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Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI

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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#461 » by payitforward » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:19 am

Dat2U wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:
payitforward wrote:How many minutes, overall, were played by guys in the top 20 in RPM? W/o that info, it's not possible to gauge any correlation or failure of correlation.


Wall 7
Temple 25
Dudley 9
Porter 14
Nene 14
Gortat 19

Other than Nene all those guys got 24 + minutes per game. Kieff and Sessions were top 50 as well. That's a significant chunk of the roster.

I haven't really given any thought to if this is supportive of RPM or not. Just found it interesting.


Keep in mind the rest of the roster

Neal was one of the 10 worst players in the entire league.
Oubre, Eddie, Gooden, Humphries, Blair & Hollins all were poor performing backups.
Beal & Morris were near the very bottom of their respective positions among starters.
Sessions was a middle of the road backup. So were Anderson & Thornton although they barely played.

Hence we were a .500 team with an equal balance of quality players and guys who didn't play well or didn't belong at all.

Those 6 guys combined for 12,460 of our 19,680 minutes. Gary Neal played 800 minutes.

But your excerpt is a little misleading, Dark, because those rankings are by position. Overall, it was

Wall - 34
Temple - 174
Dudley - 63
Porter - 78
Nene - 46
Gortat - 64

In any case, looking at # of wins created by players on our team, we are supposed to have won 44 games. And the relative attribution of wins to players looks way off to me as well. RPM meh....
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#462 » by Dat2U » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:07 am

payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:
Wall 7
Temple 25
Dudley 9
Porter 14
Nene 14
Gortat 19

Other than Nene all those guys got 24 + minutes per game. Kieff and Sessions were top 50 as well. That's a significant chunk of the roster.

I haven't really given any thought to if this is supportive of RPM or not. Just found it interesting.


Keep in mind the rest of the roster

Neal was one of the 10 worst players in the entire league.
Oubre, Eddie, Gooden, Humphries, Blair & Hollins all were poor performing backups.
Beal & Morris were near the very bottom of their respective positions among starters.
Sessions was a middle of the road backup. So were Anderson & Thornton although they barely played.

Hence we were a .500 team with an equal balance of quality players and guys who didn't play well or didn't belong at all.

Those 6 guys combined for 12,460 of our 19,680 minutes. Gary Neal played 800 minutes.

But your excerpt is a little misleading, Dark, because those rankings are by position. Overall, it was

Wall - 34
Temple - 174
Dudley - 63
Porter - 78
Nene - 46
Gortat - 64

In any case, looking at # of wins created by players on our team, we are supposed to have won 44 games. And the relative attribution of wins to players looks way off to me as well. RPM meh....


I dunno where you get 44 wins from. We had below average play from the starting PF & SG spot. We had poor bench play (which IMO would subtract wins). I'd want to see more than a superficial analysis before drawing conclusions.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#463 » by Dark Faze » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:08 pm

payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:
But your excerpt is a little misleading, Dark, because those rankings are by position. Overall, it was

Wall - 34
Temple - 174
Dudley - 63
Porter - 78
Nene - 46
Gortat - 64

In any case, looking at # of wins created by players on our team, we are supposed to have won 44 games. And the relative attribution of wins to players looks way off to me as well. RPM meh....


Good catch on the overall rankings. I think that kind of shows as well that the top of player talent is significantly better than the rest. Being a top x player for a specific position doesn't necessarily mean what we're all kind of conditioned to think it means lately. The gradient is really really steep.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#464 » by payitforward » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:07 pm

Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
Keep in mind the rest of the roster

Neal was one of the 10 worst players in the entire league.
Oubre, Eddie, Gooden, Humphries, Blair & Hollins all were poor performing backups.
Beal & Morris were near the very bottom of their respective positions among starters.
Sessions was a middle of the road backup. So were Anderson & Thornton although they barely played.

Hence we were a .500 team with an equal balance of quality players and guys who didn't play well or didn't belong at all.

Those 6 guys combined for 12,460 of our 19,680 minutes. Gary Neal played 800 minutes.

But your excerpt is a little misleading, Dark, because those rankings are by position. Overall, it was

Wall - 34
Temple - 174
Dudley - 63
Porter - 78
Nene - 46
Gortat - 64

In any case, looking at # of wins created by players on our team, we are supposed to have won 44 games. And the relative attribution of wins to players looks way off to me as well. RPM meh....


I dunno where you get 44 wins from. We had below average play from the starting PF & SG spot. We had poor bench play (which IMO would subtract wins). I'd want to see more than a superficial analysis before drawing conclusions.

Sorry, I wasn't being very clear -- last column in that table is "wins". I went through it and added up the figures for all Washington players. The total was @44 wins (when in fact we'd won 41 games). I did have to estimate/parcel out for guys who played for more than one team last year.

It's still fair to describe that as "a superficial analysis" on my part, of course. W/o any insight into the factors, regression methods, etc. that define this metric it's hard to do anything more.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#465 » by Ruzious » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:40 pm

payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:Those 6 guys combined for 12,460 of our 19,680 minutes. Gary Neal played 800 minutes.

But your excerpt is a little misleading, Dark, because those rankings are by position. Overall, it was

Wall - 34
Temple - 174
Dudley - 63
Porter - 78
Nene - 46
Gortat - 64

In any case, looking at # of wins created by players on our team, we are supposed to have won 44 games. And the relative attribution of wins to players looks way off to me as well. RPM meh....


I dunno where you get 44 wins from. We had below average play from the starting PF & SG spot. We had poor bench play (which IMO would subtract wins). I'd want to see more than a superficial analysis before drawing conclusions.

Sorry, I wasn't being very clear -- last column in that table is "wins". I went through it and added up the figures for all Washington players. The total was @44 wins (when in fact we'd won 41 games). I did have to estimate/parcel out for guys who played for more than one team last year.

It's still fair to describe that as "a superficial analysis" on my part, of course. W/o any insight into the factors, regression methods, etc. that define this metric it's hard to do anything more.

Now that we have Morris - who you hate - replacing Dudley - who you love and Hump - who you like - not to mention Burke replacing Sessions - do you have them going from 41 wins to 36 or so?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#466 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:53 am

Ruzious wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
I dunno where you get 44 wins from. We had below average play from the starting PF & SG spot. We had poor bench play (which IMO would subtract wins). I'd want to see more than a superficial analysis before drawing conclusions.

Sorry, I wasn't being very clear -- last column in that table is "wins". I went through it and added up the figures for all Washington players. The total was @44 wins (when in fact we'd won 41 games). I did have to estimate/parcel out for guys who played for more than one team last year.

It's still fair to describe that as "a superficial analysis" on my part, of course. W/o any insight into the factors, regression methods, etc. that define this metric it's hard to do anything more.

Now that we have Morris - who you hate - replacing Dudley - who you love and Hump - who you like - not to mention Burke replacing Sessions - do you have them going from 41 wins to 36 or so?

I don't "hate" Markieff; I just look at his productivity, and it tells me he's not a particularly good player. In fact, he doesn't seem like a bad guy at all -- from what one can tell via glimpses of his interaction with teammates.

Dudley is good as a 3, his natural position (though he can also play at the 2); he's not a good PF. Not at all. And he wasn't a good PF for us. He's a tremendous shooter, yes (60.2 TS% for us last year -- that's #16 among all NBA players!). But, his rebounding was so bad as to nullify the positive effect of that shooting. 65+ guys played 20 minutes/game at the 4 last year -- only 4 of them rebounded worse than him.

Humphries played 475 minutes for us last year. He was irrelevant.

I'd say that if Markieff plays at the level of his best year, 2013-14, when he was below average but at least didn't cost his team wins but rather actually contributed a little bit, if that's how he plays, and if Nicholson plays at the level of his career-best year (last year), then we are at more or less the same level of PF production as last year -- or even a little better.

But, of course, I don't think it's terribly likely for both players to equal their career bests in the same year. Hence, in all, I'd say we are probably going to be a little worse (but not much) in productivity at that position this year than we were last year.

I have us at 39 wins this year. We're going to be a lot better at the backup Center position, and I expect both Otto and Oubre to improve, so that we'll be better at the 3 as well. But... we'll be at lot worse at the backup PG, and the backup SG is waaay up in the air.

Now... if Gortat and Mahinmi could be on the floor together for 15-20 minutes a game, and if Satoransky were to eat up both backup guard spots and produce at a league average for a guard, then in fact we could be a lot better than 39-43. Barring an enormous jump from Beal (not holding my breath), that's the only way we have a good season -- i.e. keep Morris/Nicholson/Smith to as few minutes as possible and keep Burke on the bench.

Unfortunately, both the above ideas are long shots. And if we have any significant injury time from Porter, Gortat, Mahinmi, and/or Wall, we could fall below my 39 win figure pretty easily. Hence, fingers crossed!
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#467 » by dangermouse » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:25 am

Warriors could use a rim protector.

If/when Mahinmi comes back and looks capable of being a starter... Whats the chances that we could fleece the W's of a nice prize with either Gortat or Mahinmi as bait?
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long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract


Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#468 » by Ruzious » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:50 pm

payitforward wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
payitforward wrote:Sorry, I wasn't being very clear -- last column in that table is "wins". I went through it and added up the figures for all Washington players. The total was @44 wins (when in fact we'd won 41 games). I did have to estimate/parcel out for guys who played for more than one team last year.

It's still fair to describe that as "a superficial analysis" on my part, of course. W/o any insight into the factors, regression methods, etc. that define this metric it's hard to do anything more.

Now that we have Morris - who you hate - replacing Dudley - who you love and Hump - who you like - not to mention Burke replacing Sessions - do you have them going from 41 wins to 36 or so?

I don't "hate" Markieff; I just look at his productivity, and it tells me he's not a particularly good player. In fact, he doesn't seem like a bad guy at all -- from what one can tell via glimpses of his interaction with teammates.

Dudley is good as a 3, his natural position (though he can also play at the 2); he's not a good PF. Not at all. And he wasn't a good PF for us. He's a tremendous shooter, yes (60.2 TS% for us last year -- that's #16 among all NBA players!). But, his rebounding was so bad as to nullify the positive effect of that shooting. 65+ guys played 20 minutes/game at the 4 last year -- only 4 of them rebounded worse than him.

Humphries played 475 minutes for us last year. He was irrelevant.

I'd say that if Markieff plays at the level of his best year, 2013-14, when he was below average but at least didn't cost his team wins but rather actually contributed a little bit, if that's how he plays, and if Nicholson plays at the level of his career-best year (last year), then we are at more or less the same level of PF production as last year -- or even a little better.

But, of course, I don't think it's terribly likely for both players to equal their career bests in the same year. Hence, in all, I'd say we are probably going to be a little worse (but not much) in productivity at that position this year than we were last year.

I have us at 39 wins this year. We're going to be a lot better at the backup Center position, and I expect both Otto and Oubre to improve, so that we'll be better at the 3 as well. But... we'll be at lot worse at the backup PG, and the backup SG is waaay up in the air.

Now... if Gortat and Mahinmi could be on the floor together for 15-20 minutes a game, and if Satoransky were to eat up both backup guard spots and produce at a league average for a guard, then in fact we could be a lot better than 39-43. Barring an enormous jump from Beal (not holding my breath), that's the only way we have a good season -- i.e. keep Morris/Nicholson/Smith to as few minutes as possible and keep Burke on the bench.

Unfortunately, both the above ideas are long shots. And if we have any significant injury time from Porter, Gortat, Mahinmi, and/or Wall, we could fall below my 39 win figure pretty easily. Hence, fingers crossed!

When I say you hate a player, I mean as a player - not a person. But since you brought it up, he has a felony assault case coming up, and he started a fight - during a game last season - with a teammate. Luckily, the teammate didn't let it escalate. And you will never understand the problem with Dudley's offense - because I've said it a dozen times. When a player doesn't shoot unless he's wide wide wide open and therefore doesn't take many shots, he's not really helping your offense. He doesn't spread the defense, because defenders can play off of him and clog passing lanes. And there's no way Dudley can play shooting guard in today's NBA with his lack of running ability and athleticism. And why do you think Gortat and Mahinmi could effectively play together 15-20 minutes a game - considering their offensive games blend in no way, shape, or form - and neither has played forward defensively.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#469 » by fishercob » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:06 pm

dangermouse wrote:Warriors could use a rim protector.

If/when Mahinmi comes back and looks capable of being a starter... Whats the chances that we could fleece the W's of a nice prize with either Gortat or Mahinmi as bait?


0%, give or take.

They're not giving up anyone that would be needed to make the salaries work. Expect them to play the buyout market after the trade deadline -- maybe someone like Asik. Maybe Emeka Okafor if he's really healthy. Zaza will also figure things out and be very effective -- even if differently so than Bogut.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#470 » by penbeast0 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:52 pm

fishercob wrote:
dangermouse wrote:Warriors could use a rim protector.

If/when Mahinmi comes back and looks capable of being a starter... Whats the chances that we could fleece the W's of a nice prize with either Gortat or Mahinmi as bait?


0%, give or take.

They're not giving up anyone that would be needed to make the salaries work. Expect them to play the buyout market after the trade deadline -- maybe someone like Asik. Maybe Emeka Okafor if he's really healthy. Zaza will also figure things out and be very effective -- even if differently so than Bogut.


What are you thinking guys? Didn't they sign JAVALE McGEE? They are set!
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#471 » by Dark Faze » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:12 pm

you guys remember when we turned down Beal for James Harden?

lmao
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#472 » by payitforward » Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:55 pm

Ruzious wrote:When I say you hate a player, I mean as a player - not a person. But since you brought it up, he has a felony assault case coming up, and he started a fight - during a game last season - with a teammate. Luckily, the teammate didn't let it escalate. And you will never understand the problem with Dudley's offense - because I've said it a dozen times. When a player doesn't shoot unless he's wide wide wide open and therefore doesn't take many shots, he's not really helping your offense. He doesn't spread the defense, because defenders can play off of him and clog passing lanes. And there's no way Dudley can play shooting guard in today's NBA with his lack of running ability and athleticism. And why do you think Gortat and Mahinmi could effectively play together 15-20 minutes a game - considering their offensive games blend in no way, shape, or form - and neither has played forward defensively.

Morris -- those things are true, and they're not good. To say the least. And I'm not the most likely apologist for Markieff! All I meant was that he seems to get along well with his teammates and to be liked by them.

Dudley -- "you will never understand the problem with Dudley's offense.... When a player doesn't shoot unless he's wide wide wide open and therefore doesn't take many shots, he's not really helping your offense. He doesn't spread the defense, because defenders can play off of him and clog passing lanes." What's not to understand? Still, if that player shoots an eFG% of .58, he helps more than if he shoots an eFG% of .53. But I wasn't trying to make a case for Dudley. I know he can't play regularly at the 2, but he can play there a little bit situationally. In any case, he certainly can't play the 4!

Gortat & Mahinmi: I agree that it's unlikely they could play together. What I meant to say was that if they could do so it would be good for the team.

Really that was my overall point: it will take some very unlikely things happening for the season to turn out at all well.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#473 » by dangermouse » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:45 am

fishercob wrote:
dangermouse wrote:Warriors could use a rim protector.

If/when Mahinmi comes back and looks capable of being a starter... Whats the chances that we could fleece the W's of a nice prize with either Gortat or Mahinmi as bait?


0%, give or take.

They're not giving up anyone that would be needed to make the salaries work. Expect them to play the buyout market after the trade deadline -- maybe someone like Asik. Maybe Emeka Okafor if he's really healthy. Zaza will also figure things out and be very effective -- even if differently so than Bogut.



If Mek gets healthy that would be great, i'd love to see him on the Ws
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long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract


Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#474 » by montestewart » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:39 pm

dangermouse wrote:
fishercob wrote:
dangermouse wrote:Warriors could use a rim protector.

If/when Mahinmi comes back and looks capable of being a starter... Whats the chances that we could fleece the W's of a nice prize with either Gortat or Mahinmi as bait?


0%, give or take.

They're not giving up anyone that would be needed to make the salaries work. Expect them to play the buyout market after the trade deadline -- maybe someone like Asik. Maybe Emeka Okafor if he's really healthy. Zaza will also figure things out and be very effective -- even if differently so than Bogut.



If Mek gets healthy that would be great, i'd love to see him on the Ws

I just noticed the "Make Wizards Bullets Again" hat. Well done. Did that just go up or am I late to the party?
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#475 » by dangermouse » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:24 am

I only recently made it over the weekend monte!

Feel free to use.
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long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract


Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#476 » by Dark Faze » Tue Nov 1, 2016 3:44 pm

Harrison Barnes quietly putting up decent numbers. And increased his usage significantly. He's up to 16 shots a game now.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#477 » by gambitx777 » Wed Nov 2, 2016 2:21 am

Dark Faze wrote:you guys remember when we turned down Beal for James Harden?

lmao

Hind sight. but yeah should have made that deal then.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#478 » by Dat2U » Wed Nov 2, 2016 5:28 am

gambitx777 wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:you guys remember when we turned down Beal for James Harden?

lmao

Hind sight. but yeah should have made that deal then.


Hindsight my ass. We didn't make the deal because we didn't want to pay Harden at the time.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#479 » by gambitx777 » Wed Nov 2, 2016 3:31 pm

Dat2U wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:you guys remember when we turned down Beal for James Harden?

lmao

Hind sight. but yeah should have made that deal then.


Hindsight my ass. We didn't make the deal because we didn't want to pay Harden at the time.

Again hind sight harden had his issues, he's over come them, beal's potential was so high back then, now its not.
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Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXXI 

Post#480 » by montestewart » Wed Nov 2, 2016 3:48 pm

gambitx777 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:Hind sight. but yeah should have made that deal then.


Hindsight my ass. We didn't make the deal because we didn't want to pay Harden at the time.

Again hind sight harden had his issues, he's over come them, beal's potential was so high back then, now its not.

Thinking of all the draft picks and young players EG and the Wizards have passed on/thrown away in favor of proven (mediocre) veterans, I can't help but recall this as a glaring exception. A team that could have had Curry, or Harden, or Leonard, or Draymond Green, etc. etc. Sure, lots of teams passed on some of these, but after a while it starts to add up for the Wizards.

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