2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#301 » by HotRocks34 » Tue Nov 8, 2016 5:44 pm

BBall Loyalty wrote:Out of your list, I can eliminate a bunch of players off the bat, Giannis, Dwight, Durant (curry hurts him), LeBron (will be coasting too much), and DeMar (i just don't think he's an MVP talent).

That leaves Lillard, Leonard, Paul, and Westbrook. From there you can use your criteria to start cutting down candidates. Will Lillard/Westbrook be on top 3 seeded teams? It's possible right now but I wouldn't count on it, my top 3 seeds at this point are still GS, SA, and LAC. Since those two are in the same boat as Harden, his statistical advantage might favor him.

Then it leaves Leonard/Paul against Harden. Leonard is a serious candidate and so is Paul especially if the Clippers become #1 seed. If their teams win 60 games give them the MVP, but if those teams are more like 55-win teams and Harden's team is a 48+ win team Harden has a legitimate case for being more deserving of MVP IMO, regardless of seeding.



I put those 10 guys down just to be fair and inclusive. I left Steph off because KD's stats are better for now. Of course, the list can shift.

Here's more data of On/Off based on NRTG per 100 possessions. This information hurts Lillard and Howard greatly. Data is like a day or two old so figures may be slightly different now.


On/Off (per NRTG/100, NBA.com)

JH = +07.6 ON; -30.3 OFF; +37.9 O/O
GA = +13.2 ON; -15.9 OFF; +29.1 O/O
RW = +08.9 ON; -15.2 OFF; +24.1 O/O
LJ = +14.8 ON; -06.4 OFF; +21.2 O/O
KD = +06.2 ON; -07.5 OFF; +13.7 O/O
CP = +13.7 ON; +05.2 OFF; +08.7 O/O
KL = +10.5 ON; +02.2 OFF; +08.3 O/O
DD = +09.4 ON; +03.4 OFF; +06.0 O/O
DL = -01.0 ON; -02.8 OFF; +01.8 O/O
DH = +08.1 ON; +14.8 OFF; -06.7 O/O

You can see there that Harden, Giannis, Westbrook and LeBron are significantly ahead of the rest of the field. Harden really is on his own super island, to be fair.

For MVP, though, you have to win games. If you don't have 50 wins for your team, it's probably a lost cause. I don't have a vote, that's just the recent history.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#302 » by Patches Perry » Tue Nov 8, 2016 6:09 pm

If I had to project right now, I'd say it's Chris Paul or Kawhi Leonard. Both are playing as well as anyone and both teams are doing well and will probably continue to do well.

Curry/Durant won't have the numbers/expected team success. The "take turns" approach will hurt their numbers and they won't improve upon 73 wins so it'll be a relative disappointment.

Westbrook/Harden won't have the team success probably. Thunder are 6-1, but I just can't imagine them winning the 55 or so games usually needed. Same with the Rockets. Although if any year were to be an exception to that, maybe it's this year.

LeBron is on cruise control.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#303 » by Triples333 » Tue Nov 8, 2016 7:55 pm

Chris is in the same situation he's always in this season. He had a great week but we know what his numbers are going to be at the end of the year because well they're always the same: 19/4/10 on 47/38/88. He's just not going to deviate from that significantly, so unless they pull off the 1 seed (which actually is definitely possible), he's not going to get the votes. He'd also have to be clearly better than Griffin, which is the case right now, but might not last.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#304 » by ThePersianFreak » Tue Nov 8, 2016 10:00 pm

I know a lot of guys like Harden/Westbrook/Derozen/Giannis/CP3 are having a great season stat wise but i think at the end it'll be between LeBron and Kawhi. Cavs and Spurs will win more games and i'm sure LeBron/Kawhi will have comparable stats to other players. LeBron has the perfect narative going for him (Best player on the planet) and Kawhi is doing Kawhi things.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#305 » by Bad Gatorade » Tue Nov 8, 2016 10:41 pm

Current top 10 according to Basketball-Reference's MVP tracker (which uses a model calibrated to prior voting results) -

1. James Harden - 0.326
2. LeBron James - 0.253
3. Chris Paul - 0.212
4. Russell Westbrook - 0.131
5. Kawhi Leonard - 0.023
6. Kevin Durant - 0.017
7. Kemba Walker - 0.01
8. Blake Griffin - 0.01
9. Damian Lillard - 0.009
10. DeMar DeRozan - 0.009

Interesting to see how this changes over the course of the season.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#306 » by zimpy27 » Tue Nov 8, 2016 11:18 pm

Chris Paul needs more acknowledgment. He is playing with a 30+ PER and his team is the best in the NBA this early in the season according to SRS.

Those things combined I don't see why he shouldn't be the frontrunner at this point but is currently paying 66 to 1 to win MVP. . Only competition is LeBron James.

Hardens team has to win 50 and it looks unlikely.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#307 » by inquisitive » Tue Nov 8, 2016 11:29 pm

Harden just needs to will the Rockets to 50 wins playing like last night....avg 29-30pts/game or lead league in scoring along with assists, i can see him winning it no matter what seed.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#308 » by Triples333 » Tue Nov 8, 2016 11:41 pm

zimpy27 wrote:Chris Paul needs more acknowledgment. He is playing with a 30+ PER and his team is the best in the NBA this early in the season according to SRS.

Those things combined I don't see why he shouldn't be the frontrunner at this point but is currently paying 66 to 1 to win MVP. . Only competition is LeBron James.

Hardens team has to win 50 and it looks unlikely.

Only competition? Just going with your SRS logic, the team with the 2nd best SRS has a player putting up 26 a night and has a PER of 35. He's also the reigning b2b DPOY. That guy is no competition?
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#309 » by zimpy27 » Wed Nov 9, 2016 12:54 am

Triples333 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Chris Paul needs more acknowledgment. He is playing with a 30+ PER and his team is the best in the NBA this early in the season according to SRS.

Those things combined I don't see why he shouldn't be the frontrunner at this point but is currently paying 66 to 1 to win MVP. . Only competition is LeBron James.

Hardens team has to win 50 and it looks unlikely.

Only competition? Just going with your SRS logic, the team with the 2nd best SRS has a player putting up 26 a night and has a PER of 35. He's also the reigning b2b DPOY. That guy is no competition?

Oh yes, him too
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#310 » by Triples333 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:38 am

Rebounding rate falling significantly for Westbrook. Assists more inconsistent. Shooting falling precipitously. Almost seems like he is tiring out after the first week of the season? Who could have predicted that?
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#311 » by Homer38 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:41 am

Triples333 wrote:Rebounding rate falling significantly for Westbrook. Assists more inconsistent. Shooting falling precipitously. Almost seems like he is tiring out after the first week of the season? Who could have predicted that?



Before tonight, Westbrook had not played in the 4th quarter in the last three games....
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#312 » by Triples333 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:47 am

Homer38 wrote:
Triples333 wrote:Rebounding rate falling significantly for Westbrook. Assists more inconsistent. Shooting falling precipitously. Almost seems like he is tiring out after the first week of the season? Who could have predicted that?



Before tonight, Westbrook had not played in the 4th quarter in the last three games....

Does that account for his significant drop in rebounding rate and his drop in percentages though? He looked tired to me in the Clippers game, his USG was at an all-time high level, and I think the majority of the games since are consistent with that take. He's not firing on all cylinders (who can blame him?).
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#313 » by nickhx2 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:40 am

if clips finish with a top 3 record i could see blake or cp3 having a pretty good chance. they look pretty good thus far.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#314 » by Gil » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:44 am

Give Harden MVP & he actually played defense tonight too.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#315 » by ken6199 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:02 am

Gil wrote:Give Harden MVP & he actually played defense tonight too.

It's going to be hard. The perception is bad, image broken. He can have half of a season of good defense then a few lapses? People will bring up youtube clips and shaqtin MVP. Everything about this guy makes him an easy target.

I think he needs to actually lead the league in both ppg and apg with Rockets winning 50+ games to have a shot at it. If he just has an 'average' season like 29/6/7, he will miss the all nba 3rd team.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#316 » by Triples333 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:21 am

ken6199 wrote:
Gil wrote:Give Harden MVP & he actually played defense tonight too.

It's going to be hard. The perception is bad, image broken. He can have half of a season of good defense then a few lapses? People will bring up youtube clips and shaqtin MVP. Everything about this guy makes him an easy target.

I think he needs to actually lead the league in both ppg and apg with Rockets winning 50+ games to have a shot at it. If he just has an 'average' season like 29/6/7, he will miss the all nba 3rd team.

It's MVP. It takes a special story. He WILL need the PPG/APG #1 (as a top 6 seed) or the top 2 seed as the top scorer and/or top of APG. That's just the reality of the award man. Historically you do NOT win MVP if you are not a top 2 seed in your conference, so it will take something special (he's on his way).
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#317 » by Cantabile » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:50 am

Between Harden, Westbrook and Leonard for me.

Have a hard time seeing Paul winning MVP even with his dominant play thus far. Splitting votes with Griffin, not in the center of the leagues attention nor is he taking the league by storm with awe inspiring highlights (as opposed to '08) and the Clippers success will be met with some cynicism for their playoff failures.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#318 » by Bobbcats » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:02 am

At this point CP is playing too well to be in contention. He is playing himself off the court in 25 minutes and doesn't have the style to pile up the stats in short amounts of time like Curry.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#319 » by Johnny Firpo » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:59 pm

Harden is the most impresssive player so far. Just utterly, UTTERLY ridiculous statistics.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#320 » by OkcSinceSGA » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:08 pm

Harden is amazing. He's worthy of MVP talk and has been. The thing is... he's seen a huge uptick in assists but also turnovers. When I looked earlier he was at 5.5 or 6 TOPG. That's barely a 2.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio? Not horrible but he's no CP3 for example. That ranks him 69th in the NBA after guys like Lance Stephenson BTW.

Point is we are caught up in big stats without looking at the efficiency of a James Harden pass or assist. So the assist/ball handling up tick comes at a price. Outside of that his 30 ppg, 6 rpg average or whatever is on par with what he's done the last 3 years.
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