Is West Trash (so far)?

[likashing]

if you watch every game..why the heck do you need stats?

Because your eyes are not able to obeserve every move all 10 players on the court do at any time and assess what exact effects they have in specific moments and the broader context? It's impossible. Stats exist as tools to work with in addition to what you perceive on the court while watching the game.

I guess that's why some ppl thought Kobe was still a great defender towards the end of his career.

"See he's locked up!"

Eye-test for the win!

[likashing]

ORTG/DRTG's are used in a lot of places and seem to mean different things on different sites. I'd have to look to remember where my favorite one was (EvanZ? 82games?).. lol haven't looked at this stuff in a couple years now. Anyways my favorite was a composite of the raw #s and then factors in the player's individual contributions and spits out an adjusted version of the traditional Net Rating that I found extremely accurate. Could have swore it was BBREF but I just saw their glossary, and yeah, individual stats based. I'm very meh on that

What you mentioned was ESPN real-RPM I believe. It is the players' plus/minus while on the court, adjusted by his contributions in the box score - ie separate out Barnes and Curry who are both in the death lineup with a high net rating (plus/minus)

[The-Power]

ORTG/DRTG's are used in a lot of places and seem to mean different things on different sites. I'd have to look to remember where my favorite one was (EvanZ? 82games?).. lol haven't looked at this stuff in a couple years now. Anyways my favorite was a composite of the raw #s and then factors in the player's individual contributions and spits out an adjusted version of the traditional Net Rating that I found extremely accurate. Could have swore it was BBREF but I just saw their glossary, and yeah, individual stats based. I'm very meh on that

EvanZ's nbawowy uses on/off court ORTG/DRTG - you can simply break it down in more detail and include/not include all the players you want. Love his website for more detailed breakdowns. You probably refer to a metric indeed calculated by 82games.com (Simple Rating) - see http://www.82games.com/1415/ROLRTG8.HTM or http://www.82games.com/1516/1516GSW.HTM (at the right). The site isn't up-to-date unfortunately and therefore cannot be used for discussions about current production. Of course it has its own flaws (e.g. the way they rely on a variation of PER and how they use it (for 'hypothetical' opponents, and the 'math' as they include actual NetRtg (simple mean), and the fact that the basic idea is that 'NetRtg is not reliable/sufficient enough, so we simply add something boxscore-based stats to reduce outliers which (also and in part thereby) makes it more in line with people's perceptions even though is simply a mix with no strong theoretical foundation'). I usually prefer to use raw on/off numbers and make adjustments myself by analyzing the context in-depth but I certainly get the appeal because it's easy to access and quite simple which makes it useful if you don't have to time/willingness to do more or extensive research.

You probably like JE's RPM then, as an all-in-one stat. Obviously it's not directly about NetRtg's and also only updated periodically but it combines +/- based regressions with a boxscore-prior. Therefore it's quite similar in its approach.

[Prius]

The Shaqtin MVP should get all of West's minutes

[Suka Bongcic]

He doesn't suck but he's a definite downgrade from Mo Buckets. Same money but 1 less year. Guess they couldn't have made it work with 2 years Mo wanted

[cpower]

he is just a body. Less a rebounder but better hands . I will play him over zaza against smaller teams.

[azwfan]

West is fine for the price, but not as good as i hoped (so far). I hoped he would distinguish himself as clear cut one of our top 8 players. I don't think there's the solid line there that i anticipated.

Edit: To answer the question, no he's not trash. Andy V is trash.

[DAWill1128]

Figured he would be the 8th best player handily, thus far it's hard to say he's better then McGee or Looney. West has a great feel for the game with his experience, his foot speed bothers me a bit at times which is understandable with his mileage. I like West as a backup power forward, but the guy makes me cringe at the center spot. His tendancies are to operate as a 4 where he's just helping in the paint instead of controlling it. I think McGee demands respect at the 5 and Looney busts his tail, but West just isn't a 5. I would prefer West matching up with guys like Randolph but nobody explosive to the hoop like Deandre.

[turk3d]

I think West is still trying to figure it out. I don't believe he's played much (if any) smallball center. I think he eventually will, his BBIQ is quite high. Seems to have improved somewhat as of late.

[Badly Browned]

I think West is still trying to figure it out. I don't believe he's played much (if any) smallball center. I think he eventually will, his BBIQ is quite high. Seems to have improved somewhat as of late.

Pretty sure he's played the vast majority of his minutes next to KD in the front court. I call that smallball Center.

While West has good attributes, I just don't feel like they mesh well with what the Warriors need from their Centers from a rim protection or rebounding standpoint. Though, that Livingston-Klay-Iguodala-Durant-West lineup had the best NetRtg coming into last night...

Still, put West next to another big, and I feel like the eye test has looked much better.

That said, the bench lineups West tends to play in seem to have been extremely Durant iso heavy. To utilize West's skills more, I'd like to see them working in some Livingston-West pick and roll or put West at the elbow with the ball and run splits with Klay and Durant for 3 or cuts to the rim.

[Rudruff]

A backup big playing for the min who hasn't cost us a game.

He is outperforming his contract just by telling the rookies which clubs to stay away from on road trips.

[turk3d]

I think West is still trying to figure it out. I don't believe he's played much (if any) smallball center. I think he eventually will, his BBIQ is quite high. Seems to have improved somewhat as of late.

Pretty sure he's played the vast majority of his minutes next to KD in the front court. I call that smallball Center.

While West has good attributes, I just don't feel like they mesh well with what the Warriors need from their Centers from a rim protection or rebounding standpoint. Though, that Livingston-Klay-Iguodala-Durant-West lineup had the best NetRtg coming into last night...

Still, put West next to another big, and I feel like the eye test has looked much better.

That said, the bench lineups West tends to play in seem to have been extremely Durant iso heavy. To utilize West's skills more, I'd like to see them working in some Livingston-West pick and roll or put West at the elbow with the ball and run splits with Klay and Durant for 3 or cuts to the rim.

He's replacing Speights as the smallball Center. When did Mo protect the rim and rebound all that great for us? The only thing that Mo did that West doesn't is shoot 3s and he didn't really do that until towards the end of the season and into the playoffs. Looking at the numbers Mo did do a better job for us, surprising.

I think the biggest problem for West is he's turning the ball over @ 4.4 per game per 36 which is uncharacteristic for him since in his career he's at just 2.0. Must be having a hard time getting acclimated to our system. He'll figure it out eventually. West is a much better passer than Mo was and has gotten quite a few steals (2.8 per 36) to go along with his turnovers for us thus far.

Give the dude a chance he'll be fine and by the time the season ends we'll be glad we got him. May not be anyone hungrier for a ring 0n this team than he is. I expect he'll come up big for us once we reach the playoffs.

[Mylie10]

I think West is still trying to figure it out. I don't believe he's played much (if any) smallball center. I think he eventually will, his BBIQ is quite high. Seems to have improved somewhat as of late.

Are you serious Turk? He's played almost exclusively as the smallball center. Its what some of us have been clamoring about. Do you have TV where you live?

[turk3d]

I think West is still trying to figure it out. I don't believe he's played much (if any) smallball center. I think he eventually will, his BBIQ is quite high. Seems to have improved somewhat as of late.

Are you serious Turk? He's played almost exclusively as the smallball center. Its what some of us have been clamoring about. Do you have TV where you live?

I meant previously in his career. Implying that playing small ball Center may be somewhat new to him.

[Badly Browned]

He's replacing Speights as the smallball Center. When did Mo protect the rim and rebound all that great for us? The only thing that Mo did that West doesn't is shoot 3s and he didn't really do that until towards the end of the season and into the playoffs. Looking at the numbers Mo did do a better job for us, surprising.

I think the biggest problem for West is he's turning the ball over @ 4.4 per game per 36 which is uncharacteristic for him since in his career he's at just 2.0. Must be having a hard time getting acclimated to our system. He'll figure it out eventually. West is a much better passer than Mo was and has gotten quite a few steals (2.8 per 36) to go along with his turnovers for us thus far.

Give the dude a chance he'll be fine and by the time the season ends we'll be glad we got him. May not be anyone hungrier for a ring 0n this team than he is. I expect he'll come up big for us once we reach the playoffs.

Mo was always a good rebounder for the Warriors. So combined with his 3 he was a playable stretch C for the bench, particularly a bench that needed scoring. Of course, everything else about his game was meh, especially last year when he couldn't finish at the rim. Without that 3 point shot Speights' probably would've been straight unplayable.

Like I said, I like things that West should be bringing to the team, but have so far not shown up. Hopefully the offensive issues are more about still trying to work West into the offense. Still not a fan of the West-KD front court pairing defensively though, which is why I want to wean West off the 5 a bit run more West-Looney/McGee type of bench lineups.

[Chris Porter's Hair]

He's a bench player. A relatively deep bench player, even. He's not about to steal anyone's starting job, but he's fine.

[laika]

People are complaining about West? What about Pachulia, who has been horrendous?

Here's the bottom line- Pachulia has been horrific, singlehandedly dragging down possibly the greatest 1-4 lineup in NBA history. The Warriors have been incredibly good when West is in. I don't care if he's doing it by black magic. West should start and Pachulia should be benched.

[FNQ]

That said, the bench lineups West tends to play in seem to have been extremely Durant iso heavy. To utilize West's skills more, I'd like to see them working in some Livingston-West pick and roll or put West at the elbow with the ball and run splits with Klay and Durant for 3 or cuts to the rim.

So I'm starting to see why the stats are the way they are. David West plays with starters and isn't used in garbage time at all.

West has played only 17 of his 121 minutes without Kevin Durant. Of those 17 minutes, 16 were with Draymond, 13 with Curry, 13 with Iguodala. (Klay 8, Clark 8 - all from his big game, McCaw 2, Livingston 7). In those 17 minutes though, West has 4 pts (2-5 shooting) 5 rebounds, 3 steals and a block. That's all very solid, except the steals, which is borderline amazing (and unsustainable, as is the 3 OREB).

But here's the telling part: In the 104 minutes he's played with Kevin Durant, Durant has shot an ungodly .710 TS% on 33% usage. When its Durant-Curry-West (21 minutes), Steph Curry - and this is not a joke - is shooting 1.041 TS% on 33% usage Steph is averaging 1.9 ppp, and 2.09 points per shot. Iguodala has been on the court with West-Durant-Curry for 88 of these 104 minutes.

Outlier identified. They should normalize over time, but the key here seems to be who he's playing with. If it works, it works, but stylistically West still should need to adapt to moving the ball faster

[Mylie10]

I think West is still trying to figure it out. I don't believe he's played much (if any) smallball center. I think he eventually will, his BBIQ is quite high. Seems to have improved somewhat as of late.

Are you serious Turk? He's played almost exclusively as the smallball center. Its what some of us have been clamoring about. Do you have TV where you live?

I meant previously in his career. Implying that playing small ball Center may be somewhat new to him.

My bad Turk!

[FNQ]

People are complaining about West? What about Pachulia, who has been horrendous?

Here's the bottom line- Pachulia has been horrific, singlehandedly dragging down possibly the greatest 1-4 lineup in NBA history. The Warriors have been incredibly good when West is in. I don't care if he's doing it by black magic. West should start and Pachulia should be benched.

He's also terrible, but via the eye test he's doing very little differently than West. We just start out slow for whatever reason, and his raw data gets crushed, while West's get inflated. West has been marginally better on an individual level, but he's also playing against 2nd stringers most of the time. RAPM would be a great tool to have now but lord knows where it is these days... I'm so out of the loop with that stuff now