OT - Current Affairs/COVID/Vaccines, etc

[PackSuns]

Yeah, I hesitated to post this here before but it looks like it's a bit of a consensus.

It appears the uneducated will trump any other demographic. Hillary under-performed with the Latino population and the Black population. Non-college women didn't even care about her.

Spoiler:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/2016-election-results-coverage/?#livepress-update-22093501

So if you don't have a college degree you are uneducated? Interesting point of view. Tell that to the millions of peeps with college degrees that are unemployed or underemployed. FYI. The folks I know that don't have their college degree are doing far better than a lot of folks I know with degrees. Let's be one country and not divide each other.

[bwgood77]

Yeah, I hesitated to post this here before but it looks like it's a bit of a consensus.

It appears the uneducated will trump any other demographic. Hillary under-performed with the Latino population and the Black population. Non-college women didn't even care about her.

Spoiler:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/2016-election-results-coverage/?#livepress-update-22093501

So if you don't have a college degree you are uneducated? Interesting point of view. Tell that to the millions of peeps with college degrees that are unemployed or underemployed. FYI. The folks I know that don't have their college degree are doing far better than a lot of folks I know with degrees. Let's be one country and not divide each other.

That second sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Just because someone doesn't have a job or there are too many qualified candidates to fill a certain position doesn't mean they are uneducated.

And having a job doesn't mean you are educated necessarily but it could mean you have a skill. I mean many nba players have fantastic jobs but some may not be very educated.

However it is probably not the best way to describe people without college degrees as uneducated, but instead, simply as "those without college degrees" which is how they referred to such on telecasts last night.

However, lets not turn this into any bickering about who is educated. Plenty who do have college degrees are clueless and plenty who don't end up educating themselves very well, you know, like Bill Gates.

I don't think anyone was trying to make such a uniform statement that a college degree = educated though I can see why such an assumption could be made.

[batsmasher]

Yeah, I hesitated to post this here before but it looks like it's a bit of a consensus.

It appears the uneducated will trump any other demographic. Hillary under-performed with the Latino population and the Black population. Non-college women didn't even care about her.

Spoiler:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/2016-election-results-coverage/?#livepress-update-22093501

So if you don't have a college degree you are uneducated? Interesting point of view. Tell that to the millions of peeps with college degrees that are unemployed or underemployed. FYI. The folks I know that don't have their college degree are doing far better than a lot of folks I know with degrees. Let's be one country and not divide each other.

I changed the wording of my post once because of this. They are two separate, but related points.

But yes, I believe the people with less of an education decided this election and I'm yet to find evidence to suggest otherwise.

And if you believe career/ financial success is the best measure of person then more power to you. Trump certainly does, and look where it got him.

[OGBAH]

I like turtles. Deal with it

[PackSuns]

Yeah, I hesitated to post this here before but it looks like it's a bit of a consensus.

It appears the uneducated will trump any other demographic. Hillary under-performed with the Latino population and the Black population. Non-college women didn't even care about her.

Spoiler:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/2016-election-results-coverage/?#livepress-update-22093501

So if you don't have a college degree you are uneducated? Interesting point of view. Tell that to the millions of peeps with college degrees that are unemployed or underemployed. FYI. The folks I know that don't have their college degree are doing far better than a lot of folks I know with degrees. Let's be one country and not divide each other.

That second sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Just because someone doesn't have a job or there are too many qualified candidates too fill a certain position doesn't mean they are uneducated.

And having a job doesn't mean you are educated necessarily but it could mean you have a skill. I mean many nba players have fantastic jobs but some may not be very educated.

However it is probably not the best way to describe people without college degrees as uneducated, but simply as those without college degrees which is how they referred to such on telecasts last night.

However, lets not turn this into any bickering about who is educated. Plenty who do have college degrees are clueless and plenty who don't end up educating themselves very well, you know, like Bill Gates.

I don't think anyone was trying to make such a uniform statement though I can see why such an assumption could be made.

Not trying to argue. My point was a lot of educated and successful people did not go to college. Labeling everyone in groups doesn't advance our country. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[batsmasher]

Not trying to argue. My point was a lot of educated and successful people did not go to college. Labeling everyone in groups doesn't advance our country. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I bet Hillary wishes she could take back the 'deplorables' line

[lilfishi22]

I wonder how Bernie would've fared against Trump.

[bwgood77]

I wonder how Bernie would've fared against Trump.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1490077

[bwgood77]

I wonder how Bernie would've fared against Trump.

One post from that thread I linked to....

August 28, 2015

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/08/28/bernie-sanders-warns-democrats-they-may-not-win-in-2016-without-him/

“My friends, the Republican Party did not win the midterm election in November: We lost that election,” Mr. Sanders said. “We lost because voter turnout was abysmally, embarrassingly low, and millions of working people, young people and people of color gave up on politics as usual and they stayed home. That’s a fact.”

As the audience sat largely in silence, Mr. Sanders continued: “In my view, Democrats will not retain the White House, will not regain the Senate or the U.S. House, will not be successful in dozens of governor races across the country, unless we generate excitement and momentum and produce a huge voter turnout.”

While he did not criticize his leading rival, Hillary Rodham Clinton, by name, Mr. Sanders argued that “establishment” politicians like her – and like the very Democrats he was speaking to – were uninspiring to voters.

“With all due respect – and I do not mean to insult anyone here – that turnout, that enthusiasm, will not happen with politics as usual,” Mr. Sanders said. “The people of our country understand that given the collapse of the American middle class, and given the grotesque level of income and wealth inequality we are experiencing, we do not need more establishment politics or establishment economics.”

Was he right, or was he right?

April 20, 2016

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1428449&start=1660#p46696405

... and I'm betting Trump will win. Hillary has too much baggage (and I think once she releases those speeches it's game over), and the anti-establishment movement is legit. Couple that with the country's anti-immigrant sentiment and I don't see Hillary really beating Trump. Trump has tapped into America's anger like nobody's business, and I think we'll see disgruntled voters come out in full force this election.

We'll see. Repubs have had rather impressive voter turnout, particularly in swing states (Florida and Ohio especially). I don't know if demographics are going to be as big a factor this time around.

I also think that young voters are going to be deflated if Sanders doesn't get the nomination, and when you consider how condescending the Clinton's have been towards young Sanders supporters I can see them getting all moody and just not showing up.

Was I right, or was I right?

Yes, you were right.

[bwgood77]

I wonder how Bernie would've fared against Trump.

Another good response from that thread I created there.

I don't know how anyone could think he wouldn't have won easily.

I'm going to do some guesstimating here.

There were probably about 10% of die hard Bernie Voters who just couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton and stayed home.

I'd also guess there were another 10-15% of people who voted Trump that only voted for him because they hated Hillary and would've voted for any other option but her.

Sanders had a passionate youth movement, something polls show Hillary didn't get last night.

Basically everyone who voted Clinton would've voted Sanders before Trump, I don't believe the opposite was true.

Clinton lost Florida by 1.3%, Michigan by 0.3%, Pennsylvania by 1.2% and Wisconsin by 1.0%. I find it very unlikely that Sanders with his energetic youth following, anti establishment message and squeaky clean image doesn't easily make up those small differences.

[garrick]

I wonder how Bernie would've fared against Trump.

Another good response from that thread I created there.

I don't know how anyone could think he wouldn't have won easily.

I'm going to do some guesstimating here.

There were probably about 10% of die hard Bernie Voters who just couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton and stayed home.

I'd also guess there were another 10-15% of people who voted Trump that only voted for him because they hated Hillary and would've voted for any other option but her.

Sanders had a passionate youth movement, something polls show Hillary didn't get last night.

Basically everyone who voted Clinton would've voted Sanders before Trump, I don't believe the opposite was true.

Clinton lost Florida by 1.3%, Michigan by 0.3%, Pennsylvania by 1.2% and Wisconsin by 1.0%. I find it very unlikely that Sanders with his energetic youth following, anti establishment message and squeaky clean image doesn't easily make up those small differences.

It's hard to say but I think some would be more put off by Bernie's socialist tendencies and would vote for Trump if they felt Trump would be better for the economy.

Sure Sanders might have garnered that slim 1-3 percent Clinton lost in the swing states but how much of a percentage loss might he have lost if he went on against Trump?

I think the biggest takeaway is that on election day many felt Trump was going to lose and the DNC did not take him very seriously which is something they will have to ponder for the next four years.

Another thing I would add is Trump is extremely popular with the alt-right crowd and all the alt-right people I know are absolutely ecstatic now because they have a president that can be sexist and be a giant douche and not give a damn because he knows his fans won't hold him accountable for anything he does.

These people absolutely do not believe in the equal rights movement and in a choice between Bernie and Trump I would say all of these people would choose Trump over Bernie every time.

[NavLDO]

Some very salient points, at least IMO, was brought up on PBS News Hour yesterday, and that was, just as people were opening their mail-in ballots, they were also opening up their ObamaCare rate increase notices. Basically, this election came down to economics, and a good number of blue-collar, hard-working individuals were promised a lot of things that were not delivered upon, plain and simple. And no, that's not a knock on Obama, it's a knock on BOTH the Legislative AND Executive houses of gov't.

So, what was also brought up was, when dealing with personal finances that are dwindling, and you have a candidate that, let's face it, did not generate a lot of excitement about how she was going to make things better, a lot of folks opted for plan 'B', and chose to overlook the MANY personal faults of Trump, in hopes that he is going to turn the Washington establishment--both Republican AND Democrat--upside down, and hope he delivers upon his promise of change.

We all have our opinions as to why this happened, but I thought what was brought up about the rate hikes, and the lack of a message of 'change', were interesting points, is all. And I'm not saying I buy into everything that was said above, but it does make some sense.

Now, to the point about Sanders? Yes, IMO, I believe Sanders would've likely defeated Trump. That's not a slam against Hillary; it's a point that 'Middle America' is tired of being 'forgotten', and they want change, and Sanders could've run on a similar platform that Trump ran on--change--just that Sanders would've been the 'clean' candidate, thus likely the choice. But instead, a good majority of Hillary's platform was--"Trump is evil." Just look back at all the ads; they were attack ads on Trump's fault as a person, instead of how she was going to be different, and change a lot of the broken policies that are hitting blue-collar workers where it hurts the most--their wallets.

[bwgood77]

I really didn't care who won. I disliked both candidates. Hoping the housing market crashes sooner now though so I can buy a house for an affordable price.

Russia seems to be pleased with the election and maybe we can establish a good relationship with them now. Here's a story actually... back in 2011 when I was still in the military, my ship I was stationed on went to Vladivostok, Russia for a port visit. I believe we were the first ship to have a port visit in Russia in well, a long time. We were trying to establish a relationship with them then. We played basketball against one of their club teams too, it was their B-team though. It was being filmed which was funny because my ship had a crew of 250 sailors, we were not a carrier. We got completely smashed. I played pretty well though. One of their roster players looked like Zoran Dragic.
Here's the article... http://www.newsvl.ru/photos/2011/10/03/92168/
I asked my ex-gf to translate it and this is what she said it said "......it just talks about how only those "militaty men" who really wanted to play basketball came out to play with the professionals. they weren't expecting to win but just wanted to have fun." I still have that scarf they gave us as a token of friendship (in picture 6 I'm the guy in the middle standing up & smiling). Russia was probably the most interesting port visit I ever had encountered in my short time in the military. Vodka was cheaper than water. 12 year olds were going in bars drinking and smoking. They never seen black people so my black sailor friends were constantly getting pictures taken with them, and I mean like getting swarmed. Girls on the street acted like they seen the Beatles, one said "I love you, want to marry you." Very sincere, not in the I'm desperate to go to America kind of way. Anyway, I got a bit more story to tell about my Russia port visit if you care.

Back to the presidency, it's interesting to see all the people who hated Trump post on FB.

I'd be interested to hear more about your Russia port story.

[Qwigglez]

Spoiler:

I really didn't care who won. I disliked both candidates. Hoping the housing market crashes sooner now though so I can buy a house for an affordable price.

Russia seems to be pleased with the election and maybe we can establish a good relationship with them now. Here's a story actually... back in 2011 when I was still in the military, my ship I was stationed on went to Vladivostok, Russia for a port visit. I believe we were the first ship to have a port visit in Russia in well, a long time. We were trying to establish a relationship with them then. We played basketball against one of their club teams too, it was their B-team though. It was being filmed which was funny because my ship had a crew of 250 sailors, we were not a carrier. We got completely smashed. I played pretty well though. One of their roster players looked like Zoran Dragic.
Here's the article... http://www.newsvl.ru/photos/2011/10/03/92168/
I asked my ex-gf to translate it and this is what she said it said "......it just talks about how only those "militaty men" who really wanted to play basketball came out to play with the professionals. they weren't expecting to win but just wanted to have fun." I still have that scarf they gave us as a token of friendship (in picture 6 I'm the guy in the middle standing up & smiling). Russia was probably the most interesting port visit I ever had encountered in my short time in the military. Vodka was cheaper than water. 12 year olds were going in bars drinking and smoking. They never seen black people so my black sailor friends were constantly getting pictures taken with them, and I mean like getting swarmed. Girls on the street acted like they seen the Beatles, one said "I love you, want to marry you." Very sincere, not in the I'm desperate to go to America kind of way. Anyway, I got a bit more story to tell about my Russia port visit if you care.

Back to the presidency, it's interesting to see all the people who hated Trump post on FB.

I'd be interested to hear more about your Russia port story.

Well first off, it was my first port visit. I just transferred to the ship and not a week later we were out to sea going to Russia. We arrived to Vladivostok pretty late and we had Cinderella curfew meaning we had to be back on the ship by midnight. I think we finally got liberty call around 8pm or something and being sailors the first thing everyone wanted to do was drink. So we rolled out mob deep, tried getting into a bar but it was ran by the mafia or something so we weren't allowed in. We ended up getting in somewhere and not many people were in there so it was just a bunch of sailors. A couple of guys knew I was new o the ship so they offered me a drink but I declined because I wanted to be conservative. Got back to the ship around midnight and oh man... everyone was hammered. In berthing, everyone was throwing up, people walking around naked waiting to get in the shower. My senior chief was slapping some of the guys in the division and I thought it was pretty hilarious. I thought... damn, this is what the Navy is really like, sailors getting super hammered, the movies got it right. It ended up being only Russia. I mentioned before Vodka was cheaper than water, well Russian vodka is no joke! All the other port visits did not compare to this (people being drunk that is), it was mass chaos when everyone got back on the ship.
The following day we went out again, and this is where my fellow black sailors kept getting pictures taken. Seriously it took us maybe a half hour to finally get off the pier. At first, all the locals and even Russian military just wanted pictures with all of us, but then eventually they were just taking pictures with just the black guys. Funny stuff. The women here, they all looked like models, they were all tall, blonde, and blue eyes. After the basketball game I participated in (I don't remember which day this was) I tried talking to a few females who were gawking at me but my teammates grabbed me to get back on the bus. Oh the game was also being televised, and there was a small crowd. They only cheered for us though, I have no clue why.
I don't remember much else, I had some cool pictures there but unfortunately my phone was stolen when I went back to Arizona a couple years ago.

[sunskerr]

I went from inconsolable during election day to telling myself to reserve judgment the day after Trump won the election. But after seeing the people who are being considered for his cabinet...I bemoan the prospect of having people like Giuliani, Gingrich and Ben Carson in positions of power. I mourn for the country, the world, the environment and the lower class - all of which will be at the mercy of avaricious and unscientific thinkers.

These are men who will rape the country...nay, the Earth for a quick buck. They look at a bear and see a fur coat. They look at a woman and see an object. They look at our national parks and see logs and oil. "More! More! More!" That's all they can think of and they'll never stop. They'll cut down every tree and when every tree is gone they'll move on to their next victim and continue on.

We know what this agenda is because we've seen it before. It is a complete, unregulated and extreme capitalist society where big business will have complete control over everything. They will try to use religion to placate the masses. Religion will be their weapon to keep you uninformed and ignorant to powerful scientific and statistical methods which shed light on the truth of what these men are doing - transforming the Earth with unsustainable harvesting, bloating the gap of income inequality and restricting your rights. This is their party platform and they are quite clear about it. That is their vision for America. Never underestimate the power of greed.

[saintEscaton]

Honestly all of these Democrat tears is schadenfreud for me, thought they had it in the bag and have only thesmselves to blame, not third party candidates like the MSNBC pearclutchers wiould ike to tell you . All their virtue signalling antics failed to guilt trip those who they had nothing to offer. Trump won the election without fewer popular votes than Romney/McCain lost , so this whole narrative of disgruntled white supremacist coming out in droves is false, half of the nation didn't even bother participating in this shame

[batsmasher]

Honestly all of these Democrat tears is schadenfreud for me, thought they had it in the bag and have only thesmselves to blame, not third party candidates like the MSNBC pearclutchers wiould ike to tell you . All their virtue signalling antics failed to guilt trip those who they had nothing to offer. Trump won the election without fewer popular votes than Romney/McCain lost , so this whole narrative of disgruntled white supremacist coming out in droves is false, half of the nation didn't even bother participating in this shame

Read on Twitter

edit: actually that's a really crap graph, this is better:

Read on Twitter

[sunskerr]

Honestly all of these Democrat tears is schadenfreud for me, thought they had it in the bag and have only thesmselves to blame, not third party candidates like the MSNBC pearclutchers wiould ike to tell you . All their virtue signalling antics failed to guilt trip those who they had nothing to offer. Trump won the election without fewer popular votes than Romney/McCain lost , so this whole narrative of disgruntled white supremacist coming out in droves is false, half of the nation didn't even bother participating in this shame

That's a fair take on what happened, but I think it doesn't encapsulate the whole story for the DNC. You have to review what happened in the context of history - that is to say the last few elections up to Reagan. This is a DNC party which has seemingly done quite a bit of good for the country following the changes brought about by Reaganomics. The economy (under the Democratic party) has generally trended up. Then we consider the damage done by the Bush administration as well and how much Obama had to work to right the ship. Everything seemed like it was going well. Even if the Republicans had redrawn the districts, surely people would begin to realise what the GOP had been doing since Reagan. That, as well as changing demographics would surely be enough to march ever forward.

But in their success they became too prideful. They forgot about white production workers and they thought they could get any candidate they wanted into the presidency. And now they're paying the full price. That price is ceding total control of all three branches of government to the GOP which has doubled down on deregulation of private industry and privatization of important services which only function under the structure of government. This same GOP party has also ballooned full of Tea Party fundamentalists whom are socially regressive. All the work the Democrats feel they have done is under threat because they left the Rustbelt's backdoor unlocked and Donald Trump walked in.

The losses of the Democratic party lies solely with them and their mistake. But the feeling of betrayal makes some sense from an emotional standpoint in the context of history. Make no mistake - I'm not saying the Democrats have been perfect citizens or shining beacons of morality. But they've done well enough to correct many of the problems the GOP has made for over 30 years and because they forgot one key demographic all of that work could be undone within the first few months or weeks of the new session of Congress. You can almost picture the MSNBC pundits and DNC higher-ups seething through their teeth at the American people asking, "Have you learned nothing all these years?". We can only hope the DNC will learn from this mistake because it's looking like it could cost all of us big time.

[jcsunsfan]

Speaking as somewhat of a moderate. . .

Its funny how progressives assume that conservatives are "out there" some place and not sitting right next them in the work place or on the message board. We are a country where people do disagree on a lot of things. But to treat those you disagree with as ignorant, uneducated, backward, regressive, etc will eventually elicit a response. There has no attempt in the media to address real conservative issue. The response to conservatives has been to mock them and call them names. Its really hard to support a candidate that openly mocks you and despises you as a person. I am quite amazed that their rebellion was confined to the ballot box.

But the completely ignored fact in this election is that less white people voted for Trump than voted for Romney. More minorities voted for Trump than Romney, and significantly more minorities stayed home this election. There was such optimism after the 2008 election among many minorities because they thought their voice was finally heard. But now their communities are more dangerous, their unemployment is higher, and their insurance costs have soared. The last 8 years did not work for them, and they expected a lot more. They could not vote for Trump, but they were uninspired to vote for Hillary.

Evangelicals were not happy with the Trump nomination either. But they had been beat up by the press and Hillary and had just gotten angry enough for a few more of them to go vote anyway. Trump was not the evangelical choice in the Republican party and evangelicals have been fighting with one another all over the country on whether you could be a good evangelical and vote for Trump or whether you had to leave the spot blank or vote third party. Hillary's staunch defense of partial birth and late term abortion eliminated her from consideration. The evangelical vote is all about the abortion issue. They, even now, do not trust Trump, even though they voted for him. The "deplorables" comments probably sealed that deal.

The hispanic vote is another matter altogether. They are not a voting bloc. They are individuals with varying values and concerns. Exit polls show that the main concern among hispanics voting this year was they economy. Immigration was third. Some of the most conservative voters on immigration are second and third generation hispanics and hispanics who have immigrated through legal processes. They voted out Sheriff Joe because his sweeps were based upon ethnic background and parents actually feared that their citizen children could be arrested, incarcerated, and even deported just because they did not have adequate ID

The final lesson. Economics beats all other issues. Its not about immigration, abortion, the supreme court, global warming, etc. Its about the fact that a person cannot get a good job and their ACA insurance is going up 150%.

Whites and minorities were uninspired. The whites were just a little less uninspired than the minorities.

Bernie probably would have won.

Its really hard to fathom that in a a country of 400 million people, we came up with these two. I am not disappointed in this election. I resigned myself last spring to the inevitability of having a disappointing president. Now I am just hoping the one elected will be a better president than thought he would be.

[grumpysaddle]

Unlikely a better year with what's about to happen in Washington.