Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming?

[Adelheid]

Im fine with KP not asking too much for the ball. Train himself to be an efficient off-ball/catch-and-shoot scorer but he will need to add bread-n'-butter moves that compliments his height/attributes like a high accuracy/money midrange move. He needs to find his real calling on defense. And honestly, I dont mind if he did not end up being the franchise player. We will need an alpha dog for that. KP is more like in the Duncan mould.

[Sprewell4Three]

Dudes are really out here tryna cap KPs potential already....its really wild to me

It's hilarious. Let's just hope the front office isn't infected with this terrible, defeatist attitude. This is why the smaller markets do a great job of cultivating talent; their fan bases and media aren't as impatient with their development.

But it all starts from the top (Dolan). He has created this attitude in the fan base.

[BodyCount]

You know I loved how Bulls looked running triangle, and their 72-10 season was the best basketball I watched in my entire life.

But this team will never get anywhere close to playing or resembling to anything compared to it. We've got Rose who's a pick and roll guy and sucks at three point shooting, Noah that can't do anything in post or paint, Our SG is nowhere near as athetic as either Jordan or Kobe and our SF is a ball hog, that can't move without the ball.Actually they're all quite bad at moving without the ball and too slow. And overall they're not great shooters either,, so even when the offense does get them some open looks, they aren't consistent enough to hit them and take big enough advantage of it for it to work into their favour.

Watching them doing all the off ball movement just gives me the impression they waste all their energy on it and they have no energy left after it for the shot.

While all of this may be true, none of these things are why the Knicks are losing.

If the 72-win Bulls team executed on offense just as well as they did before, but played defense like the Knicks are doing now, they would likely be a sub .500 team.

This defense has been inexcusable. They've gotten blown out to the Pistons without Reggie Jackson, they've gotten demolished/embarrassed by the Rockets twice already, barely beat the Grizzlies, who sat Conley most of the first half, didn't play Tony Allen, and started a bunch of no name players. NY needs to rely on offensive outbursts from Rose, Anthony, Porzingis, and/or Lee just to keep the score close enough to be in striking distance at the end of the game. That is NOT good.

Rose (who does need to think 'kick-out' more on his drive attempts), Anthony (who needs to stop isolating/posting less and spot up behind the arc and play defense more), and Kristap "Get me a 5 hour energy ASAP" Porzingis are difference makers offensively, but only if your team can play some semblance of standard NBA-level team defense and rebounding. The ball movement and playing off of each will come in time. The defense and rebounding on the other hand, is effort and technique. Rose & Noah has played under Thibdeau for years, they should know how to defend a pick & roll and how to operate in a functioning team defense.

Spoiler:

Phil Jackson passing on Thibdeau is another swing and miss as team president. It was unfathomable to me to see Jackson not even consider Thibdeau, when the last time the Knicks were really successful, Thibdeau was in charge of their defense. Jackson prioritize the triangle over everything, even over hiring a defensive genius. Porzingis is Jackson's only saving grace, and KP has been looking more like a long-term project (so far) this season than he did his rookie season. (I expected it, Almost every Knicks rookies takes drastic steps back in their second seasons.) Porzingis is a good player, but is the weakest player in NBA history. A PG could bump into him on a rebound attempt and he folds like a cheap lawn chair the second there is contact. He was weak last season, but seems to have gotten weaker. It could be a early-season condition thing, but to go along with his extreme lack of strength, his energy level has been VERY low. I've never seen a defense dynamo with low or inconsistent energy. His 3-point shooting and rebounding has been "meh" too. He has added a crossover though. Maybe next off-season he will develop a counter to the crossover.

I just want to see good basketball. Other than Linsanity and Woodson's 54-win season, I've seen everything but "good basketball" watching the Knicks since (at least since the 90s). Even in the 54-win season I knew this team wasn't going to be a threat in the playoffs because Carmelo Anthony and J.R. Smith were their two best scoring options. When a team needs to depend of J.R. Smith to be their second scorer, that is DESTINED to fail. This is why he can't get a deal with a team that doesn't have 3-4 clearly better offensive options.

At worst, I thought I would see an explosive offensive team (while everyone is healthy) and solid defense, but I had no idea I would see worse defense than with Amar'e, Bargnani, or Calderon. Bargnani looked better on defense than Noah or Porzingis this season. Now, Carmelo is entering that Amar'e stage of his career: Still good enough to be effective on offense, but a net-negative defensive player. Just the luck of a Knicks fan.

Hopefully, they can improve or this is going to be a VERY long season. Maybe longer than 17-win season, because at least they played solid defense, played decent early in the season, and Lance Thomas could actually still shoot.

When we got noah, lee and rose I thought: well noah and lee and even rose are certanly upgrades defensively on those 3 positions, and with Porzingis in the mix we should be in at least top 15- top or top 10 defenses in the league. With noah and porzingis boxing out, protecting the paint and blocking shots, teams will really strugle finishing around the rim, this just might look like that Indiana team with hibbert when we faced them in playoffs and Hibbert completely denied any penetration and we were just forced to outside shooting. With Carmelo putting effort on D, with Lee upgrading Aaron, with Rose upgrading Calderon, if they're forced to outside shooting, we should be abel to have them taking way more bad shots then previous years.

But it seems that for this crap to actually work that way we would need Bradley, Leonard, Tony allen, prime Camby and Mutombo lol.

About our defense, I really have no words for it.

[Sark]

Dudes are really out here tryna cap KPs potential already....its really wild to me

Imagine if we actually drafted Steph back then. We would've ripped him apart for not being the GOAT shooter by year 2, and wanted him to come off the bench.

[Jay10]

People really expected the Knicks to look like the Spurs/Warriors after 4 games, when they are going up against teams with rosters that have been together for multiple years, and the only other team with as much turnover as the Knicks in terms of roster are the Nets?

Frank and other NY beat writers aren't going to mention that important factor.

@ Frank trying to create a fake feud between Hornacek and Phil to the fans.

The problem is the team not knowing each other well enough on the defensive end when it comes to switching or staying with their man.

[Phish Tank]

KP's usage doesn't impact his defense. It doesn't impact the fact that he simply just needs to turn on NBA 2k to understand the tendencies of the opponents he's defending. He doesn't need to read a scouting report to realize Ryan Anderson only shoots 3s and isn't a threat to drive. He doesn't need to watch film. He doesn't need the coach to tell him to dominate. He may end up being a beta, but as long as he makes an impact on the court, he'll be worth every penny he'll get.

And none of the above involves the triangle offense, pick-and-roll offense, Carmelo Anthony, Derrick Rose, or Joakim Noah.

[Knicks_Fan2]

Dudes are really out here tryna cap KPs potential already....its really wild to me

Imagine if we actually drafted Steph back then. We would've ripped him apart for not being the GOAT shooter by year 2, and wanted him to come off the bench.

He would've definitely been a throw-in in the Melo deal.

[dakomish23]

Rose really not that bad don't blame dude for calling his number the offense is trash. Idk wtf Phil did but the team looks completely different than the one that played against Memphis Saturday.

He can still get to the rim, but production wise he's been bad. One could easily make the argument that a big reason why the offense is trash is because Rose is the one who's running it.

It's not a big reason. It's THE big reason.

[Knicks_Fan2]

Dudes are really out here tryna cap KPs potential already....its really wild to me

It's hilarious. Let's just hope the front office isn't infected with this terrible, defeatist attitude. This is why the smaller markets do a great job of cultivating talent; their fan bases and media aren't as impatient with their development.

But it all starts from the top (Dolan). He has created this attitude in the fan base.

Agreed. He is the primary problem.

[K_ick_God]

The best argument is that it's not essential for KP to be a top scorer. If he's a good scorer and becomes a very good paint defender, he's a piece of the title puzzle.

Scoring is big but it's far from everything. Leonard was not some dominant scorer early on. Be a taller that KP.

Melo's career was built around being a top scorer and it's going to end kind of badly it seems. And he never had a ton of success even in his prime.

KP's not there yet to be a 2nd option on a talent upgraded team.

As for Melo, his decline is apparent, he's not providing lift anymore.

He's got time and room to improve. We have to let him.

[thebuzzardman]

and i'm most upset about kp because who really cares about the rest of these players. this team at it's best was doing nothing this year. he represents hope. if he can't improve then we're really nowhere.

But don't you want KP to be put in the best positions to improve instead of trying to fit around two insanely high usage players?

Agreed. KP needs a different line up around him. Unfortunately, these guys aren't it.

I'd rather the Knicks go:

C: KP (he'll get eaten alive on post ups, but who cares)
PF: WillieB
SF: Kuz
SG: CLee
PG Baker (before you think I'm insane)

KP's best assets are shooting from outside and protecting the rim. It's also just about absolutely baked into his DNA to play European style basketball, which is to share the ball, make cuts and not hog it, too much.

The guys above are the players who play KP's style.

The unit above would be entertaining as hell. Also win about 20 games. Which is good for the PG's in the draft.

Should have traded Melo. Should have passed on Rose. Should have passed on Jennings. I like Holiday.

Other guys who can be in the rotation:
N'Dour - hard cuts, shares the ball
Holiday - hard cuts, can shoot, shares the ball, plays D
KOQ - limited doses, but good passing

Noah - cooked, he's done
Rose - ball hog, he's done
Melo - Not the player he thinks he is, ball hog
Jennings - plays dumb

I'd rather enjoy basketball being executed and take the loses. Maybe at the deadline we can move all the vets minus CLee.

[dablackprodigy]

Its just 4 games

[F N 11]

If the Knicks were 1-3 but were competing but just losing because of a pass here or a play there, then sure, no reason to have premonitions of doom, but they are looking as dazed and confused as they've been since Larry Brown. The "a lot of new players and time to gel" argument is an excuse cause plenty of other teams have major overhauls and they are fine.

100% agree with this

[god shammgod]

dolan is why kp is neither guarding his man or the lane. got it.

[F N 11]

Its just 4 games

This excuse is getting old too. Defense and effort aint no "Its just 4 games".

[JXL]

and i'm most upset about kp because who really cares about the rest of these players. this team at it's best was doing nothing this year. he represents hope. if he can't improve then we're really nowhere.

But don't you want KP to be put in the best positions to improve instead of trying to fit around two insanely high usage players?

Agreed. KP needs a different line up around him. Unfortunately, these guys aren't it.

I'd rather the Knicks go:

C: KP (he'll get eaten alive on post ups, but who cares)
PF: WillieB
SF: Kuz
SG: CLee
PG Baker (before you think I'm insane)

KP's best assets are shooting from outside and protecting the rim. It's also just about absolutely baked into his DNA to play European style basketball, which is to share the ball, make cuts and not hog it, too much.

The guys above are the players who play KP's style.

The unit above would be entertaining as hell. Also win about 20 games. Which is good for the PG's in the draft.

Should have traded Melo. Should have passed on Rose. Should have passed on Jennings. I like Holiday.

Other guys who can be in the rotation:
N'Dour - hard cuts, shares the ball
Holiday - hard cuts, can shoot, shares the ball, plays D
KOQ - limited doses, but good passing

Noah - cooked, he's done
Rose - ball hog, he's done
Melo - Not the player he thinks he is, ball hog
Jennings - plays dumb

I'd rather enjoy basketball being executed and take the loses. Maybe at the deadline we can move all the vets minus CLee.

Well damn.

[Knicked_Up]

This team man. Jesus christ.

[K_ick_God]

Also KP has 78 possible games to get better this year lol.

But nope it won't happen overnight. Santa Claus isn't real either.

[HEZI]

There should be bans sent out for people that criticize KP. This is why I can't stand The fan base sometimes. We're always turning on our young players. It's only been 4 games into KPs 2nd year and we already have talk of him already reaching his potential... wow

Dude I'm on KP bandwagon, but I'm not delusional either. Dude looks like **** on D and like pussy on O - it is what it is, the sooner KP wakes and bullys the fck up the better! If waking him up means fanbase talking **** about him - lets accomplish that.

I think the criticism against KP these first four games is valid (though it is only four games), but I think people forget to realize he is still only 21. The negative for KP is that he seems way too passive thus far. He's got that dog in him deep down, but he's also a really nice, sweet kid who doesn't want to rock the boat, especially with the new vets in town. I think it's fair to say he is the most talented person on this team but at 21 with his personality, he tends to float around, trying to be the perfect teammate. The positive is that again, he is only 21. At 20, he was so impressive to us that we all thought he would immediately become an all-star. Take his most frequently mentioned comparison, Dirk, and you'll remember he didn't really put it together until year 3 (it's true, look it up). It's tempting to want to think he will be this juggernaut this season, but he really is progressing fine in my opinion. I agree it's frustrating to see him float around when he should be the man on this team, but KP is honestly the least of my worries about this team, by a country mile.

I agree

Like I said before, this is a man's league and KP just needs to grow into a man. Sure I will criticize him and point out his flaws on a game to game basis, but I'm not giving up on the kid. KP has his flaws and makes mistakes but he is still the building block of the franchise. 21 years old he's still a young pup.

As far as my real concern, it's Phil Jackson and his stubborn philosophy about forcing the triangle. The way he is applying pressure on the coaches to implement his system and forcing the triangle down everybody's throat is holding this team back big time. Until we pull the plug on the whole triangle system we are not going anywhere.

[thebuzzardman]

But don't you want KP to be put in the best positions to improve instead of trying to fit around two insanely high usage players?

Agreed. KP needs a different line up around him. Unfortunately, these guys aren't it.

I'd rather the Knicks go:

C: KP (he'll get eaten alive on post ups, but who cares)
PF: WillieB
SF: Kuz
SG: CLee
PG Baker (before you think I'm insane)

KP's best assets are shooting from outside and protecting the rim. It's also just about absolutely baked into his DNA to play European style basketball, which is to share the ball, make cuts and not hog it, too much.

The guys above are the players who play KP's style.

The unit above would be entertaining as hell. Also win about 20 games. Which is good for the PG's in the draft.

Should have traded Melo. Should have passed on Rose. Should have passed on Jennings. I like Holiday.

Other guys who can be in the rotation:
N'Dour - hard cuts, shares the ball
Holiday - hard cuts, can shoot, shares the ball, plays D
KOQ - limited doses, but good passing

Noah - cooked, he's done
Rose - ball hog, he's done
Melo - Not the player he thinks he is, ball hog
Jennings - plays dumb

I'd rather enjoy basketball being executed and take the loses. Maybe at the deadline we can move all the vets minus CLee.

Well damn.

I've decided for the full nuclear option early. Screw this.