his draft. He has the potential to be a prolific scorer. To quote the black eyed peas "where is the love?"


Weak defender. Unimpressive rebounder. Doesn't really project confidence for developing into an offensive focal player. No demonstrated range past about 10 feet. Slightly below average efficiency (albeit as a rookie and in some turbulent circumstances), why should he get more pub?

He's not a "big of the future," he doesn't do enough to garner that sort of label. He might become a better scorer, he certainly has the moves and works well off of a halfway decent point guard but I mean, it's pretty clear that he's not the same level of talent as some of the guys who get talked about ahead of him. He projects as a very reasonable player, but more of a utility player than a top-end star.

*shrugs*

He's in that "g'head and prove it" stage now more than anything, as others have moved ahead of where he is and only time will give us the answers.


Consider this though, and I'm a knock fan with every reason to be biased. KP is treated like the best thing since sliced bread, posted pretty much an identical stat line. I would say that KP is a better defender for sure but he scores at something like a 46% rate compared to Okofors 60 and purple treat him like he has the world's potential at his fingertips but Okofor........why can't you hit threes my g? Well maybe because he was too busy taking 60% shots
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Re: RE: Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#23 » by lars_rosenberg » Tue Nov 1, 2016 9:30 pm

JB2 wrote:Problem is that there is little to no trade market for him-- I mean, I cannot think of any team that is going to be willing to send something significant for him. Philly should let Boston have him by now but they thought they could get more and now it may be backfiring.

IMO, perfect fit for Jah is NO. Anthony Davis (another Chi kid) is the ideal compliment to his weaknesses and Jahlil can be effective in freeing up Davis a little bit more.

Then again, not sure NO has anything to offer Philly.


I don't see the fit. AD is nothing special on defense and is very ball dominant on offense. Where does Okafor gets the opportunity to use his skillset?
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Nazrmohamed wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
LALifer49 wrote:Has any 17/7 decent efficiency rookie ever gotten as little love as this guy?

Here is a prospect I was very excited about coming out of college, who in a very bad situation with no guard help put up good numbers while displaying amazing post moves. His numbers once he gets even a passable pg like ish smith are even better, and if I recall pretty efficient.

Yet no one is listing him as a big of the future or even one of the top prospects of his draft. He has the potential to be a prolific scorer. To quote the black eyed peas "where is the love?"


Weak defender. Unimpressive rebounder. Doesn't really project confidence for developing into an offensive focal player. No demonstrated range past about 10 feet. Slightly below average efficiency (albeit as a rookie and in some turbulent circumstances), why should he get more pub?

He's not a "big of the future," he doesn't do enough to garner that sort of label. He might become a better scorer, he certainly has the moves and works well off of a halfway decent point guard but I mean, it's pretty clear that he's not the same level of talent as some of the guys who get talked about ahead of him. He projects as a very reasonable player, but more of a utility player than a top-end star.

*shrugs*

He's in that "g'head and prove it" stage now more than anything, as others have moved ahead of where he is and only time will give us the answers.


Consider this though, and I'm a knock fan with every reason to be biased. KP is treated like the best thing since sliced bread, posted pretty much an identical stat line. I would say that KP is a better defender for sure but he scores at something like a 46% rate compared to Okofors 60 and purple treat him like he has the world's potential at his fingertips but Okofor........why can't you hit threes my g? Well maybe because he was too busy taking 60% shots


KP is already a better defender and shooter. His physical tools are great and he seems to have good work ethic.
Is this enough?

Okafor is going to be good, but I'm not surprised KP is getting more love, he simply has more potential.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#24 » by LALifer49 » Tue Nov 1, 2016 9:34 pm

Al Jefferson is a player that led teams to playoff appearances and was good for 20/10.

Jahlil Okafor is more mobile than him and better than him at scoring. Yet also from what I've seen displays some pretty solid passing ability which Jefferson lacks. To me he is a future all star caliber big man, but you certainly wouldn't think it from looking at this thread. Yeah I see similarities between Okafor and Jefferson, who he is most often compared to, except that he is better than Jefferson. He was also a rookie last year, so although he struggled defensively, it is not like this is something he cant improve on.

And there's no requirement that your center be able to shoot the 3, while it is nice for a center to provide spacing, it is also the position where outside shooting is least essential to the team.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#25 » by tsherkin » Tue Nov 1, 2016 9:54 pm

LALifer49 wrote:Al Jefferson is a player that led teams to playoff appearances and was good for 20/10.


~ 22/11 on below-average efficiency more valuable for the absence of competent offensive support than anything else, but yes. They were the 24th-ranked offense in the league with him at the helm, but the 5th-best defense. Jefferson had nothing really to do with the latter, so which do you think was the primary leading factor in their success during a 43-win season?

Jahlil Okafor is more mobile than him and better than him at scoring. Yet also from what I've seen displays some pretty solid passing ability which Jefferson lacks. To me he is a future all star caliber big man, but you certainly wouldn't think it from looking at this thread. Yeah I see similarities between Okafor and Jefferson, who he is most often compared to, except that he is better than Jefferson. He was also a rookie last year, so although he struggled defensively, it is not like this is something he cant improve on.

And there's no requirement that your center be able to shoot the 3, while it is nice for a center to provide spacing, it is also the position where outside shooting is least essential to the team.


Given Okafor's size and defense, he's better-served at the 4, with a stretch 5 alongside him, I'd imagine. Technically, he can play the 5, but that seems less than ideal.

Nazrmohamed wrote:Consider this though, and I'm a knock fan with every reason to be biased. KP is treated like the best thing since sliced bread, posted pretty much an identical stat line. I would say that KP is a better defender for sure but he scores at something like a 46% rate compared to Okofors 60 and purple treat him like he has the world's potential at his fingertips but Okofor........why can't you hit threes my g? Well maybe because he was too busy taking 60% shots


Porzingis' defense is a lot better. He's a slightly better rebounder and a more compelling offensive talent (though that's based on potential, not realized ability just yet). Okafor doesn't need to hit 3s, that's not his bag, but KP plays really good defense already, and that's far more valuable.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#26 » by JellosJigglin » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:00 pm

As an old school fan, I happen to love post play and I do enjoy watching Okafor. It's not his fault, but the rules of the modern NBA just don't favor post play anymore. Perimeter players are untouchable in today's game.

A ballhandler with a full head of steam in the paint is going to put a lot more pressure on the defense than an iso-heavy post player who, for the most part, can be bodied up, bumped, poked, shoved, tripped, kicked, elbowed, without a call against a set defense. You do any of those things on the perimeter and it's free throws all day.

There was a time when the rules made it so that playing inside-out gave you the best chance to get a bucket. That just isn't the case anymore, and we have advanced statistical information to back that up.

I think if Okafor played elite defense you could still attempt to build around him with a slow-pace, Memphis style team. And if he could draw double teams and pass like the Gasol brothers, or even KAT, we'd probably place his potential in the same league as KP if not higher. And if he did all those AND developed a jumper out to 20ft? There would be no limit placed on his potential.

The problem is Okafor has shown us he's exactly what we knew he already was: a great post scorer. Until he can take the weaker parts of his game and make them his strengths, his potential won't be viewed the same as KP's. That means becoming an impactful defender, creating shots for his teammates, and if possible, developing a consistent jumper to space the floor.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#27 » by tsherkin » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:08 pm

JellosJigglin wrote:As an old school fan, I happen to love post play and I do enjoy watching Okafor. It's not his fault, but the rules of the modern NBA just don't favor post play anymore. Perimeter players are untouchable in today's game.


This has absolutely nothing to do with Okafor's problems.Further, isolation post play usually isn't stunningly efficient, which is why the best offensive bigs have supplemented with strong offensive rebounding and off-ball play, as well as PnR play... and a big part of why Malone and Robinson and Ewing all broke down to one degree or another in the playoffs when they were asked to be initiators too often instead of secondary offensive weapons. And even then, they weren't really huge volume backdown specialists anyway, a lot of them were face-up guys when they isolated. Robinson, for example, really only backed down for mismatches most of the time, and slashed in. Ewing was a classic face-post big with a 17-footer, as was Olajuwon. Their back-to-the-basket game was usually off-ball movement to get a deep seal and then a quick move from a hi-lo feed into the paint or deep on the low block. That's very different from an extended dump-in iso.

Okafor has so little time under his belt that we don't know what his offensive potential is. It remains possible that he can wield that post game to some offensive utility, and we saw some signs that he sparks well with strong PG play, which is a pretty classic pairing for a big. I think a misunderstanding of the pros and cons of post play even in the older eras leads to comments of this sort more than anything. As you say, though, his defense and passing are much bigger barriers to him becoming a focal player than his offense.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#28 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:10 pm

And I get the defense. I tried to separate that from my argument cuz I know defense is a huge part of the game that Okofor has to work on and may never achieve at an elite level. I think that if he could at least defend his area it would be a great help to him.

But speaking to offense in a bubble, Im just saying people are so enamored with shooting or in other words jump shots that they miss the point that if Okofor never took a jump shot for the rest of his life he'd still be a guy that if you feed in the post would score at a 60% rate. Doesn't that count fir anything in todays nba?

And its funny cuz here in ny fans are thinking the evolution of kps game should be to get better in the post and compared to Okofor is like comparing a rookie to a superstar. So all Im saying is that it's a shame that one can be so dominant in an area of the game and is just like.........yeah, nobody is into that right now. Put away your advanced moves and go find somewhere to catch and shoot at, you'll be more valuable. On offense that is
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#29 » by LALifer49 » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:10 pm

tsherkin wrote:
LALifer49 wrote:Al Jefferson is a player that led teams to playoff appearances and was good for 20/10.


~ 22/11 on below-average efficiency more valuable for the absence of competent offensive support than anything else, but yes. They were the 24th-ranked offense in the league with him at the helm, but the 5th-best defense. Jefferson had nothing really to do with the latter, so which do you think was the primary leading factor in their success during a 43-win season?

Was he not also the #1 option on some low level jazz playoff berths? And while his efficiency is below average, Okafor is more offensively talented than he is, I think Okafor can be an efficient scorer, it's not like it's impossible for a post scorer to be efficient and Okafor is particularly skilled in this regard, plus he is a solid free throw shooter.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#30 » by LALifer49 » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:13 pm

JellosJigglin wrote:.

The problem is Okafor has shown us he's exactly what we knew he already was: a great post scorer. Until he can take the weaker parts of his game and make them his strengths, his potential won't be viewed the same as KP's. That means becoming an impactful defender, creating shots for his teammates, and if possible, developing a consistent jumper to space the floor.


I'm not saying he is a better prospect than KP, this thread was just made b/c Okafor came off a 17.5/7 rookie season on solid efficiency, yet no one seems to see him as valuable or has a bright future going forward
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#31 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:15 pm

Not to take over the thread, Ill take a break after this but wasnt a main selling point about Okofor conning out of the draft the fact that he was a great passer out of the post as well? So I don't think he's as one dimensional as advertised but rather that since his post game isn't valued, he doesn't have the platform to perform his secondary skillset, which would be to set up cutters and guys in catch and shoot situations.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#32 » by tsherkin » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:17 pm

LALifer49 wrote:Was he not also the #1 option on some low level jazz playoff berths? And while his efficiency is below average, Okafor is more offensively talented than he is, I think Okafor can be an efficient scorer, it's not like it's impossible for a post scorer to be efficient and Okafor is particularly skilled in this regard, plus he is a solid free throw shooter.


Sure, 11-13.

2011:

13th O, 23rd D no playoffs

2012:

6th O, 19th D, 36-30, swept by the Spurs in the first round.Had Paul Millsap and Gordon Hayward, and Devin Harris. Wouldn't say he led them, but he was certainly a part of it. Their O leveraged low turnovers (he definitely helped there) and drawn fouls (with which he had nothing to do because he blows at drawing fouls) to it's rating, FWIW, as well as the 2nd-best offensive rebounding in the league... again, no really his strength.

2013:

43 wins, 10th O, 21st D. No playoffs.


Okafor is particularly skilled in this regard, plus he is a solid free throw shooter.


He shot just under 69% from the line last season. What you mean here is "he's not a total embarrassment at the line."

But yes, I agree. It's possible for a post scorer to be efficient, and Oak is young. He's flashed some encouraging signs. Isolation play from the post or the perimeter is never the most efficient set to begin with, so if he can do a bunch of PnR and offball stuff, he might actually be an efficient player. Too many people think SHAQ when they think "post player," and that's a horrendous mistake. Almost no one in league history has been any good at volume offense primarily spamming post isolations, leaving aside Shaq, Wilt and Kareem.... and all of them were also good at other things offensively.

Okafor doesn't need to spam post isos. He' good at them, but strength on the block when you're not built like a mountain is about diversity. He has shown some signs of that, so we'll have to see what he evolves into over time.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#33 » by Latrell » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:35 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Latrell wrote:Actually I think the best comparison is someone like Al Jefferson.


With less rebounding and a higher offensive ceiling, but yeah. Smaller big without elite athleticism but really strong post skills, definitely adds up.


And also someone you wouldn't want to build your team around or have him start.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#34 » by JellosJigglin » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:36 pm

tsherkin wrote:
JellosJigglin wrote:As an old school fan, I happen to love post play and I do enjoy watching Okafor. It's not his fault, but the rules of the modern NBA just don't favor post play anymore. Perimeter players are untouchable in today's game.


This has absolutely nothing to do with Okafor's problems.


It has everything to do with his perceived potential in today's NBA, which is what the OP was questioning. Our opinions differ. I agree with the rest of your post regarding DRob, Ewing and Olajuwon moving off-ball but they played in eras that highlighted their post players. It was an era when the focus was getting their post players the ball in advantageous spots. In today's NBA the focus is on getting perimeter guys open looks.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#35 » by bakesale » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:39 pm

magnumt wrote:His game has always reminded me of ZBo's.

Hopefully he grows over time. But either way, 2015 was an E-P-I-C draft in the making! :clap:

--Mags

He reminds me more of Brook Lopez. Zbo was a very good defender in his prime and an absolute beast on the boards.

Brook Lopez is a good low post scorer but doesn't pass, slow footed on defence and doesn't rebound as much as he should. That also how I'd describe Okafor.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#36 » by tsherkin » Tue Nov 1, 2016 10:47 pm

Latrell wrote:And also someone you wouldn't want to build your team around or have him start.


Depends on the particulars.

JellosJigglin wrote:It has everything to do with his perceived potential in today's NBA, which is what the OP was questioning. Our opinions differ. I agree with the rest of your post regarding DRob, Ewing and Olajuwon moving off-ball but they played in eras that highlighted their post players. It was an era when the focus was getting their post players the ball in advantageous spots. In today's NBA the focus is on getting perimeter guys open looks.


Right, but I think we might still be speaking past one another.

Those guys played more like big SFs or PFs than this idea of "post play" which centers around someone like Okafor. They played a game far more similar to Toronto-era Chris Bosh than Shaq, and that's a really significant difference in terms of the spots they most frequently used and how they got their points. They supplemented with backdowns, they didn't go to that as a primary MO, and when they did it, it usually wasn't a drawn-out isolation.

My point is this: Okafor's brand of backdown isolation isn't actually a focal element of what made earlier post players very strong, and we've learned a lot about post offense in the intervening years. It's very clear that perimeter-oriented offense was a better choice even BEFORE the 2005 rules changes, and even before the 5-second backdown rule was implemented, for that matter. Post isolation is slow, weakly correlated with shifting of the defense and aside from a handful of stellar legends in league history, not what actually made post players a worthy option.

They're mostly at their best as reactive players. They hit the offensive glass, they screen and roll, they dive cut when perimeter guys penetrate so they can get lobs and dump-offs. They cut off-ball for feeds leading to quick moves and they hustle in transition to get out ahead of the D or to come slicing in as trailers. They're almost never very good for offense in the role of INITIATOR or ISOLATOR. That's the point.

If Okafor's major contribution is going to only be isolation offense, in ANY era where he isn't Shaq/Wilt/Kareem, that's not going to be as worthwhile as a perimeter star. We've learned. Post play was misapplied in a number of different situations historically. Just because it WAS an emphasis doesn't mean that it was the best choice, and again, the style element is very different. The strength of post players aside from the precious few isn't isolation at all, it's the other stuff which they can offer an offense.

The trick for Okafor is going to be more about what else he can add. He needs to improve out of the PnR some, and he needs more time playing with a competent backcourt. Then we can see what he really is. All around the league right now, we're seeing a REVIVAL of the post, the exact opposite of what you're saying... but teams seem to have generally learned that volume isolation is a weak tool regardless of location. The Spurs even shifted away from it with Duncan, going to using him more as a decoy to develop a broader set because it was a more effective tool even with a guy nominally a strong post player. Better to use him in PnR and as a post/repost/swing kind of player unless there was a good mismatch, because shy of Shaq-type dominance, that's a more reliable and effective set.

The 90s were an era of focus for post players because we had the talent. 84-92, teams drafted Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq and Zo. Of course you're going to see an era of focus on the post when you have that much talent in the league at the position. We're starting to see some of that again with KP, Towns, Embiid, Okafor, Nicholson, Vucevic, another rise in wing post action, Dwight, Denver's folk, etc, etc, etc.

Gotta have the talent to have the focus. You wouldn't be making that comment had Oden and Bynum remained healthy. It's an issue of availability more than anything else, not of rules.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#37 » by mtron929 » Tue Nov 1, 2016 11:10 pm

I think most people agree that players can make a tremendous leap in their games from when they are 19/20 years old to when they are 27/28 years old. However, it seems like most fans are very close-minded when it comes to the kind of player that Okafor will become. That is, he is not afforded the same leeway that guys like Myles Turner, Devin Booker, D'Angelo Russell get when it comes to potentially fixing weaknesses in their games. And that there is nothing that he can do to become a top player in the NBA because at 20 years old, his career trajectory is pretty much known already (whereas with other young players, the sky is the limit). Pretty weird.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#38 » by ALL HAIL » Tue Nov 1, 2016 11:42 pm

Boston should've traded that third pick (Brown) for him.

Horford would've been the perfect four for him to play alongside -- veteran leader, jumpshooter, good defense.

Ainge missed an opportunity to really improve that team by passing on Okafor.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#39 » by jonjames » Tue Nov 1, 2016 11:47 pm

LALifer49 wrote:Has any 17/7 decent efficiency rookie ever gotten as little love as this guy?

Here is a prospect I was very excited about coming out of college, who in a very bad situation with no guard help put up good numbers while displaying amazing post moves. His numbers once he gets even a passable pg like ish smith are even better, and if I recall pretty efficient.

Yet no one is listing him as a big of the future or even one of the top prospects of his draft. He has the potential to be a prolific scorer. To quote the black eyed peas "where is the love?"



Can't think of anyone quite honestly..this preconceived notion that his overall potential is limited is absolute bogus. His weakness albeit big almost always gets greatly exaggerated while his strengths and skillset gets marginalized to discredit his true value to the team..which leads me to believe ppl simply don't like the guy due to his punk attitude and off putting behavior he displayed his rookie season but you simply cant deny the offensive talent he possesses at 20 yrs old. As he matures he should be able to improve on his weakness and become a more well rounded player. It also doesn't help that he shares the spotlight with another fellow center on the team with higher upside/talent which most of the sixers/nba fanbase seem to be salivating over. As the season progresses and sixers starts tallying up more losses they will start looking to address the logjam at 4 and 5 spot.. I think it would be quite premature for the sixers to try and deal Okafor this season at least..they have almost all the pieces set for the future, they are just one really good guard away from being title contenders. For now just try to figure out the right fit and build up the chemistry. On final note, I don't see any reason why okafor and embiid can't coexist in the frontcourt together they compliment each quite well(okafor down low w/ embiid being able to switch out out from inside and out) that has potential to be the best frontcourt tandem in the league.
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Re: Jahlil Okafor 

Post#40 » by Curmudgeon » Wed Nov 2, 2016 12:36 am

jonjames wrote: (okafor down low w/ embiid being able to switch out out from inside and out) that has potential to be the best frontcourt tandem in the league.


We are all waiting breathlessly for this to happen.
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