So how about Joel Embiid

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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#841 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Nov 8, 2016 8:30 pm

sixerswillrule wrote:He needs to clear up the turnover issues. It's been by far the biggest concern so far and a real killer in those close games. Hopefully it's just something experience will fix.


Agreed. Defensively he makes a lot of bad reads which lead to easy buckets but that's not to worrisome, that can be chalked up to being a young big. The TO issue is without a doubt his biggest thing he needs to work on. 7.5 TOs per 36 is an absurd amount. He had a bad TO problem in college as well. So he's definitely a TO prone player right now. I don't expect it to stay around 7.5 all year, but it's definitely something he really needs to work on, TOs are a killer for a team.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#842 » by MrBigShot » Tue Nov 8, 2016 8:40 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Eyeamok wrote: LOL you must be new here.You had the specter of Sam Bowie, Greg Olden and fans and people in the know saying the talent is there but the risk is too high. Yep it was not hard to draft Embiid. So much revisionist history in this thread.
I can find more if I want. Yeah his injuries are what lowered his stock from 1st place but he was still consensus top 3...
MrBigShot wrote: Drafting Embiid at #3 after Wiggins/Parker was an absolute no brainer at the time. After those 3 there was a massive drop in talent/potential.
spursscott wrote:Simple fact is it was a 3 player draft and no amount of revisionist history will change that.

Sorry, folks, your memory and your research let you down badly here:
http://www.nba.com/news/2014-consensus-mock-draft/
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/2014-nba-mock-draft-final-consensus/

For those to lazy to follow the link, ALL of the twelve most renowned mock sites (aside from DX) had Embiid out of the top 3 after his second injury announcement. The mocks eballa posted were way before that injury or else were some weird exceptions. By the day of the draft, it's completely, unequivocally clear that a vast majority of the major mocks had Embiid sliding past #3. End of story.


Exum was an unknown, and after the top 2 nobody else was in Embiid's stratosphere in terms of talent/potential.

There's no doubt in my mind 29/30 GMs would've taken him at 3rd. I say 29 because there's always one guy that ends up outsmarting himself.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#843 » by HotelVitale » Tue Nov 8, 2016 8:46 pm

E-Balla wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: For those to lazy to follow the link, ALL of the twelve most renowned mock sites (aside from DX) had Embiid out of the top 3 after his second injury announcement. The mocks eballa posted were way before that injury or else were some weird exceptions. By the day of the draft, it's completely, unequivocally clear that a vast majority of the major mocks had Embiid sliding past #3. End of story.
Looking at that NBA.com link 4 of the 12 had Embiid top 3 and basketball insiders only has 4 shown (and they're all also in the NBA.com one). Also neither of them have nbadraft.net there despite them being the 1st link that comes up when looking for mock drafts and them having Embiid 3rd. You are right that Embiid wasn't mocked top 3 on average the day of the draft but most fans had him top 3 (go check the draft thread and in between laughing at Embiid being mad you see people saying its a good pick) and knew he was good. When you're trying to lose he becomes the most obvious selection too. This wasn't a team that cared about waiting a year for someone they just did it with Noel.
The only ones that have Embiid top 3 aside from nbadraft.net and DX date from well before the draft and before his second injury announcement. And I feel like we've interacted enough on draft boards for you to know that nbadraft.net isn't respected by anyone at all.

In any case, that's some really weak backpedaling. You all were just shouting at the top of your lungs 'Embiid was the consensus pick!' and now you're insisting 'well WE all knew he was the obvious pick, even if GMs and draft professionals were being stupid.' The facts couldn't be clearer that draft writers thought Embiid was too risky for the 3rd pick, and that was WITH them taking into account that the Sixers were picking there. (Also fans always always think you should take the big upside guy.) Is it really that painful to say 'based on the evidence, it's clear that Hinkie took a gamble that wasn't super out there but was still a big risk that most didn't think was wise, and right now it looks like it paid off big.'
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#844 » by Marcus » Tue Nov 8, 2016 8:56 pm

HotelVitale wrote:In any case, that's some really weak backpedaling. You all were just shouting at the top of your lungs 'Embiid was the consensus pick!' and now you're insisting 'well WE all knew he was the obvious pick, even if GMs and draft professionals were being stupid.' The facts couldn't be clearer that draft writers thought Embiid was too risky for the 3rd pick, and that was WITH them taking into account that the Sixers were picking there. (Also fans always always think you should take the big upside guy.) Is it really that painful to say 'based on the evidence, it's clear that Hinkie took a gamble that wasn't super out there but was still a big risk that most didn't think was wise, and right now it looks like it paid off big.'


Confused on who you're arguing against. Is it "the experts" that saw Embiid as a risk or the people on the boards who saw Embiid as a no brainer?
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#845 » by HotelVitale » Tue Nov 8, 2016 8:58 pm

MrBigShot wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: For those to lazy to follow the link, ALL of the twelve most renowned mock sites (aside from DX) had Embiid out of the top 3 after his second injury announcement. The mocks eballa posted were way before that injury or else were some weird exceptions. By the day of the draft, it's completely, unequivocally clear that a vast majority of the major mocks had Embiid sliding past #3. End of story.
Exum was an unknown, and after the top 2 nobody else was in Embiid's stratosphere in terms of talent/potential. There's no doubt in my mind 29/30 GMs would've taken him at 3rd. I say 29 because there's always one guy that ends up outsmarting himself.

Don't know what more I could say here: the only reasonable evidence we have here is overwhelmingly clear that Embiid was considered a big enough risk that, at the very least, he wasn't a clear no-conscience pick at #3. There's no question that Embiid was considered by most the single best overall prospect, but there's also no question that the type and extent of his injuries were so concerning that most informed people thought he was too big a risk that high in the draft. Whatever is currently in your mind, you have nothing to rely on for the supposition that 29 of 30 GMs would've taken him there, and plenty of evidence to support that informed draft professionals thought he was too big a risk there.

(If you remember at the time, many people were convinced that it was medically impossible for a human of that size to overcome his foot and back injuries, and they were quoting all sorts of stuff about problems with his bone structure, etc. This was nothing remotely close to a Nerlens Noel situation where teams were pretty sure they'd just have to wait a year or so to get back a reasonably healthy player).
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#846 » by Mik317 » Tue Nov 8, 2016 9:05 pm

people really acting like they always was on the Embiid wagon?

gtfoh.

Go to any of the million **** Hinkie and all he stands for threads and often the Embiid pick was a major reason for hate. "yall should have drafted Randle. Yall should have traded down doe" and more.

I'm not even popping bottles yet because I need more than a few weeks before celebrating but don't start that mess yet.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#847 » by HotelVitale » Tue Nov 8, 2016 9:07 pm

Marcus wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: In any case, that's some really weak backpedaling. You all were just shouting at the top of your lungs 'Embiid was the consensus pick!' and now you're insisting 'well WE all knew he was the obvious pick, even if GMs and draft professionals were being stupid.' The facts couldn't be clearer that draft writers thought Embiid was too risky for the 3rd pick, and that was WITH them taking into account that the Sixers were picking there. (Also fans always always think you should take the big upside guy.) Is it really that painful to say 'based on the evidence, it's clear that Hinkie took a gamble that wasn't super out there but was still a big risk that most didn't think was wise, and right now it looks like it paid off big.'
Confused on who you're arguing against. Is it "the experts" that saw Embiid as a risk or the people on the boards who saw Embiid as a no brainer?
This post was directed at the three specific people who said it was 'revisionist history' to give Hinkie any credit because Embiid was the clear, no-second-thoughts, worldwide-agreement #3 pick. There's simply no argument to support that--it's just factually and demonstrably wrong, the fact that almost all mocks had Embiid at 5 or lower indicates beyond reasonable doubt there was at the very last a lack of general consensus that Embiid was a surefire #3 pick.

I don't have the time to go back and look at the realgm draft boards, but I'll say that a) I recall clearly that there was a ton of people who were certain that drafting Embiid was a debacle waiting to happen (even if his upside was super seductive) and b) that most casual fans on these boards (me included) generally prefer the high upside pick, and generally don't know a durn thing about injuries or hardcore sports medicine. I was all for Embiid at #3 but I know full well that cooler heads were making very reasonable argument against him.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#848 » by E-Balla » Tue Nov 8, 2016 9:53 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: For those to lazy to follow the link, ALL of the twelve most renowned mock sites (aside from DX) had Embiid out of the top 3 after his second injury announcement. The mocks eballa posted were way before that injury or else were some weird exceptions. By the day of the draft, it's completely, unequivocally clear that a vast majority of the major mocks had Embiid sliding past #3. End of story.
Looking at that NBA.com link 4 of the 12 had Embiid top 3 and basketball insiders only has 4 shown (and they're all also in the NBA.com one). Also neither of them have nbadraft.net there despite them being the 1st link that comes up when looking for mock drafts and them having Embiid 3rd. You are right that Embiid wasn't mocked top 3 on average the day of the draft but most fans had him top 3 (go check the draft thread and in between laughing at Embiid being mad you see people saying its a good pick) and knew he was good. When you're trying to lose he becomes the most obvious selection too. This wasn't a team that cared about waiting a year for someone they just did it with Noel.
The only ones that have Embiid top 3 aside from nbadraft.net and DX date from well before the draft and before his second injury announcement. And I feel like we've interacted enough on draft boards for you to know that nbadraft.net isn't respected by anyone at all.

In any case, that's some really weak backpedaling. You all were just shouting at the top of your lungs 'Embiid was the consensus pick!' and now you're insisting 'well WE all knew he was the obvious pick, even if GMs and draft professionals were being stupid.' The facts couldn't be clearer that draft writers thought Embiid was too risky for the 3rd pick, and that was WITH them taking into account that the Sixers were picking there. (Also fans always always think you should take the big upside guy.) Is it really that painful to say 'based on the evidence, it's clear that Hinkie took a gamble that wasn't super out there but was still a big risk that most didn't think was wise, and right now it looks like it paid off big.'

How does it look like it's paid off big? He's 5 games into his career on a minute restriction in 3 years. We all knew he can play that wasn't an issue. And yeah he took a big gamble but literally everyone else he could've taken was a gamble. Exum was completely unknown on a large level and the other guy "over" Embiid according to NBA.com was Vonleh (?) who was fringe top 10 to anyone who saw him play and went 9th (really makes you question the validity of these mocks that they put him that high). Embiid wasn't this guy other GMs were low on and he isn't some type of validation for Hinkie. Oh he took DX's BPA he's so great!
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#849 » by Snotbubbles » Tue Nov 8, 2016 9:54 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Marcus wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: In any case, that's some really weak backpedaling. You all were just shouting at the top of your lungs 'Embiid was the consensus pick!' and now you're insisting 'well WE all knew he was the obvious pick, even if GMs and draft professionals were being stupid.' The facts couldn't be clearer that draft writers thought Embiid was too risky for the 3rd pick, and that was WITH them taking into account that the Sixers were picking there. (Also fans always always think you should take the big upside guy.) Is it really that painful to say 'based on the evidence, it's clear that Hinkie took a gamble that wasn't super out there but was still a big risk that most didn't think was wise, and right now it looks like it paid off big.'
Confused on who you're arguing against. Is it "the experts" that saw Embiid as a risk or the people on the boards who saw Embiid as a no brainer?
This post was directed at the three specific people who said it was 'revisionist history' to give Hinkie any credit because Embiid was the clear, no-second-thoughts, worldwide-agreement #3 pick. There's simply no argument to support that--it's just factually and demonstrably wrong, the fact that almost all mocks had Embiid at 5 or lower indicates beyond reasonable doubt there was at the very last a lack of general consensus that Embiid was a surefire #3 pick.

I don't have the time to go back and look at the realgm draft boards, but I'll say that a) I recall clearly that there was a ton of people who were certain that drafting Embiid was a debacle waiting to happen (even if his upside was super seductive) and b) that most casual fans on these boards (me included) generally prefer the high upside pick, and generally don't know a durn thing about injuries or hardcore sports medicine. I was all for Embiid at #3 but I know full well that cooler heads were making very reasonable argument against him.


"GM says "You can't use a top 5 pick" on Joel Embiid: http://uproxx.com/dimemag/gm-says-you-cant-use-top-five-pick-on-joel-embiid/

"For the Cleveland Cavaliers and Milwaukee Bucks, their draft day decisions have become much easier. But for the Philadelphia 76ers, Orlando Magic and Utah Jazz, the same cannot be said.": http://www.basketballinsiders.com/joel-embiid-many-questions-no-answers/

I can dig up article after article. Embiid at 3 was no slam dunk. The navicular bone injury is a devastating injury for a big man to have.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#850 » by spursscott » Tue Nov 8, 2016 10:08 pm

Snotbubbles wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
Marcus wrote: Confused on who you're arguing against. Is it "the experts" that saw Embiid as a risk or the people on the boards who saw Embiid as a no brainer?
This post was directed at the three specific people who said it was 'revisionist history' to give Hinkie any credit because Embiid was the clear, no-second-thoughts, worldwide-agreement #3 pick. There's simply no argument to support that--it's just factually and demonstrably wrong, the fact that almost all mocks had Embiid at 5 or lower indicates beyond reasonable doubt there was at the very last a lack of general consensus that Embiid was a surefire #3 pick.

I don't have the time to go back and look at the realgm draft boards, but I'll say that a) I recall clearly that there was a ton of people who were certain that drafting Embiid was a debacle waiting to happen (even if his upside was super seductive) and b) that most casual fans on these boards (me included) generally prefer the high upside pick, and generally don't know a durn thing about injuries or hardcore sports medicine. I was all for Embiid at #3 but I know full well that cooler heads were making very reasonable argument against him.


"GM says "You can't use a top 5 pick" on Joel Embiid: http://uproxx.com/dimemag/gm-says-you-cant-use-top-five-pick-on-joel-embiid/

"For the Cleveland Cavaliers and Milwaukee Bucks, their draft day decisions have become much easier. But for the Philadelphia 76ers, Orlando Magic and Utah Jazz, the same cannot be said.": http://www.basketballinsiders.com/joel-embiid-many-questions-no-answers/

I can dig up article after article. Embiid at 3 was no slam dunk. The navicular bone injury is a devastating injury for a big man to have.

Look at that great quality reporting. Got to love the good old "A GM" stuff and D level sites playing devils advocate to get the click count up.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#851 » by E-Balla » Tue Nov 8, 2016 10:11 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Marcus wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: In any case, that's some really weak backpedaling. You all were just shouting at the top of your lungs 'Embiid was the consensus pick!' and now you're insisting 'well WE all knew he was the obvious pick, even if GMs and draft professionals were being stupid.' The facts couldn't be clearer that draft writers thought Embiid was too risky for the 3rd pick, and that was WITH them taking into account that the Sixers were picking there. (Also fans always always think you should take the big upside guy.) Is it really that painful to say 'based on the evidence, it's clear that Hinkie took a gamble that wasn't super out there but was still a big risk that most didn't think was wise, and right now it looks like it paid off big.'
Confused on who you're arguing against. Is it "the experts" that saw Embiid as a risk or the people on the boards who saw Embiid as a no brainer?
This post was directed at the three specific people who said it was 'revisionist history' to give Hinkie any credit because Embiid was the clear, no-second-thoughts, worldwide-agreement #3 pick. There's simply no argument to support that--it's just factually and demonstrably wrong, the fact that almost all mocks had Embiid at 5 or lower indicates beyond reasonable doubt there was at the very last a lack of general consensus that Embiid was a surefire #3 pick.

I don't have the time to go back and look at the realgm draft boards, but I'll say that a) I recall clearly that there was a ton of people who were certain that drafting Embiid was a debacle waiting to happen (even if his upside was super seductive) and b) that most casual fans on these boards (me included) generally prefer the high upside pick, and generally don't know a durn thing about injuries or hardcore sports medicine. I was all for Embiid at #3 but I know full well that cooler heads were making very reasonable argument against him.

Here's a thread if you want to see the consensus on Embiid:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382412&p=43273986&hilit=2014+Embiid#p43273986

Nothing revisionist about it.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#852 » by 76ciology » Wed Nov 9, 2016 12:04 am

There’s never been a time in history when we look back and say that the people who were censoring free speech were the good guys.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#853 » by Cappy_Smurf » Wed Nov 9, 2016 2:35 am

76ciology wrote:


Whoever made that is a genius. WoW.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#854 » by the_process » Wed Nov 9, 2016 8:33 am

76ciology wrote:


This is the best safe for work Vine I've ever seen.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#855 » by Scott Hall » Wed Nov 9, 2016 9:39 am

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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#856 » by QRich3 » Wed Nov 9, 2016 11:06 am

^ :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gotta love the kid. I'm rooting for him to have a great and healthy career, but people shouldn't be acting like he's already panned out and him being picked at #3 is already proven to be a great decision. At the time of the draft, there was little doubt that he had the talent, I don't know if this much this early, but mostly everyone agreed he'd likely be a star. The reason he wasn't picked #1 was, as stated, his long term health projection, and a 5 game stretch doesn't really solve those doubts.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#857 » by HartfordWhalers » Wed Nov 9, 2016 4:47 pm

E-Balla wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
Marcus wrote: Confused on who you're arguing against. Is it "the experts" that saw Embiid as a risk or the people on the boards who saw Embiid as a no brainer?
This post was directed at the three specific people who said it was 'revisionist history' to give Hinkie any credit because Embiid was the clear, no-second-thoughts, worldwide-agreement #3 pick. There's simply no argument to support that--it's just factually and demonstrably wrong, the fact that almost all mocks had Embiid at 5 or lower indicates beyond reasonable doubt there was at the very last a lack of general consensus that Embiid was a surefire #3 pick.

I don't have the time to go back and look at the realgm draft boards, but I'll say that a) I recall clearly that there was a ton of people who were certain that drafting Embiid was a debacle waiting to happen (even if his upside was super seductive) and b) that most casual fans on these boards (me included) generally prefer the high upside pick, and generally don't know a durn thing about injuries or hardcore sports medicine. I was all for Embiid at #3 but I know full well that cooler heads were making very reasonable argument against him.

Here's a thread if you want to see the consensus on Embiid:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382412&p=43273986&hilit=2014+Embiid#p43273986

Nothing revisionist about it.


Thats a thread started almost a year after the draft -- Sun Apr 12, 2015. That entire thread is after the fact (and done at a time when Embiid was supposed to be pretty much healed).

If you want to argue something is not revisionist after the fact analysis, you need something from the time pre draft (and post injury) of Embiid's draft. Otherwise it is revisionist after the fact.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#858 » by RatherUnique » Wed Nov 9, 2016 4:59 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
sixerswillrule wrote:He needs to clear up the turnover issues. It's been by far the biggest concern so far and a real killer in those close games. Hopefully it's just something experience will fix.


Agreed. Defensively he makes a lot of bad reads which lead to easy buckets but that's not to worrisome, that can be chalked up to being a young big. The TO issue is without a doubt his biggest thing he needs to work on. 7.5 TOs per 36 is an absurd amount. He had a bad TO problem in college as well. So he's definitely a TO prone player right now. I don't expect it to stay around 7.5 all year, but it's definitely something he really needs to work on, TOs are a killer for a team.
Rookies with high usage almost always turn the ball over a ton.

Superstars with high usage turn it over a ton :lol: so that's not surprising. His usage rate is 40% right now, higher than any season from Jordan. Of course he's turning the ball over at a ridiculous rate.

So if you're not worried about his defense you shouldn't be worried about the TOs either.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#859 » by RatherUnique » Wed Nov 9, 2016 5:04 pm

Mik317 wrote:people really acting like they always was on the Embiid wagon?

gtfoh.

Go to any of the million **** Hinkie and all he stands for threads and often the Embiid pick was a major reason for hate. "yall should have drafted Randle. Yall should have traded down doe" and more.

I'm not even popping bottles yet because I need more than a few weeks before celebrating but don't start that mess yet.

If people were concerned about his body holding up, then that's valid. I was in that boat. Still am actually.

If they were concerned about his actual basketball ability then you shouldn't even acknowledge them :lol: it was clear as day that he had all the tools.
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Re: So how about Joel Embiid 

Post#860 » by Snotbubbles » Wed Nov 9, 2016 5:29 pm

E-Balla wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
Marcus wrote: Confused on who you're arguing against. Is it "the experts" that saw Embiid as a risk or the people on the boards who saw Embiid as a no brainer?
This post was directed at the three specific people who said it was 'revisionist history' to give Hinkie any credit because Embiid was the clear, no-second-thoughts, worldwide-agreement #3 pick. There's simply no argument to support that--it's just factually and demonstrably wrong, the fact that almost all mocks had Embiid at 5 or lower indicates beyond reasonable doubt there was at the very last a lack of general consensus that Embiid was a surefire #3 pick.

I don't have the time to go back and look at the realgm draft boards, but I'll say that a) I recall clearly that there was a ton of people who were certain that drafting Embiid was a debacle waiting to happen (even if his upside was super seductive) and b) that most casual fans on these boards (me included) generally prefer the high upside pick, and generally don't know a durn thing about injuries or hardcore sports medicine. I was all for Embiid at #3 but I know full well that cooler heads were making very reasonable argument against him.

Here's a thread if you want to see the consensus on Embiid:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382412&p=43273986&hilit=2014+Embiid#p43273986

Nothing revisionist about it.


The last post in that thread is almost 2 months before his foot injury was diagnosed.

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