Political Roundtable Part XI

[montestewart]

PS, I see DC overwhelmingly voted to PASS the DC Statehood whatever. The State of New Columbia.
Anyone have an oponion on this?

I voted for it, and don't know any arguments against it that aren't primarily anti-democratic. If Trump wants to change some minds, he could get behind it, as that would set him apart from both major parties.

Our state motto will be Non in Paludem (Not in a Swamp)

[cammac]

My friend the total cost in China of a I Phone is less than 10% of cost the major components ....

There are options. Foxconn recently replaced nearly half its workforce with robots. Better to have automated facilities for 70k US workers making 2000/month than 70k Chinese workers making 700/month.

You do realize that this makes the point... where are those engineers that run the robots going to come from?

This is a pipedream that anything will happen quickly. You are in business - you know how long it takes. I just finished a consulting gig on building a manufacturing facility here - 10 years in the making. Not a complete success though - too hard to get the engineers.

It takes time for those engineers and millwrights to come up to speed. It takes time to get the manufacturing pipeline up to speed.

Returned last year from China after spending 10 years there the economy is in a shambles and will be getting worse and must depend on the internal economy more and more. They still throw people at problems and since they are no longer a low wage country products internally are more and more expensive.

They have pushed a nationalistic policy to keep the masses happy but that will come crashing down soon. They have overcapacity in every sector and very few companies are meeting technological advances to be competitive in a true economy. Trump would try to replicate the same policies and fail just as the Chinese are.

[Illmatic12]

Wow.. SVG pulling no punches

“I don't think anybody can deny this guy is openly and brazenly racist and misogynistic,” Van Gundy said. “We have just thrown a good part of our population under the bus, and I have problems with thinking this is where we are as a country.”

After he finished his rant, he said he didn’t feel like discussing tonight’s game against the Phoenix Suns (9, FSD).

Here are his full remarks, lightly edited:

“I didn’t vote for (George W.) Bush, but he was a good, honorable man with whom I had political differences, so I didn’t vote for him. But for our country to be where we are now, who took a guy who -- I don’t care what anyone says, I’m sure they have other reasons and maybe good reasons for voting for Donald Trump -- but I don’t think anybody can deny this guy is openly and brazenly racist and misogynistic and ethnic-centric, and say, ‘That’s OK with us, we’re going to vote for him anyway.'

“We have just thrown a good part of our population under the bus, and I have problems with thinking that this is where we are as a country. It’s tough on (the team), we noticed it coming in. Everybody was a little quiet, and I thought, ‘Well, maybe the game the other night.’ And so we talked about that, but then Aron Baynes said, ‘I don’t think that’s why everybody’s quiet. It’s last night.’

“It’s just, we have said -- and my daughters, the three of them -- our society has said, ‘No, we think you should be second-class citizens. We want you to be second-class citizens. And we embrace a guy who is openly misogynistic as our leader.' I don’t know how we get past that.


“Martin Luther King said, 'The arc of the moral universe is long, but bends toward justice.' I would have believed in that for a long time, but not today. … What we have done to minorities … in this election is despicable. I’m having a hard time dealing with it. This isn’t your normal candidate. I don’t know even know if I have political differences with him. I don’t even know what are his politics. I don’t know, other than to build a wall and 'I hate people of color, and women are to be treated as sex objects and as servants to men.' I don’t know how you get past that. I don’t know how you walk into the booth and vote for that.

“I understand problems with the economy. I understand all the problems with Hillary Clinton, I do. But certain things in our country should disqualify you. And the fact that millions and millions of Americans don’t think that racism and sexism disqualifies you to be our leader, in our country ... . We presume to tell other countries about human-rights abuses and everything else. We better never do that again, when our leaders talk to China or anybody else about human-rights abuses.

“We just elected an openly, brazen misogynist leader and we should keep our mouths shut and realize that we need to be learning maybe from the rest of the world, because we don’t got anything to teach anybody.

“It’s embarrassing. I have been ashamed of a lot of things that have happened in this country, but I can’t say I’ve ever been ashamed of our country until today. Until today. We all have to find our way to move forward, but that was -- and I’m not even trying to make a political statement. To me, that’s beyond politics.


“You don’t get to come out and talk about people like that, and then lead our country and have millions of Americans embrace you. I’m having a hard time being with people. I’m going to walk into this arena tonight and realize that -- especially in this state -- most of these people voted for the guy. Like, (expletive), I don’t have any respect for that. I don’t.

“And then you read how he was embraced by conservative Christians. Evangelical Christians. I’m not a religious guy, but what the hell Bible are they reading? I’m dead serious. What Bible are you reading? And you’re supposed to be — it’s different. There are a lot of different groups we can be upset at. But you’re Christians. You’re supposed to be — at least you pride yourself on being the moral compass of our society. And you said, ‘Yeah, the guy can talk about women like that. I’m fine with that.’ He can disparage every ethnic group, and I’m fine with that.

“Look, I don’t get it. And I’m having a hard time taking it. I’m just glad that the people I’m with here — and I’ll include you guys, too — that I like. Because I’m going to have a hard time. I will say, one point of pride, I live in Oakland County, Michigan, and I was surprised, but Oakland County voted for Clinton. At least I can look around say, ‘We weren’t the ones putting that guy in office.'

“It’s incredible. I don’t know how you go about it, if you’re a person of color today or a Latino. Because white society just said to you, again -- not like we haven’t forever -- but again, and emphatically, that I don’t think you deserve equality. We don’t think you deserve respect. And the same with women. That’s what we say today, as a country. We should be ashamed for what we stand for as the United States today.

“That’s it for me. I don’t have anything to say about the game tonight."

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2016/11/09/detroit-pistons-stan-van-gundy/93551178/

[tontoz]

We voted for a black president not once but twice, and he still has a higher approval rating than either white candidate, but all of a sudden we are a racist country because we elected Trump.

OK

[Upper Decker]

trying to talk to anyone who intended to vote Democrat or who supported them, Hillary and all, about the fact that Trump might win and that there was real frustration out there in the electorate that the Democrats weren't willing to address tended to prompt loud, emotional responses prompted by a shutting down of the conversation.

I encountered quite a bit of that myself, along with scoffing whenever I suggested that Democrats might try a little harder to court some of that "angry white vote." The outcomes in PA, WI, and MI say maybe they ought to try harder next time.

I intentionally distance myself from politics, but couldn't help to be drawn into the election last night. The phrase "angry white voter" was tossed around like it was a commonly used and easily interpreted phrase. I've never heard it, don't really know what its referencing, and wondering what compels white's to 1) anger and then 2) to vote republican because the anger. Anyone have any insight on this? Please don't take this as a race baiting question. This board is the only political exposure I get and I appreciate the level-headedness / insightful / respectful discussion.

[tontoz]

For the record Bill Clinton is my favorite President in recent memory. I didn't care about the fact that he cheated on Hillary. didn't care about Lewinsky. He was good at his job and that was all I cared about.

[pineappleheadindc]

We voted for a black president not once but twice, and he still has a higher approval rating than either white candidate, but all of a sudden we are a racist country because we elected Trump.

OK

I think it's always dangerous to ascribe motive to others' behavior. This is a good example (Trump voters = racist or sexist).

I think the truth is that the Democratic party -- and lots of others who support them -- are disconnected to a large chunk of America that voted Trump in. The secret for the future is to try and understand each other and you can't do that if you call someone a racist or sexist off the bat.

[amcoolio]

Not all Trump voters are racist. But racists are using Trump as a platform. My wife is Hispanic, college educated and we live in rural, all-white North Carolina. I legitimately fear for her when she goes to the store or goes to get gas. I don't need her to break down when people say "move back to Mexico" or "you're gonna be deported!". Believe it or not, that is the sentiment some rural white people have. Trump put so much fear mongering and "Mexicans and Muslims are bad" into people's brains. I will support Trump but he has to fix this issue.

[montestewart]

trying to talk to anyone who intended to vote Democrat or who supported them, Hillary and all, about the fact that Trump might win and that there was real frustration out there in the electorate that the Democrats weren't willing to address tended to prompt loud, emotional responses prompted by a shutting down of the conversation.

I encountered quite a bit of that myself, along with scoffing whenever I suggested that Democrats might try a little harder to court some of that "angry white vote." The outcomes in PA, WI, and MI say maybe they ought to try harder next time.

I intentionally distance myself from politics, but couldn't help to be drawn into the election last night. The phrase "angry white voter" was tossed around like it was a commonly used and easily interpreted phrase. I've never heard it, don't really know what its referencing, and wondering what compels white's to 1) anger and then 2) to vote republican because the anger. Anyone have any insight on this? Please don't take this as a race baiting question. This board is the only political exposure I get and I appreciate the level-headedness / insightful / respectful discussion.

I don't think there's a single definition, but it probably at least can be applied to whites, whether blue collar or not, who feel hurt by the current economy and free trade agreements, are not benefiting from the economic recovery they've been reading about, think that immigration (legal and illegal) is creating competition in their labor pool, making jobs they can fill more scarce and depressing wages, and they think Democrats (and elites in general, however they are defined) have taken them for granted and focus too much on international affairs, entitlements and minority issues. I know some people that fall into this group, it's not a made up phenomenon.

[Induveca]

My friend the total cost in China of a I Phone is less than 10% of cost the major components ....

There are options. Foxconn recently replaced nearly half its workforce with robots. Better to have automated facilities for 70k US workers making 2000/month than 70k Chinese workers making 700/month.

You do realize that this makes the point... where are those engineers that run the robots going to come from?

This is a pipedream that anything will happen quickly. You are in business - you know how long it takes. I just finished a consulting gig on building a manufacturing facility here - 10 years in the making. Not a complete success though - too hard to get the engineers.

It takes time for those engineers and millwrights to come up to speed. It takes time to get the manufacturing pipeline up to speed.

Again. Not manufacturing, assembly. It's very doable with partial robotics. See what Adidas is doing moving production home to Germany, and their shareholders love them for it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/adidas-to-sell-robot-made-shoes-from-2017

[montestewart]

We voted for a black president not once but twice, and he still has a higher approval rating than either white candidate, but all of a sudden we are a racist country because we elected Trump.

OK

Agreed, but a lot of messages widely viewed as explicitly racialist were employed by Trump, and his campaign very obviously attracted some explicitly racist supporters. Because of that, I can understand the fear of a new era of more mainstream acceptance of explicitly racist (and sexist) positions. Both parties sometimes benefit certain extreme voters. Time will tell if this is a real thing or not.

[tontoz]

Not all Trump voters are racist. But racists are using Trump as a platform. My wife is Hispanic, college educated and we live in rural, all-white North Carolina. I legitimately fear for her when she goes to the store or goes to get gas. I don't need her to break down when people say "move back to Mexico" or "you're gonna be deported!". Believe it or not, that is the sentiment some rural white people have. Trump put so much fear mongering and "Mexicans and Muslims are bad" into people's brains. I will support Trump but he has to fix this issue.

Sounds like the area you live in had a problem before Trump came into the picture.

[Illmatic12]

Not all Trump voters are racist. But racists are using Trump as a platform. My wife is Hispanic, college educated and we live in rural, all-white North Carolina. I legitimately fear for her when she goes to the store or goes to get gas. I don't need her to break down when people say "move back to Mexico" or "you're gonna be deported!". Believe it or not, that is the sentiment some rural white people have. Trump put so much fear mongering and "Mexicans and Muslims are bad" into people's brains. I will support Trump but he has to fix this issue.

And not just racists using him as a platform.. but people who sympathize with views that are misogynistic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic etc. It would be unfair to label all Trump supporters as such, but there is really no denying that those kinds of individuals make up a significant portion of his base.

In many parts of the country this is a fearful time for Muslim women who wear a hijab , for minorities and immigrants who own businesses, for people young or old who lives in the midst of maniacs that may feel activated by Trump's platform.

I'm not as worried about Trump himself as I am the people he will surround himself with in office, and the segments of the population that are drawn to his cult-of-personality.

[bsilver]

trying to talk to anyone who intended to vote Democrat or who supported them, Hillary and all, about the fact that Trump might win and that there was real frustration out there in the electorate that the Democrats weren't willing to address tended to prompt loud, emotional responses prompted by a shutting down of the conversation.

I encountered quite a bit of that myself, along with scoffing whenever I suggested that Democrats might try a little harder to court some of that "angry white vote." The outcomes in PA, WI, and MI say maybe they ought to try harder next time.

I intentionally distance myself from politics, but couldn't help to be drawn into the election last night. The phrase "angry white voter" was tossed around like it was a commonly used and easily interpreted phrase. I've never heard it, don't really know what its referencing, and wondering what compels white's to 1) anger and then 2) to vote republican because the anger. Anyone have any insight on this? Please don't take this as a race baiting question. This board is the only political exposure I get and I appreciate the level-headedness / insightful / respectful discussion.

The angry white voter is generally a subset of white voters. Those without college degrees that work in blue collar jobs. As the economy has changed over the last 30+ years, this group has seen their earnings, relative to inflation, decrease over these years while the earnings earnings of the college educated has increased. And, at the very top, is where you see a great accumulation of wealth.
There's a lot of reasons for wage stagnation and job loss, but race does play a factor, whether justified or not. Many see the influx of Hispanic workers, who have taken many of the low paying jobs, as decreasing wages for other workers. So, if there were less Hispanic workers, the wages of other blue collar workers would increase. Also, there are many Hispanic workers that have entered illegally, which adds a "criminal" element to their judgements relating to Hispanic workers. With regard to African Americans, there is wide spread anger over affirmative action. With less and less good paying jobs available for the non-college educated, white workers resent others getting preferential treatment. There is also resentment left over from the "welfare queen" days, before welfare reform, where it was possible to stay on welfare indefinitely, have lots of out-of-wedlock children, etc.
Why vote Republican?
African Americans and Hispanics make up important cores of the Democrats. Democrats are seen as catering to these constituencies, at the expense of whites.
Energy policy - Democrats want to address Climate Change by reducing use of carbon based fuels such as coal and oil. In some parts of the country, production of coal/oil are a major source of blue collar jobs. Republicans don't even admit that carbon products are causing climate changes.
Guns - This is an important issue to many white blue collar workers. Democrats are portrayed as limiting gun rights.
Elitism - Many at the very top as seen as being liberal. This is especially true in academia. White blue collar workers feel they are looked down at by the elite.
Religion - Democrats are more secular while Republicans give more attention to the religious. This angers some white blue collar workers.

[tontoz]

Not all Trump voters are racist. But racists are using Trump as a platform. My wife is Hispanic, college educated and we live in rural, all-white North Carolina. I legitimately fear for her when she goes to the store or goes to get gas. I don't need her to break down when people say "move back to Mexico" or "you're gonna be deported!". Believe it or not, that is the sentiment some rural white people have. Trump put so much fear mongering and "Mexicans and Muslims are bad" into people's brains. I will support Trump but he has to fix this issue.

And not just racists using him as a platform.. but people who sympathize with views that are misogynistic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic etc. It would be unfair to label all Trump supporters as such, but there is really no denying that those kinds of individuals make up a significant portion of his base.

In many parts of the country this is a fearful time for Muslim women who wear a hijab , for minorities and immigrants who own businesses, for people young or old who lives in the midst of maniacs that may feel activated by Trump's platform.

I'm not as worried about Trump himself as I am the people he will surround himself with in office, and the segments of the population that are drawn to his cult-of-personality.

If these people are such a sizable voting block then how did Obama get elected for 2 terms?

[Illmatic12]

Not all Trump voters are racist. But racists are using Trump as a platform. My wife is Hispanic, college educated and we live in rural, all-white North Carolina. I legitimately fear for her when she goes to the store or goes to get gas. I don't need her to break down when people say "move back to Mexico" or "you're gonna be deported!". Believe it or not, that is the sentiment some rural white people have. Trump put so much fear mongering and "Mexicans and Muslims are bad" into people's brains. I will support Trump but he has to fix this issue.

And not just racists using him as a platform.. but people who sympathize with views that are misogynistic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic etc. It would be unfair to label all Trump supporters as such, but there is really no denying that those kinds of individuals make up a significant portion of his base.

In many parts of the country this is a fearful time for Muslim women who wear a hijab , for minorities and immigrants who own businesses, for people young or old who lives in the midst of maniacs that may feel activated by Trump's platform.

I'm not as worried about Trump himself as I am the people he will surround himself with in office, and the segments of the population that are drawn to his cult-of-personality.

If these people are such a sizable voting block then how did Obama get elected for 2 terms?

They aren't always this much of a sizeable/visible voting block, that's the point.. a lot of those sympathizers were galvanized for this election cycle under Trump's umbrella. In 2012, we didn't see many KKK Grand Wizards tweeting support for Romney.

Trump successfully peddled fear and division like no candidate has done in recent memory.

[montestewart]

Not all Trump voters are racist. But racists are using Trump as a platform. My wife is Hispanic, college educated and we live in rural, all-white North Carolina. I legitimately fear for her when she goes to the store or goes to get gas. I don't need her to break down when people say "move back to Mexico" or "you're gonna be deported!". Believe it or not, that is the sentiment some rural white people have. Trump put so much fear mongering and "Mexicans and Muslims are bad" into people's brains. I will support Trump but he has to fix this issue.

And not just racists using him as a platform.. but people who sympathize with views that are misogynistic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic etc. It would be unfair to label all Trump supporters as such, but there is really no denying that those kinds of individuals make up a significant portion of his base.

In many parts of the country this is a fearful time for Muslim women who wear a hijab , for minorities and immigrants who own businesses, for people young or old who lives in the midst of maniacs that may feel activated by Trump's platform.

I'm not as worried about Trump himself as I am the people he will surround himself with in office, and the segments of the population that are drawn to his cult-of-personality.

If these people are such a sizable voting block then how did Obama get elected for 2 terms?

One theory is that Obama energized certain segments of the population to vote, period, and Clinton did not inspire that group to the same degree, while Trump inspired a different group of voters who were not inspired to vote by past candidates, Just a theory, but when you look at how close most elections actually are, you can see how one candidate losing 1% while another candidate gains 1% can alter the outcome.

[dckingsfan]

There are options. Foxconn recently replaced nearly half its workforce with robots. Better to have automated facilities for 70k US workers making 2000/month than 70k Chinese workers making 700/month.

You do realize that this makes the point... where are those engineers that run the robots going to come from?

This is a pipedream that anything will happen quickly. You are in business - you know how long it takes. I just finished a consulting gig on building a manufacturing facility here - 10 years in the making. Not a complete success though - too hard to get the engineers.

It takes time for those engineers and millwrights to come up to speed. It takes time to get the manufacturing pipeline up to speed.

Again. Not manufacturing, assembly. It's very doable with partial robotics. See what Adidas is doing moving production home to Germany, and their shareholders love them for it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/adidas-to-sell-robot-made-shoes-from-2017

Again, using and maintaining robots requires engineers. Indu, it has been the hardest part of maintaining modern factories - developing the staff to use those high technology tools. And yes, Germany hasn't lost its ability to develop those engineers/millwrights.

[Induveca]

And not just racists using him as a platform.. but people who sympathize with views that are misogynistic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic etc. It would be unfair to label all Trump supporters as such, but there is really no denying that those kinds of individuals make up a significant portion of his base.

In many parts of the country this is a fearful time for Muslim women who wear a hijab , for minorities and immigrants who own businesses, for people young or old who lives in the midst of maniacs that may feel activated by Trump's platform.

I'm not as worried about Trump himself as I am the people he will surround himself with in office, and the segments of the population that are drawn to his cult-of-personality.

If these people are such a sizable voting block then how did Obama get elected for 2 terms?

One theory is that Obama energized certain segments of the population to vote, period, and Clinton did inspire that group to the same degree, while Trump inspired a different group of voters who were not inspired to vote by past candidates, Just a theory, but when you look at how close most elections actually are, you can see how one candidate losing 1% while another candidate gains 1% can alter the outcome.

I have a better theory, Clinton was extremely corrupt, and forced her will on the DNC by whatever means necessary to enable her candidacy. Biden was coerced not to run and Sanders was laughed at by the very establishment meant to hold a fair/free primary during his entire candidacy.

It was Clinton 100% from day one. Democrats were lied to/force fed a woman with 20+ years of scandals, corruption, and dishonesty that nearly 70% of the American public did not trust.

The Wikileaks had a major impact, the Clinton foundation corruption had an impact, Benghazi, Whitewater, sex scandals, Soros, mass immigration etc etc.

Biden or Sanders would have won, ESPECIALLY Biden. Democrats may dislike Trump all they like, but they have no one to blame but themselves. While a large percentage of democratic voters were in denial Trump supporters turned out for gigantic rallies, and unprecedented numbers at the polls.

While Trump had 20-30k people at his rallies, Clinton attracted a few hundred. Democratic voters *chose* to believe blatant media bias, "Russia" excuses and ignore the huge swelling of "real world" and social media support for Trump.

This was an arrogant, ignorant and elitist response to a movement much bigger than the actual man delivering the message. This vote was a conduit which essentially said "we want change, by any means necessary".

[dckingsfan]

Or to summarize - this was about anger and change and Clinton represented more of the same. And of course, it's the economy stupid. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-america-has-chosen-donald-trump-2016-11-09

“In eight out of the past nine elections, if real GDP has improved in an election year relative to the prior year, the presidential party in power won. If real GDP growth slowed relative to the prior year, the party out of power took the White House.”

But enough of that - I do laugh when I think about his transition team of Giuliani, Christie and Palin