Stanley Johnson Thread

[Blkbrd671]

While i wanted to bump the overreaction thread, i think this discussion deserves its own.

First off, this has nothing to do with his struggles as he is technically a rookie + 4 games, so those expecting Lebron need a slap of reality. He's still very much the same SG/SF that oozes potential and versatility. This moreso has to do with SJ's production not catching up to his mouth and repercussions of that .

The reason i believe SJ will be traded follows:

1.) SJ thinks he's the best player on our team, he just hasn't had the opportunity to show case it. Some recent comments from SVG in reference to mook and harris, but also a little too specific

“He’s a very mature guy and he’s very professional in his approach,” Van Gundy said of Harris. “He’s a guy who’s always looking to get better. He looks at his game realistically. He figures out where he needs to improve and he works on it. He’s not an excuse guy. It’s not outside forces and everything else. Marcus is the same way. It’s one of the reasons those guys play well. They’re willing to look at their performances realistically and make improvements rather than blaming everything and everyone else.”

I can understand that this is a reach but when you combine it with

2.) Several times this year SVG, who likes to keep things in house, has mentioned more than once SJ's stubbornness and in the offseason SJ failed to listen to SVG and obviously didn't focus on the right development in the offseason. SJ has failed to separate himself from role players on this team and the value he did bring defensively seems to have diminished. ie. SJ's minutes are in jeopardy

3.) Realistically, if SJ is going to be a star, he needs to go to a team like Brooklyn or some team that is desperate for a SG/SF that they'll force feed SJ minutes. On the Pistons, he's going to be behind the starters , and i don't believe mentally SJ can take that, and may start to become disgruntled.

4.) If we are going to take that next step, we need someone ready now. SJ probably has the most value in that he's on a cheap contract and has the potential to be a franchise player but needs development.If SVG is looking to make a move, he'd probably bring the most value back and potential to get a franchise player.


To be honest, i am surprised this thread hasn't been created. Just when you thought you could count on the haterz.

I'd strongly consider Booker for SJ , and looking at the log jam, SJ would fit nicely at their forward position and bookers shooting in this offense .

[Han Solo]

Wow. He's defintely talking about SJ. Hadn't seen that. Wow man.

[MrBigShot]

I'm not ready to trade him (unless a no-brainer pops up obviously). The reasoning being that he's a 20 year old 2nd year player. Crappy organizations like the Kings give up on lotto picks and ship them off after a season, and we aren't a crappy organization. I don't think he's as bad as he's played thus far this season, and even if he doesn't live up to the expectations so many fans had of him coming into this season he can still be a solid player.

The dilemma is that he's someone that needs to the ball in his hands to be effective, but he's not good enough to warrant putting the ball in his hands on a team looking to win and potentially get HCA in the playoffs. So he has to contribute in other ways, but he hasn't really done that. He's been practically invisible and the criticism is definitely warranted. His belief in his talent/potential versus his actual talent/potential are really, really far apart. In his mind he's going to be a superstar, and he just doesn't have the combination of physical tools and skill set to get there.

He needs to stop thinking and let the game come naturally to him. If scoring opportunities via transition, cuts and spot ups are there then he can capitalize on them. If not he needs to try to contribute on defense and rebounds. Impacting the game without being a featured part of the offense is something practically every young player has to go through at some point and he's no exception.

[The Moose]

It became pretty clear what the situation was during the preseason. A lot of people were trying to claim the preseason had no correlation to the regular season, but SVG has been frustrated by SJ for a while now, that is clear.

[Blkbrd671]

It became pretty clear what the situation was during the preseason. A lot of people were trying to claim the preseason had no correlation to the regular season, but SVG has been frustrated by SJ for a while now, that is clear.

well not really. the rotations in the preseason are nothing like they are in the regular season and it was pretty clear because SVG indicated that no one had separated themselves in camp. RB got more burn than SJ in the preseason, yet SJ is still starting. Before you claim its because RB's back, SVG indicated he was torn between sitting RB or MG as inactive for first game.

There is correlation between the preseason and regular season, but its not nearly as dramatic of a "preview" as some would make it seem. Preseason's are used by coaches to tinker against less prepared teams

[Blkbrd671]

Wow. He's defintely talking about SJ. Hadn't seen that. Wow man.

not that i know SVG, but he tends to be coy and indirect. I need to go back through his quotes, but i feel like he's done this before with Andre and RJ.

[MotownMadness]

He's so young he could even just be rebellious and stubborn since losing his mom for all we know. I lost a parent pretty young and it turned me hateful and into a big ****. That's just a complete theory as I have no idea what's really going on behind the scenes with those two but he is still just a kid even though he doesn't look like it so who knows.

[The Moose]

It became pretty clear what the situation was during the preseason. A lot of people were trying to claim the preseason had no correlation to the regular season, but SVG has been frustrated by SJ for a while now, that is clear.

well not really. the rotations in the preseason are nothing like they are in the regular season and it was pretty clear because SVG indicated that no one had separated themselves in camp. RB got more burn than SJ in the preseason, yet SJ is still starting. Before you claim its because RB's back, SVG indicated he was torn between sitting RB or MG as inactive for first game.

There is correlation between the preseason and regular season, but its not nearly as dramatic of a "preview" as some would make it seem. Preseason's are used by coaches to tinker against less prepared teams

Its not always a preview, but in the case of SJ here, it seems like it was pretty indicative of something bigger. There were multiple comments from SVG that one could infer pretty clearly were aimed towards SJ. His play is also no different from the pre-season so far.

At the end of the day, in the pre-season, it was clear SJ's leash had been shortened and he was being pulled quicker. That has not changed as we've transitioned to the regular season.

[Blkbrd671]

It became pretty clear what the situation was during the preseason. A lot of people were trying to claim the preseason had no correlation to the regular season, but SVG has been frustrated by SJ for a while now, that is clear.

well not really. the rotations in the preseason are nothing like they are in the regular season and it was pretty clear because SVG indicated that no one had separated themselves in camp. RB got more burn than SJ in the preseason, yet SJ is still starting. Before you claim its because RB's back, SVG indicated he was torn between sitting RB or MG as inactive for first game.

There is correlation between the preseason and regular season, but its not nearly as dramatic of a "preview" as some would make it seem. Preseason's are used by coaches to tinker against less prepared teams

Its not always a preview, but in the case of SJ here, it seems like it was pretty indicative of something bigger. There were multiple comments from SVG that one could infer pretty clearly were aimed towards SJ. His play is also no different from the pre-season so far.

At the end of the day, in the pre-season, it was clear SJ's leash had been shortened and he was being pulled quicker. That has not changed as we've transitioned to the regular season.

except that if it was indicative of something bigger, SJ would not be starting as RB got the most burn in the preseason. Furthermore your way off base, the reason why SJ's minutes are limited is

1.) Beno is a huge upgrade over Blake, we ran sets for SJ last year because simply we had no other choice in the 2nd unit.

2.) SVG's determination to keep one of mook and harris in the game, which means that Leur is the first off the bench. Per KL

Stan Van Gundy is intent on keeping one of Marcus Morris and Tobias Harris on the floor at all times – at least in that portion of games where the outcome is in doubt and foul trouble or other circumstances allow him to. That means Stanley Johnson has gotten almost all of his minutes so far behind Kentavious Caldwell-Pope at shooting guard and not many behind Morris at small forward. When Morris sits, Harris slides over and takes his spot. Allowing Van Gundy to employ that rotation strategy: his faith in Leuer. Leuer is playing a greater role than the man he replaced as backup power forward, Anthony Tolliver, because Van Gundy can find more ways to use him. He’s bigger than Tolliver, so his rebounding is important to the second unit. He can move his feet well enough to defend more mobile power forwards – he did a very credible job in the fourth quarter of Tuesday’s win over the Knicks for a stretch of a handful of possessions against Carmelo Anthony – and Van Gundy isn’t giving up anything from a perimeter shooting standpoint with Leuer on the floor. He’s essentially using a three-man rotation at the two forward spots with Harris, Morris and Leuer. I think there are going to be matchups down the road that encourages him to use Leuer a little less and Johnson a little more, but his desire to keep one of Morris and Harris on the court almost surely means more of Johnson’s minutes will come at the two than the three. And those factors also play into a greater likelihood that the rotation stays at nine than expands to 10. If one of the perimeter wing options – Bullock, Darrun Hilliard or rookie Michael Gbinije – had done something to separate himself from the group during preseason, we might be talking a different way. Until something changes the equation, my guess is we’ll see Van Gundy stick with a nine-man playing group primarily.

[The Moose]

well not really. the rotations in the preseason are nothing like they are in the regular season and it was pretty clear because SVG indicated that no one had separated themselves in camp. RB got more burn than SJ in the preseason, yet SJ is still starting. Before you claim its because RB's back, SVG indicated he was torn between sitting RB or MG as inactive for first game.

There is correlation between the preseason and regular season, but its not nearly as dramatic of a "preview" as some would make it seem. Preseason's are used by coaches to tinker against less prepared teams

Its not always a preview, but in the case of SJ here, it seems like it was pretty indicative of something bigger. There were multiple comments from SVG that one could infer pretty clearly were aimed towards SJ. His play is also no different from the pre-season so far.

At the end of the day, in the pre-season, it was clear SJ's leash had been shortened and he was being pulled quicker. That has not changed as we've transitioned to the regular season.

except that if it was indicative of something bigger, SJ would not be starting as RB got the most burn in the preseason. Furthermore your way off base, the reason why SJ's minutes are limited is

1.) Beno is a huge upgrade over Blake, we ran sets for SJ last year because simply we had no other choice in the 2nd unit.

2.) SVG's determination to keep one of mook and harris in the game, which means that Leur is the first off the bench. Per KL

Stan Van Gundy is intent on keeping one of Marcus Morris and Tobias Harris on the floor at all times – at least in that portion of games where the outcome is in doubt and foul trouble or other circumstances allow him to. That means Stanley Johnson has gotten almost all of his minutes so far behind Kentavious Caldwell-Pope at shooting guard and not many behind Morris at small forward. When Morris sits, Harris slides over and takes his spot. Allowing Van Gundy to employ that rotation strategy: his faith in Leuer. Leuer is playing a greater role than the man he replaced as backup power forward, Anthony Tolliver, because Van Gundy can find more ways to use him. He’s bigger than Tolliver, so his rebounding is important to the second unit. He can move his feet well enough to defend more mobile power forwards – he did a very credible job in the fourth quarter of Tuesday’s win over the Knicks for a stretch of a handful of possessions against Carmelo Anthony – and Van Gundy isn’t giving up anything from a perimeter shooting standpoint with Leuer on the floor. He’s essentially using a three-man rotation at the two forward spots with Harris, Morris and Leuer. I think there are going to be matchups down the road that encourages him to use Leuer a little less and Johnson a little more, but his desire to keep one of Morris and Harris on the court almost surely means more of Johnson’s minutes will come at the two than the three. And those factors also play into a greater likelihood that the rotation stays at nine than expands to 10. If one of the perimeter wing options – Bullock, Darrun Hilliard or rookie Michael Gbinije – had done something to separate himself from the group during preseason, we might be talking a different way. Until something changes the equation, my guess is we’ll see Van Gundy stick with a nine-man playing group primarily.

It was indicative of a change between this season, and last season. SJ's leash and room for error looks clearly lower to me. As you've pointed out this is in part due to the improvement of the players surrounding him, however the other aspect is his poor play thus far, stretching from pre-season to regular season. Had he substantially improved, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[DBC10]

All I know is, we can't keep running SJ to play out of position at the SG spot. I'd rather play Hilliard or Gbenejie if Bullock wasn't so broke right now.

But I guess SVG thinks otherwise. Which I'll trust until things really start going terribly.

There is some part of me that misses healthy Meeks, he really took the pressure off of shooting when KCP was having an off night.

[pistontr]

He has no value. Just wait


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[Blkbrd671]

Its not always a preview, but in the case of SJ here, it seems like it was pretty indicative of something bigger. There were multiple comments from SVG that one could infer pretty clearly were aimed towards SJ. His play is also no different from the pre-season so far.

At the end of the day, in the pre-season, it was clear SJ's leash had been shortened and he was being pulled quicker. That has not changed as we've transitioned to the regular season.

except that if it was indicative of something bigger, SJ would not be starting as RB got the most burn in the preseason. Furthermore your way off base, the reason why SJ's minutes are limited is

1.) Beno is a huge upgrade over Blake, we ran sets for SJ last year because simply we had no other choice in the 2nd unit.

2.) SVG's determination to keep one of mook and harris in the game, which means that Leur is the first off the bench. Per KL

Stan Van Gundy is intent on keeping one of Marcus Morris and Tobias Harris on the floor at all times – at least in that portion of games where the outcome is in doubt and foul trouble or other circumstances allow him to. That means Stanley Johnson has gotten almost all of his minutes so far behind Kentavious Caldwell-Pope at shooting guard and not many behind Morris at small forward. When Morris sits, Harris slides over and takes his spot. Allowing Van Gundy to employ that rotation strategy: his faith in Leuer. Leuer is playing a greater role than the man he replaced as backup power forward, Anthony Tolliver, because Van Gundy can find more ways to use him. He’s bigger than Tolliver, so his rebounding is important to the second unit. He can move his feet well enough to defend more mobile power forwards – he did a very credible job in the fourth quarter of Tuesday’s win over the Knicks for a stretch of a handful of possessions against Carmelo Anthony – and Van Gundy isn’t giving up anything from a perimeter shooting standpoint with Leuer on the floor. He’s essentially using a three-man rotation at the two forward spots with Harris, Morris and Leuer. I think there are going to be matchups down the road that encourages him to use Leuer a little less and Johnson a little more, but his desire to keep one of Morris and Harris on the court almost surely means more of Johnson’s minutes will come at the two than the three. And those factors also play into a greater likelihood that the rotation stays at nine than expands to 10. If one of the perimeter wing options – Bullock, Darrun Hilliard or rookie Michael Gbinije – had done something to separate himself from the group during preseason, we might be talking a different way. Until something changes the equation, my guess is we’ll see Van Gundy stick with a nine-man playing group primarily.

It was indicative of a change between this season, and last season. SJ's leash and room for error looks clearly lower to me. As you've pointed out this is in part due to the improvement of the players surrounding him, however the other aspect is his poor play thus far, stretching from pre-season to regular season. Had he substantially improved, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Your moving goal post.

you initially were chastising those who claim there is no or barely a correlation between the pre and regular season and used SJ as a example of a players poor play in the preseason transferring over to the regular season, yet there are countless examples of players who have had poor or good preseasons to have the reverse during regular season. So there are huge holes in that logic.

Also his usage is down because of players around him, his minutes are down because leur has taken the minutes behind morris that SJ used too.
The discussion is the correlation between preseason and regular season your trying to tie the preseason to the regular season and the only correlation between the 2 is that his play has been lackluster, yet there are countless examples of players who didn't have good preseason and are having good regular seasons. So your logic has errors. Furthermore as

[Blkbrd671]

All I know is, we can't keep running SJ to play out of position at the SG spot. I'd rather play Hilliard or Gbenejie if Bullock wasn't so broke right now.

But I guess SVG thinks otherwise. Which I'll trust until things really start going terribly.

There is some part of me that misses healthy Meeks, he really took the pressure off of shooting when KCP was having an off night.

i think RB gets a serious look when he gets back.

[Pharaoh]

While i wanted to bump the overreaction thread, i think this discussion deserves its own.

First off, this has nothing to do with his struggles as he is technically a rookie + 4 games, so those expecting Lebron need a slap of reality. He's still very much the same SG/SF that oozes potential and versatility. This moreso has to do with SJ's production not catching up to his mouth and repercussions of that .

The reason i believe SJ will be traded follows:

1.) SJ thinks he's the best player on our team, he just hasn't had the opportunity to show case it. Some recent comments from SVG in reference to mook and harris, but also a little too specific

“He’s a very mature guy and he’s very professional in his approach,” Van Gundy said of Harris. “He’s a guy who’s always looking to get better. He looks at his game realistically. He figures out where he needs to improve and he works on it. He’s not an excuse guy. It’s not outside forces and everything else. Marcus is the same way. It’s one of the reasons those guys play well. They’re willing to look at their performances realistically and make improvements rather than blaming everything and everyone else.”

I can understand that this is a reach but when you combine it with

2.) Several times this year SVG, who likes to keep things in house, has mentioned more than once SJ's stubbornness and in the offseason SJ failed to listen to SVG and obviously didn't focus on the right development in the offseason. SJ has failed to separate himself from role players on this team and the value he did bring defensively seems to have diminished. ie. SJ's minutes are in jeopardy

3.) Realistically, if SJ is going to be a star, he needs to go to a team like Brooklyn or some team that is desperate for a SG/SF that they'll force feed SJ minutes. On the Pistons, he's going to be behind the starters , and i don't believe mentally SJ can take that, and may start to become disgruntled.

4.) If we are going to take that next step, we need someone ready now. SJ probably has the most value in that he's on a cheap contract and has the potential to be a franchise player but needs development.If SVG is looking to make a move, he'd probably bring the most value back and potential to get a franchise player.


To be honest, i am surprised this thread hasn't been created. Just when you thought you could count on the haterz.
I'd strongly consider Booker for SJ , and looking at the log jam, SJ would fit nicely at their forward position and bookers shooting in this offense .

To the bold:

Why trade him if that's true?

Develop him - that's what rookie contracts are for

Sent from my SM-J110F using RealGM mobile app

[Blkbrd671]

While i wanted to bump the overreaction thread, i think this discussion deserves its own.

First off, this has nothing to do with his struggles as he is technically a rookie + 4 games, so those expecting Lebron need a slap of reality. He's still very much the same SG/SF that oozes potential and versatility. This moreso has to do with SJ's production not catching up to his mouth and repercussions of that .

The reason i believe SJ will be traded follows:

1.) SJ thinks he's the best player on our team, he just hasn't had the opportunity to show case it. Some recent comments from SVG in reference to mook and harris, but also a little too specific

“He’s a very mature guy and he’s very professional in his approach,” Van Gundy said of Harris. “He’s a guy who’s always looking to get better. He looks at his game realistically. He figures out where he needs to improve and he works on it. He’s not an excuse guy. It’s not outside forces and everything else. Marcus is the same way. It’s one of the reasons those guys play well. They’re willing to look at their performances realistically and make improvements rather than blaming everything and everyone else.”

I can understand that this is a reach but when you combine it with

2.) Several times this year SVG, who likes to keep things in house, has mentioned more than once SJ's stubbornness and in the offseason SJ failed to listen to SVG and obviously didn't focus on the right development in the offseason. SJ has failed to separate himself from role players on this team and the value he did bring defensively seems to have diminished. ie. SJ's minutes are in jeopardy

3.) Realistically, if SJ is going to be a star, he needs to go to a team like Brooklyn or some team that is desperate for a SG/SF that they'll force feed SJ minutes. On the Pistons, he's going to be behind the starters , and i don't believe mentally SJ can take that, and may start to become disgruntled.

4.) If we are going to take that next step, we need someone ready now. SJ probably has the most value in that he's on a cheap contract and has the potential to be a franchise player but needs development.If SVG is looking to make a move, he'd probably bring the most value back and potential to get a franchise player.


To be honest, i am surprised this thread hasn't been created. Just when you thought you could count on the haterz.
I'd strongly consider Booker for SJ , and looking at the log jam, SJ would fit nicely at their forward position and bookers shooting in this offense .

To the bold:

Why trade him if that's true?

Develop him - that's what rookie contracts are for

Sent from my SM-J110F using RealGM mobile app

RJ- ready now
Mook-Ready now
TH- Ready now
Leur-Ready now
Baynes-Ready Now

KCP & Andre- Sometimes ready now

This is of course based on a very small sample size of games this season but i believe our team is ready now to take that next step in the post season, we'd most certainly be a contender if we could swing a trade for a more ready now player than SJ, and SJ+1st would be able to bring that in.


I also don't think that SJ can develop into that franchise player if he remains our 6th man or limited on this team. Mook and HArris aren't going any where and while KCP maybe going somewhere, as you know, realistic replacements are hard to find. IF we chose to run with SJ and not resign KCP, we'd be taking a huge risk.


SJ+1st for Okafor

Harris goes to SF , mook goes to bench. We have quite a bit of flexibility in terms of what position to address as we have a lot of versatility on our roster.

[The Moose]

except that if it was indicative of something bigger, SJ would not be starting as RB got the most burn in the preseason. Furthermore your way off base, the reason why SJ's minutes are limited is

1.) Beno is a huge upgrade over Blake, we ran sets for SJ last year because simply we had no other choice in the 2nd unit.

2.) SVG's determination to keep one of mook and harris in the game, which means that Leur is the first off the bench. Per KL

It was indicative of a change between this season, and last season. SJ's leash and room for error looks clearly lower to me. As you've pointed out this is in part due to the improvement of the players surrounding him, however the other aspect is his poor play thus far, stretching from pre-season to regular season. Had he substantially improved, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Your moving goal post.

you initially were chastising those who claim there is no or barely a correlation between the pre and regular season and used SJ as a example of a players poor play in the preseason transferring over to the regular season, yet there are countless examples of players who have had poor or good preseasons to have the reverse during regular season. So there are huge holes in that logic.

Also his usage is down because of players around him, his minutes are down because leur has taken the minutes behind morris that SJ used too.
The discussion is the correlation between preseason and regular season your trying to tie the preseason to the regular season and the only correlation between the 2 is that his play has been lackluster, yet there are countless examples of players who didn't have good preseason and are having good regular seasons. So your logic has errors. Furthermore as

I'm not moving the goal posts at all actually, I stated during the pre-season that It looked like SVG was losing faith in SJ, and that his leash was being shortened. Whether his leash being shortened is due to the improvement of the roster or SVG just getting tired of his play style is irrelevant in the discussion.

I simply said, that it is likely to carry over to the regular season. Other posters conversely said that the preseason has no relation to the regular season. So answer me this, has SVG's treatment of SJ changed from pre-season to regular season?

[TurboTitan]

SJ, KCP and our main bench guys for Klay

[Pharaoh]

While i wanted to bump the overreaction thread, i think this discussion deserves its own.

First off, this has nothing to do with his struggles as he is technically a rookie + 4 games, so those expecting Lebron need a slap of reality. He's still very much the same SG/SF that oozes potential and versatility. This moreso has to do with SJ's production not catching up to his mouth and repercussions of that .

The reason i believe SJ will be traded follows:

1.) SJ thinks he's the best player on our team, he just hasn't had the opportunity to show case it. Some recent comments from SVG in reference to mook and harris, but also a little too specific



I can understand that this is a reach but when you combine it with

2.) Several times this year SVG, who likes to keep things in house, has mentioned more than once SJ's stubbornness and in the offseason SJ failed to listen to SVG and obviously didn't focus on the right development in the offseason. SJ has failed to separate himself from role players on this team and the value he did bring defensively seems to have diminished. ie. SJ's minutes are in jeopardy

3.) Realistically, if SJ is going to be a star, he needs to go to a team like Brooklyn or some team that is desperate for a SG/SF that they'll force feed SJ minutes. On the Pistons, he's going to be behind the starters , and i don't believe mentally SJ can take that, and may start to become disgruntled.

4.) If we are going to take that next step, we need someone ready now. SJ probably has the most value in that he's on a cheap contract and has the potential to be a franchise player but needs development.If SVG is looking to make a move, he'd probably bring the most value back and potential to get a franchise player.


To be honest, i am surprised this thread hasn't been created. Just when you thought you could count on the haterz.
I'd strongly consider Booker for SJ , and looking at the log jam, SJ would fit nicely at their forward position and bookers shooting in this offense .

To the bold:

Why trade him if that's true?

Develop him - that's what rookie contracts are for

Sent from my SM-J110F using RealGM mobile app

RJ- ready now
Mook-Ready now
TH- Ready now
Leur-Ready now
Baynes-Ready Now

KCP & Andre- Sometimes ready now

This is of course based on a very small sample size of games this season but i believe our team is ready now to take that next step in the post season, we'd most certainly be a contender if we could swing a trade for a more ready now player than SJ, and SJ+1st would be able to bring that in.


I also don't think that SJ can develop into that franchise player if he remains our 6th man or limited on this team. Mook and HArris aren't going any where and while KCP maybe going somewhere, as you know, realistic replacements are hard to find. IF we chose to run with SJ and not resign KCP, we'd be taking a huge risk.


SJ+1st for Okafor

Harris goes to SF , mook goes to bench. We have quite a bit of flexibility in terms of what position to address as we have a lot of versatility on our roster.

To the bold:

Aren't you the same dude that claimed we were legit contenders NOW cause SVG said so?

IF you believe that - and you chastised me for days about it so you must - then trading SJ is incredibly short sighted

Sent from my SM-J110F using RealGM mobile app

[Blkbrd671]

It was indicative of a change between this season, and last season. SJ's leash and room for error looks clearly lower to me. As you've pointed out this is in part due to the improvement of the players surrounding him, however the other aspect is his poor play thus far, stretching from pre-season to regular season. Had he substantially improved, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Your moving goal post.

you initially were chastising those who claim there is no or barely a correlation between the pre and regular season and used SJ as a example of a players poor play in the preseason transferring over to the regular season, yet there are countless examples of players who have had poor or good preseasons to have the reverse during regular season. So there are huge holes in that logic.

Also his usage is down because of players around him, his minutes are down because leur has taken the minutes behind morris that SJ used too.
The discussion is the correlation between preseason and regular season your trying to tie the preseason to the regular season and the only correlation between the 2 is that his play has been lackluster, yet there are countless examples of players who didn't have good preseason and are having good regular seasons. So your logic has errors. Furthermore as

I'm not moving the goal posts at all actually, I stated during the pre-season that It looked like SVG was losing faith in SJ, and that his leash was being shortened. Whether his leash being shortened is due to the improvement of the roster or SVG just getting tired of his play style is irrelevant in the discussion.

I simply said, that it is likely to carry over to the regular season. Other posters conversely said that the preseason has no relation to the regular season. So answer me this, has SVG's treatment of SJ changed from pre-season to regular season?

Lets first address how you came up with this notion that "it looked like SVG was losing faith in the preseason". Since we are obviously talking on court, i would think Usage and minutes would probably be the biggest determining factor. We already know that SVG does not intend on using SJ/RB or whomever fills that roll as a high usage player based on the first 5 games and what has been said. So obviously minutes would be probably the biggest indicator.

From the preseason in which SJ played

21 mpg
15 mpg
34 mpg
9 mpg
24 mpg

Avg: 20.6 mpg
currently averaging : 19.0

How you derived anything from that spread i am sure has a pretty "unique" explanation and to your answer your question , yes SVG's treatment has changed with a HUGE! 1.6 minutes difference between pre and regular season. Again how you equate that to "losing faith" and a DIRECT CORRELATION of Preseason to regular season should have a interesting explanation.

The only thing that brings any sort of notion that SVG was losing faith in SJ was his comments during the preason, however there is nothing in the preseason that would indicate SJ was in fact in hott water BECAUSE AGAIN the preseason is used by coaches to tinker with lineups and team preparation is not nearly as excessive.