Defense wins championships: Trade Vuc for a SF. Ibaka at the 5, Gordon at the 4

[bigshawn]

I will start by saying defense wins championships and for that reason, Vuc and Fournier simply are not winning basketball players.

Vuc is a gifted scoring and we needed his offense to beat philly, but I'm tired of little ass guards driving right at him and laying the ball up in HIS face. Don't tell me about perimeter defense cause Vuc isn't even putting his hands up.

I was disgusted watching Embiid back him down and score at will and then on the our next possession not only block his shot but coral the rebound. Biz came in and totally shut him down two consecutive turnovers. If you have to be substitued at the end of games for defense you should'nt be a starting center.

We need Biz's energy and offensive rebounding. More importantly, his INTIMIDATION. Vuc doesn't intimidate anyone in the league.

Fournier cant play D and is a total ballhog. He and Vuc are extremely soft bball players.

Trade Vuc for a SF. Start Ibaka at 5, AG at the 4, and have at 3 big rotation of BIZ, Ibaka, and AG. New SF from VUC trade at 3.

I'm not sure what to do with Evan, I simply don't like his game. He's a poor man Harden to me. He might score 20, but guaranteed to give up 30 while he's out there. (how do you average 29 a game and not make any of the 3 All NBA-teams. No defense that's how and in my opinion that's Fournier)

[Patrick1978]

I will start by saying defense wins championships and for that reason, Vuc and Fournier simply are not winning basketball players.

Vuc is a gifted scoring and we needed his offense to beat philly, but I'm tired of little ass guards driving right at him and laying the ball up in HIS face. Don't tell me about perimeter defense cause Vuc isn't even putting his hands up.

I was disgusted watching Embiid back him down and score at will and then on the our next possession not only block his shot but coral the rebound. Biz came in and totally shut him down two consecutive turnovers. If you have to be substitued at the end of games for defense you should'nt be a starting center.

We need Biz's energy and offensive rebounding. More importantly, his INTIMIDATION. Vuc doesn't intimidate anyone in the league.

Fournier cant play D and is a total ballhog. He and Vuc are extremely soft bball players.

Trade Vuc for a SF. Start Ibaka at 5, AG at the 4, and have at 3 big rotation of BIZ, Ibaka, and AG. New SF from VUC trade at 3.

I'm not sure what to do with Evan, I simply don't like his game. He's a poor man Harden to me. He might score 20, but guaranteed to give up 30 while he's out there. (how do you average 29 a game and not make any of the 3 All NBA-teams. No defense that's how and in my opinion that's Fournier)

I like your idea
But for what sf?
George?Gay?Gallinari?
The magic won t trade fournier
He is our best offensive player plus he just signed an extension

[cedric76]

+ trade mario for a bag of chips

[pepe1991]

I think that Vučević is next in line to go, maybe Hezonja too.
That being said Biyombo is godawful on offense. Dude can't catch a ball. He will never be able to play starter min. He also can't pass well enough, especially when you put him next to black hole that Ibaka on offense is ( Ibaka in 119 min has 1 assist,he is carrer 0,6 apg player ). Also Biyombo ,by stats in this few regular season games is bad on defense. Same with Ibaka. They don't contest shots well enough, they don't block shots at all and Ibaka now can't rebound at all (5,3 rpg in 30mpg ! ).

About Evan, he got so much open looks last year from Oladipos dribble penetration kickouts. He is great spot up shooter but too sow for SG. He is overmatched every game . His TS is 10% lower than last year. He looks more like player that should come off bench than player who is SG starter.

In reality Oladipo and Sabonis trade were horrific.
Harris trade was criminal.

[drsd]

Vučević leads the team in PER, has played well, and is a rebounding monster (a key defensive stat).

A) The team clearly is being built around Payton, Ibaka and Vučević. And nicely, these are the Magic's three best players over 4-games of play. All three have PERs above 15 putting them in the top 30 players at their position (i.e. they are playing starter-level NBA ball).

B-i) Fournier and Gordon have PERs below 15, meaning they are below average in the NBA. What is interesting is that at SG and SF, their PERs still have them in the top-30 at their position. This means that SGs and SFs are below league average compared to the other positions. (IMO: the PFs are particularly excellent early going to this season).

B-ii) Fournier and Gordon have not shot the ball well, Vučević and Ibaka have been OK, and Payton is still failing with his 3-ball. For Orlando to win games, they need more buckets. Orlando is dead last in FG% at 40.8%. That is bad.



So: in conclusion to the title of this thread, "Defense wins championships", for me the core problem is Offense. This team needs to score more efficiently. Orlando is 29th in points scored per game. The team is 15th in points surrendered per game.


..

[pepe1991]

Vučević leads the team in PER, has played well, and is a rebounding monster (a key defensive stat).

A) The team clearly is being built around Payton, Ibaka and Vučević. And nicely, these are the Magic's three best players over 4-games of play. All three have PERs above 15 putting them in the top 30 players at their position (i.e. they are playing starter-level NBA ball).

B-i) Fournier and Gordon have PERs below 15, meaning they are below average in the NBA. What is interesting is that at SG and SF, their PERs still have them in the top-30 at their position. This means that SGs and SFs are below league average compared to the other positions. (IMO: the PFs are particularly excellent early going to this season).

B-ii) Fournier and Gordon have not shot the ball well, Vučević and Ibaka have been OK, and Payton is still failing with his 3-ball. For Orlando to win games, they need more buckets. Orlando is dead last in FG% at 40.8%. That is bad.



So: in conclusion to the title of this thread, "Defense wins championships", for me the core problem is Offense. This team needs to score more efficiently. Orlando is 29th in points scored per game. The team is 15th in points surrendered per game.

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Don't use PER but TS% to see efficiency. Evan and Payton are below 50% ,that's horrific, Gordon at 50% is also below average, Hezonja and Biyombo are in that "they would fail to make D league roster" category right now.
Ibakas TS is solid however his tunnel vision is awful . dude has 1 assist in 119 min. ONE.
He also doesn't do anything special on defense at all, and he can't really rebound . To be 100% honest, he looks like Jason Smith at best outthere on offense and defense. That's not good for a player that will look at $25M + per year next year

[Orlwillbeback]

The problem with replacing Vuc with Bis in the lineup we have currently is that the offense would suffer even more. If they have no ability to score the ball then that takes away their incentive to play defense.

I agree Vuc is not a starting center in this league but I think he could be a very effective sixth man, offense guy off the bench. Just like Andrew Nicholson in Washington and Al Jefferson the last few seasons- those kinds of offensive minded centers/PFs are best used off the bench as instant offense.

Bismarck is nearly as good at defense as he is poor at offense. We need to get him back to what he was doing in Toronto when all he had to focus on was defense, rebounding, blocking shots and dunking the ball when he got it near the basket.

The problem with that is he is having to shoulder more of an offensive load because he is playing alongside other poor offensive players.

Fournier is not the problem. Far from it actually. He is not a great defender true but he is a knock down shooter and decent scorer and has nice size.

The team as a whole is suffering from a lack of space offensively.

[Bergmaniac]

Ibaka can't defend most 5s for a whole game. And without Vuc we will be the worst team in the league offensively.

Also Vucevic has been pretty decent on D this season IMO. Despite all the talk on this board how bad he's been defending he actually has the best DRTG among the main rotation players - http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612753/onoffcourt/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=1 . Best net rating too. Small sample size, sure, but still...

[OrlChamps2030]

This is where Hezonja playing so poorly hurts... We really needed him to be an effective rotation guy this season

[Gordon]

Magic have a bunch of role players playing roles that are behind thier capabilities. Also no alpha dog on this team. Someone who would bring the guys together, Magic lack leadership on the court.

[j_n]

I will start by saying defense wins championships and for that reason, Vuc and Fournier simply are not winning basketball players.

I stopped reading after that, those two were the biggest reason we won 35 games last year, people cry about Oladipo and Harris but they played horrible basketball when we were winning early on last year while Vuc and Fournier carried the team.

[Orlwillbeback]

Ibaka can't defend most 5s for a whole game. And without Vuc we will be the worst team in the league offensively.

Also Vucevic has been pretty decent on D this season IMO. Despite all the talk on this board how bad he's been defending he actually has the best DRTG among the main rotation players - http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612753/onoffcourt/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=1 . Best net rating too. Small sample size, sure, but still...

The Magic played pretty well with Vuc out last season.

[BadMofoPimp]

Team defense wins championships, not individual defense.

Magic had a top 5 defense with Meer, JJ, Ryan and Hedo playing key roles. But, use them in a team role and they served their purpose. Heck, Tobias Harris is being praised for his defense now. Because, he is part of a team defense. I don't see team play on this Magic team . . . yet. Vooch can be fine for this team if the team plays like a team. Bizmark is a fouling machine if given 30mpg.

[Def Swami]

This is where Hezonja playing so poorly hurts... We really needed him to be an effective rotation guy this season

Hezonja's plus/minus is -9 per game, -21 per 36. He's been an automatic negative any time he steps on the court. I never thought he'd be this bad and not sure the Magic did when they made this roster.

Combine that with Jeff Green who is also at -9.5 per game, that bench is doomed.

[Tayswagzzz]

Bah. I've talked trading Vuc before but I don't know if it's the best idea. We have crazy money locked in on Ibaka/Vuc/Biyombo together (It will only get higher if Ibaka resigns with us for $17-20 mil a year) and there is no way it makes sense to pay a bench player as much as Biyombo is making. We're investing a lot into those 3 and only 2 can start. Our roster is so weird.


Signing Jeff Green hurt our cap badly and he's still got a year left on his $15 mil contract. Idk if there is any way we can move Jeff Green. What contender can afford him?

[bigshawn]

Magic have a bunch of role players playing roles that are behind thier capabilities. Also no alpha dog on this team. Someone who would bring the guys together, Magic lack leadership on the court.

This is so true. Unfortunately I think our GM hitched his wagon to the wrong person which is Payton. I like Payton because I was tired of miniature Jameer but he should have traded Payton instead of Oladipo. Then try to acquire a PG who can shoot.

[bigshawn]

Team defense wins championships, not individual defense.

Magic had a top 5 defense with Meer, JJ, Ryan and Hedo playing key roles. But, use them in a team role and they served their purpose. Heck, Tobias Harris is being praised for his defense now. Because, he is part of a team defense. I don't see team play on this Magic team . . . yet. Vooch can be fine for this team if the team plays like a team. Bizmark is a fouling machine if given 30mpg.

You give bad examples because you leave out the most important individual player on both teams which was Dwight and Andre Drummond. Those teams are anchored by a defensive Center so you're honestly making my point for me at least to start Biz

[OrlandoNed]

Bah. I've talked trading Vuc before but I don't know if it's the best idea. We have crazy money locked in on Ibaka/Vuc/Biyombo together (It will only get higher if Ibaka resigns with us for $17-20 mil a year) and there is no way it makes sense to pay a bench player as much as Biyombo is making. We're investing a lot into those 3 and only 2 can start. Our roster is so weird.


Signing Jeff Green hurt our cap badly and he's still got a year left on his $15 mil contract. Idk if there is any way we can move Jeff Green. What contender can afford him?

Green is not hurting the cap. His deal expires at the end of the year.

[Bergmaniac]

Team defense wins championships, not individual defense.

Magic had a top 5 defense with Meer, JJ, Ryan and Hedo playing key roles. But, use them in a team role and they served their purpose. Heck, Tobias Harris is being praised for his defense now. Because, he is part of a team defense. I don't see team play on this Magic team . . . yet. Vooch can be fine for this team if the team plays like a team. Bizmark is a fouling machine if given 30mpg.

You give bad examples because you leave out the most important individual player on both teams which was Dwight and Andre Drummond. Those teams are anchored by a defensive Center so you're honestly making my point for me at least to start Biz

Drummond is not really a defensive centre, he's pretty underwhelming on that end for all his physical gifts. Sure, he's a dominant rebounder but in terms of protecting the rim he's pretty average.

[BadMofoPimp]

Team defense wins championships, not individual defense.

Magic had a top 5 defense with Meer, JJ, Ryan and Hedo playing key roles. But, use them in a team role and they served their purpose. Heck, Tobias Harris is being praised for his defense now. Because, he is part of a team defense. I don't see team play on this Magic team . . . yet. Vooch can be fine for this team if the team plays like a team. Bizmark is a fouling machine if given 30mpg.

You give bad examples because you leave out the most important individual player on both teams which was Dwight and Andre Drummond. Those teams are anchored by a defensive Center so you're honestly making my point for me at least to start Biz

If you watch the games, Drummond really isn't elite on defense and is probably worse than Bizmark.