Game 10: Nets at Suns

[darealjuice]

Watson is getting a lot of **** for not playing the rookies extended minutes here, and I'm not really sure it's justified. You're free to disagree, but hear me out.

This entire team came into the season wanting to compete, thinking that they can surprise people like Portland last year and be a good team. As Suns fans, we're typically objective when evaluating our team and set pretty low, realistic expectations for them as of late -- expectations that would not be healthy for the team itself to have going into the season. We haven't quite been winning like I'm sure they had hoped for, but we've fought hard every game and we're still less than 12% through the season at this point, the team shouldn't start thinking it's too late to meet their goals already. What kind of message does Watson send the players when he starts sitting veterans that feel they deserve to get time in favor of rookies who, and I'm sure people will disagree, haven't put in the time and don't really look ready to be out there yet for significant time? I remember times playing in high school/college where we'd be in a somewhat reasonable range with 3-4 minutes left, and our coach would just quit on us and throw the end of the bench in the game. That kind of stuff kills your morale and the locker room, and I couldn't imagine going through 72 more games knowing that we look like we're phoning it in already.

I think people are putting way too much stock into game playing time for the development of our young guys, when that's not where their development happens. These guys are going to get better putting in hours in the gym on their own and with the team, not with an extra 5 to 10 minutes in a game. I know we all want to see them on the court, but they are just a bunch of teenagers that are physically outmatched in a grown man league. I saw someone compare Watson sitting our rookies to Hornacek sitting Booker last year, and I just don't understand that. Not every kid is going to come in the league filled to the brim with confidence and feel ready to contribute in a significant way to the team the way Booker was.

[batsmasher]

Watson is getting a lot of **** for not playing the rookies extended minutes here, and I'm not really sure it's justified. You're free to disagree, but hear me out.

This entire team came into the season wanting to compete, thinking that they can surprise people like Portland last year and be a good team. As Suns fans, we're typically objective when evaluating our team and set pretty low, realistic expectations for them as of late -- expectations that would not be healthy for the team itself to have going into the season. We haven't quite been winning like I'm sure they had hoped for, but we've fought hard every game and we're still less than 12% through the season at this point, the team shouldn't start thinking it's too late to meet their goals already. What kind of message does Watson send the players when he starts sitting veterans that feel they deserve to get time in favor of rookies who, and I'm sure people will disagree, haven't put in the time and don't really look ready to be out there yet for significant time? I remember times playing in high school/college where we'd be in a somewhat reasonable range with 3-4 minutes left, and our coach would just quit on us and throw the end of the bench in the game. That kind of stuff kills your morale and the locker room, and I couldn't imagine going through 72 more games knowing that we look like we're phoning it in already.

I think people are putting way too much stock into game playing time for the development of our young guys, when that's not where their development happens. These guys are going to get better putting in hours in the gym on their own and with the team, not with an extra 5 to 10 minutes in a game. I know we all want to see them on the court, but they are just a bunch of teenagers that are physically outmatched in a grown man league. I saw someone compare Watson sitting our rookies to Hornacek sitting Booker last year, and I just don't understand that. Not every kid is going to come in the league filled to the brim with confidence and feel ready to contribute in a significant way to the team the way Booker was.

3500000% agree. PT is overrated like crazy when it comes to development. Cohesion and culture are way more significant factors than a few extra minutes of PT here and there.

If that means benching all our rooks (who can't even drink yet) to keep the competitive culture strong, then we should be ALL FOR IT. It's the same reason seniors coming out of college still need the same amount of time to adjust to the NBA as freshman. The NBA is a different kettle of fish which has an adjustment period no matter how much PT you are getting. Keeping our rooks on the bench for a year isn't going to hurt them.

[bwgood77]

Watson is getting a lot of **** for not playing the rookies extended minutes here, and I'm not really sure it's justified. You're free to disagree, but hear me out.

This entire team came into the season wanting to compete, thinking that they can surprise people like Portland last year and be a good team. As Suns fans, we're typically objective when evaluating our team and set pretty low, realistic expectations for them as of late -- expectations that would not be healthy for the team itself to have going into the season. We haven't quite been winning like I'm sure they had hoped for, but we've fought hard every game and we're still less than 12% through the season at this point, the team shouldn't start thinking it's too late to meet their goals already. What kind of message does Watson send the players when he starts sitting veterans that feel they deserve to get time in favor of rookies who, and I'm sure people will disagree, haven't put in the time and don't really look ready to be out there yet for significant time? I remember times playing in high school/college where we'd be in a somewhat reasonable range with 3-4 minutes left, and our coach would just quit on us and throw the end of the bench in the game. That kind of stuff kills your morale and the locker room, and I couldn't imagine going through 72 more games knowing that we look like we're phoning it in already.

I think people are putting way too much stock into game playing time for the development of our young guys, when that's not where their development happens. These guys are going to get better putting in hours in the gym on their own and with the team, not with an extra 5 to 10 minutes in a game. I know we all want to see them on the court, but they are just a bunch of teenagers that are physically outmatched in a grown man league. I saw someone compare Watson sitting our rookies to Hornacek sitting Booker last year, and I just don't understand that. Not every kid is going to come in the league filled to the brim with confidence and feel ready to contribute in a significant way to the team the way Booker was.

3500000% agree. PT is overrated like crazy when it comes to development. Cohesion and culture are way more significant factors than a few extra minutes of PT here and there.

If that means benching all our rooks (who can't even drink yet) to keep the competitive culture strong, then we should be ALL FOR IT. It's the same reason seniors coming out of college still need the same amount of time to adjust to the NBA as freshman. The NBA is a different kettle of fish which has an adjustment period no matter how much PT you are getting. Keeping our rooks on the bench for a year isn't going to hurt them.

I totally agree with you guys on this except for when our rookies play a bit, play really well, while most of the rest of the team is playing like crap, I leave them in there until it's obvious it would be better to have a vet in there. Overall, I like how much Watson has already played them overall, which was more than I expected, but sometimes it feels hard to trust him when a guy like Knight stinking up the joint just continues doing what he has always done, not getting people involved, having tunnel vision, turning it over, shooting extremely poorly, and playing a lot of minutes.

That has to be demoralizing to much of the team too. Do you think they don't see what we all see with him?

[batsmasher]

I totally agree with you guys on this except for when our rookies play a bit, play really well, while most of the rest of the team is playing like crap, I leave them in there until it's obvious it would be better to have a vet in there. Overall, I like how much Watson has already played them overall, which was more than I expected, but sometimes it feels hard to trust him when a guy like Knight stinking up the joint just continues doing what he has always done, not getting people involved, having tunnel vision, turning it over, shooting extremely poorly, and playing a lot of minutes.

That has to be demoralizing to much of the team too. Do you think they don't see what we all see with him?

There are three reasons I can think of:

1. They know BK is better than he's playing. No-one in the NBA is naturally a 30% shooter.

2. BK s actually executing what coach wants and playing decent enough defense.

3. The politics of benching him is way too risky for the team particularly after the Bled/Gogi/IT combo last year.

I expect it's a combination of all 3. Once this team stops believing they have a chance at the 8th seed, THEN we may see BK's role reduced. Then the players on the team will understand him not playing. Then Watson can semi-justify it as a "move for the future".

[alldayeveryday]

“I just think it’s the shot selection at key times,” Dudley said. “Through the course of a game, you can let it go when you’re up four or five but there are certain times when you’re trailing the whole game. Once it’s a one-possession game, those are the ones you have to take good, quality shots and I thought we didn’t. Because of that, we let them get out in transition and get some 3s and open up the game.”

I hope this was directed at Knight.

[OnceUponADime]

Suns have lost to the Nets and Lakers already and we're not even a month into the season.

Safe to say we are NBA's worst team?

I wish they would give up on the playoffs dream and just focus on development.

[bwgood77]

Suns have lost to the Nets and Lakers already and we're not even a month into the season.

Safe to say we are NBA's worst team?

I wish they would give up on the playoffs dream and just focus on development.

I don't know if I'd say we are the worst team, but we were certainly expected to be among bottom 3. We have some talent. And I said before if our players all get hot offensively that is how we will win games. I figured it would happen occasionally. But sometimes it seems to convince people that can become the norm and we are playoff caliber or close, and can play that way every night. In a perfect world maybe, but it's fine to go through our lumps if the young guys do get minutes because it just gets our team closer and gives us another high pick.

There are a lot of positives so far from this season though.

[OnceUponADime]

Suns have lost to the Nets and Lakers already and we're not even a month into the season.

Safe to say we are NBA's worst team?

I wish they would give up on the playoffs dream and just focus on development.

I don't know if I'd say we are the worst team, but we were certainly expected to be among bottom 3. We have some talent. And I said before if our players all get hot offensively that is how we will win games. I figured it would happen occasionally. But sometimes it seems to convince people that can become the norm and we are playoff caliber or close, and can play that way every night. In a perfect world maybe, but it's fine to go through our lumps if the young guys do get minutes because it just gets our team closer and gives us another high pick.

There are a lot of positives so far from this season though.

Agreed and as for the bolded problem is that the Suns themselves tend to believe this. Last week both Watson and McD said on the AZ Sports radio interviews how playoffs is still their goal and they want to get in as the 8th seed.

[MathiasPW]

Suns have lost to the Nets and Lakers already and we're not even a month into the season.

Safe to say we are NBA's worst team?

I wish they would give up on the playoffs dream and just focus on development.

I don't know if I'd say we are the worst team, but we were certainly expected to be among bottom 3. We have some talent. And I said before if our players all get hot offensively that is how we will win games. I figured it would happen occasionally. But sometimes it seems to convince people that can become the norm and we are playoff caliber or close, and can play that way every night. In a perfect world maybe, but it's fine to go through our lumps if the young guys do get minutes because it just gets our team closer and gives us another high pick.

There are a lot of positives so far from this season though.

Agreed and as for the bolded problem is that the Suns themselves tend to believe this. Last week both Watson and McD said on the AZ Sports radio interviews how playoffs is still their goal and they want to get in as the 8th seed.

I believe this loss (and the record we have now) is the first blow to the playoff hope.

Depending how we fare after 20 games the hope may be fully gone.

Then we'll play the rookies more, but still a lot of veterans up to trade deadline (Knight PJ Tucker, maybe Chandler), and then full youth movement from there on.

[Beetlejuice]

Man... i think im the opposite of this board (Nets game) about Knight. He finally f... cared. I have waited for so long for this .... I feel like if i say it out loud i`ll jinx it.

He shot 2/13, ignored few good passes, made 2 bad turnovers, but he cared, i could see it : the effort , the annoyance in his face about miscues, the shots he took were not awful by Knight standards( I was ok with them) . If he plays like this every game i would like him. Today he reminded of PJ Tucker when he is dialed in.

I thought he might have started to turn a corner 2 games ago and today he really went all out. Remains to be seen will this effort continue when the monkey on his back goes away( he starts hitting some shots).


Bledsoe: why so slow initiating the offense. Its like everything has to be in his place(defense set) before he understands what he can do, very little "on the fly game" game.

Chriss: bust potential runs high in this one. He plays like we are down by 50 points while his mom promised him a new car if they win beforehand. ( "We are losing, big deal, I don`t want that new car even, lets lose by 100 that will show them how little i care").

[Saberestar]

I don't know if I'd say we are the worst team, but we were certainly expected to be among bottom 3. We have some talent. And I said before if our players all get hot offensively that is how we will win games. I figured it would happen occasionally. But sometimes it seems to convince people that can become the norm and we are playoff caliber or close, and can play that way every night. In a perfect world maybe, but it's fine to go through our lumps if the young guys do get minutes because it just gets our team closer and gives us another high pick.

There are a lot of positives so far from this season though.

Agreed and as for the bolded problem is that the Suns themselves tend to believe this. Last week both Watson and McD said on the AZ Sports radio interviews how playoffs is still their goal and they want to get in as the 8th seed.

I believe this loss (and the record we have now) is the first blow to the playoff hope.

Depending how we fare after 20 games the hope may be fully gone.

Then we'll play the rookies more, but still a lot of veterans up to trade deadline (Knight PJ Tucker, maybe Chandler), and then full youth movement from there on.

I agree. This game has been the first step into other direction and mentality.

If we are 4W-16L or something like that after 20 games I expect some trade and time for the youngsters.

[JJ13]

Was at the game, main takeaways:

1) the refs were awful - 4-5 terrible terrible calls in the Nets favor. We weren't as bad as the score this game.
2) we missed loads of shots we usually make, namely Booker
3) Watson's scheme is so predictable and repetitive, all perimeter plays, nothing down low. I like the extra pass mentality but most of the time it's worthless because it's all 20 ft away from the basket. When you have slashers and 3 seven footers, there should be more pick and roll/backdoor cut/post up plays.
4) Chriss was a stud in the first half, best suns player on the court. Then the 2nd half he doesn't see any play. Doesn't make any sense.
5) Brandon Knight is terrible. Terrible bball IQ, terrible shot selection, terrible passer, terrible. I used to really like Knight, now I cringe watching him play. No idea why he's out there in crunch time

[NavLDO]

A combined 8-39 from Booker/Bledsoe/Knight
Incredible...

You got it wrong, Quigglez, you're supposed to 'dig' on Len for leading the team in TRBs, having 2 BLKs, and ending with a Dbl-Dbl--he's the one who sucks Quiggez, not Bledsoe or Booker! Get it right next time, Man!

Yeah, I know, if I would've only seen blah, blah, blah and blah, blah, blah, I'd understand better how much Len sucks--another game thread, another several posts highlighting every mistake he makes...

[NavLDO]

Watson is getting a lot of **** for not playing the rookies extended minutes here, and I'm not really sure it's justified. You're free to disagree, but hear me out.

This entire team came into the season wanting to compete, thinking that they can surprise people like Portland last year and be a good team. As Suns fans, we're typically objective when evaluating our team and set pretty low, realistic expectations for them as of late -- expectations that would not be healthy for the team itself to have going into the season. We haven't quite been winning like I'm sure they had hoped for, but we've fought hard every game and we're still less than 12% through the season at this point, the team shouldn't start thinking it's too late to meet their goals already. What kind of message does Watson send the players when he starts sitting veterans that feel they deserve to get time in favor of rookies who, and I'm sure people will disagree, haven't put in the time and don't really look ready to be out there yet for significant time? I remember times playing in high school/college where we'd be in a somewhat reasonable range with 3-4 minutes left, and our coach would just quit on us and throw the end of the bench in the game. That kind of stuff kills your morale and the locker room, and I couldn't imagine going through 72 more games knowing that we look like we're phoning it in already.

I think people are putting way too much stock into game playing time for the development of our young guys, when that's not where their development happens. These guys are going to get better putting in hours in the gym on their own and with the team, not with an extra 5 to 10 minutes in a game. I know we all want to see them on the court, but they are just a bunch of teenagers that are physically outmatched in a grown man league. I saw someone compare Watson sitting our rookies to Hornacek sitting Booker last year, and I just don't understand that. Not every kid is going to come in the league filled to the brim with confidence and feel ready to contribute in a significant way to the team the way Booker was.

3500000% agree. PT is overrated like crazy when it comes to development. Cohesion and culture are way more significant factors than a few extra minutes of PT here and there.

If that means benching all our rooks (who can't even drink yet) to keep the competitive culture strong, then we should be ALL FOR IT. It's the same reason seniors coming out of college still need the same amount of time to adjust to the NBA as freshman. The NBA is a different kettle of fish which has an adjustment period no matter how much PT you are getting. Keeping our rooks on the bench for a year isn't going to hurt them.

I totally agree with you guys on this except for when our rookies play a bit, play really well, while most of the rest of the team is playing like crap, I leave them in there until it's obvious it would be better to have a vet in there. Overall, I like how much Watson has already played them overall, which was more than I expected, but sometimes it feels hard to trust him when a guy like Knight stinking up the joint just continues doing what he has always done, not getting people involved, having tunnel vision, turning it over, shooting extremely poorly, and playing a lot of minutes.

That has to be demoralizing to much of the team too. Do you think they don't see what we all see with him?

Yeah, I don't care if you are an 18YO rookie, or a 34YO Vet, if you have the hot 'hand', you should stay in, like Chriss was having last night, and if you are 'sucking', you sit the pine. Chriss was 7/17, Warren was 9/17, Len was 4/10 (ok, not hot, but not terribad for him, especially when he's getting BLKs and TRBs), Dudley was 6/12...those are the guys that should get minutes, and you tell Bledsoe to facilitate and stop shooting if he's having a 1/8 night.

[Qwigglez]

A combined 8-39 from Booker/Bledsoe/Knight
Incredible...

You got it wrong, Quigglez, you're supposed to 'dig' on Len for leading the team in TRBs, having 2 BLKs, and ending with a Dbl-Dbl--he's the one who sucks Quiggez, not Bledsoe or Booker! Get it right next time, Man!

Yeah, I know, if I would've only seen blah, blah, blah and blah, blah, blah, I'd understand better how much Len sucks--another game thread, another several posts highlighting every mistake he makes...

Actually thought Len looked good for the most part. Even though I saw a couple of guys finish at the rim over/around Len I thought he did a good job going straight up and not fouling.