Otto Porter Part 2

[AFM]

MONTE SHOW US YOUR ASS BRUH

[montestewart]

MONTE SHOW US YOUR ASS BRUH

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

This is the only thread on the board that gives me any sense of optimism (other than the politics thread, of course). I think I'll reset my RealGM bookmark to bring me to this thread. Every other basketball thread is so depressing. This team stinks so bad and there is no hope in sight.

EXCEPT FOR THE RED PART...

Brad needs trading and EG FINALLY needs to take the hit for signing a horrible deal.

nate, you said before the signing you'd max deal out before letting him walk. I never felt that way. I would let him walk because I'd observed that Jordan Clarkson is near as good or better; AND, because I felt there would be plenty draft worthy players who could replace Beal. (Valentine?)

To me, the HOPE FOR OPTIMISM is 1)Beal trade can change everything. 2)Ernie finally gets what he deserved for the longest.

I'm still optimistic because stinky team is better than mediocre team.

[nate33]

This is the only thread on the board that gives me any sense of optimism (other than the politics thread, of course). I think I'll reset my RealGM bookmark to bring me to this thread. Every other basketball thread is so depressing. This team stinks so bad and there is no hope in sight.

EXCEPT FOR THE RED PART...

Brad needs trading and EG FINALLY needs to take the hit for signing a horrible deal.

nate, you said before the signing you'd max deal out before letting him walk. I never felt that way. I would let him walk because I'd observed that Jordan Clarkson is near as good or better; AND, because I felt there would be plenty draft worthy players who could replace Beal. (Valentine?)

To me, the HOPE FOR OPTIMISM is 1)Beal trade can change everything. 2)Ernie finally gets what he deserved for the longest.

I'm still optimistic because stinky team is better than mediocre team.

You are right that I would have signed Beal to a max contract rather than let him walk simply because the cost of mediocre replacements like Eric Gordon and Evan Fournier was still exorbitantly high. But I definitely would have waited for someone else to offer a max contract and then match it. At least that way, it would be a 4-year deal with 4.5% raises and not a 5-year deal with 7.5% raises. And if nobody offered him a max, there would leverage to negotiate an even smaller deal.

I'd really like to know if there were any other suitors for Beal's services at a max salary. The best option may have been to sign him to a 3-year deal, even if it's an overpay. The idea being that the team as currently composed gets 3 years to get it together and accomplish something before it is blown up. (Wall and Gortat's contracts also expire in 3 years.)

I have much bigger issues with the signing of Jason Smith and Ian Mahinmi to a combined $22M a year to play 15 minutes per game. John Wall, our franchise player, is paid $6,000 per minute. Our backup centers are paid $18,000 per minute. That's insanity.

The Nicholson signing doesn't bother me too much. He's a player who has some legit offensive skills; he is young; and he has the potential to improve. It's really hard to find competent scoring at a bargain price. I can live with paying him 6% of our cap.

[payitforward]

You are right that I would have signed Beal to a max contract rather than let him walk simply because the cost of mediocre replacements like Eric Gordon and Evan Fournier was still exorbitantly high. But I definitely would have waited for someone else to offer a max contract and then match it. At least that way, it would be a 4-year deal with 4.5% raises and not a 5-year deal with 7.5% raises. And if nobody offered him a max, there would leverage to negotiate an even smaller deal.

I'd really like to know if there were any other suitors for Beal's services at a max salary. The best option may have been to sign him to a 3-year deal, even if it's an overpay. The idea being that the team as currently composed gets 3 years to get it together and accomplish something before it is blown up. (Wall and Gortat's contracts also expire in 3 years.)

I have much bigger issues with the signing of Jason Smith and Ian Mahinmi to a combined $22M a year to play 15 minutes per game. John Wall, our franchise player, is paid $6,000 per minute. Our backup centers are paid $18,000 per minute. That's insanity.

The Nicholson signing doesn't bother me too much. He's a player who has some legit offensive skills; he is young; and he has the potential to improve. It's really hard to find competent scoring at a bargain price. I can live with paying him 6% of our cap.

I'd have let Brad walk rather than max him as we did. If he'd gotten another offer, I'd have tried to work out a sign and trade that brought us something, but I don't think I'd have retained him if that hadn't worked out -- though 4 years would have been better than 5.

I certainly wouldn't have signed Eric Gordon to replace him! Yikes. But there are lots of mediocre SGs on value contracts. It's the easiest position to fill.

Thing is, letting him walk was the one option Ernie didn't have. Letting him walk is admitting a mistake. Ernie does not admit mistakes.

Pay per minute -- obviously the scale has changed in the last year; but, it is kind of weird to imagine someone paid $18000/minute -- $1.1 million an hour !!

IMO, the Nicholson signing was every bit as bad as the Jason Smith signing. The team that drafted him didn't even give him a qualifying offer. He's signed for more than Smith and for 4 years not 3 like Smith. As to "potential to improve," I don't see it: if a PF hasn't improved in 4 years of NBA experience it's not going to happen. Esp. if, as in AN's case, there are such clear physical limitations.

What a mess.

[tontoz]

But there are lots of mediocre SGs on value contracts. It's the easiest position to fill.

Thing is, letting him walk was the one option Ernie didn't have. Letting him walk is admitting a mistake. Ernie does not admit mistakes.

What a mess.

This. I was in favor of drafting him but he just isn't that good. Just let him go and move on.

Now we are stuck with possibly the worst contract in the league.

[nate33]

I'd have let Brad walk rather than max him as we did. If he'd gotten another offer, I'd have tried to work out a sign and trade that brought us something, but I don't think I'd have retained him if that hadn't worked out -- though 4 years would have been better than 5.

I certainly wouldn't have signed Eric Gordon to replace him! Yikes. But there are lots of mediocre SGs on value contracts. It's the easiest position to fill.

What shooting guards signed last year would you consider to be "value contracts"?

If we're operating under the premise that the Wizards were trying to compete for the playoffs, then it's just not realistic to expect a total unknown like Sheldon McClellan to be our starting SG. We would have needed to replace Beal with either a veteran starter, or an up-and-coming youngster who has proven to be a quality backup and is looking for a starting job. What players like that were available in free agency?

It's easy to whine about the Beal signing. I do it all the time. But we need to be fair about the decision EG faced. Beal is a legit starting caliber player. Letting him go would have left a huge void. Filling that void isn't easy.

[nate33]

IMO, the Nicholson signing was every bit as bad as the Jason Smith signing. The team that drafted him didn't even give him a qualifying offer. He's signed for more than Smith and for 4 years not 3 like Smith. As to "potential to improve," I don't see it: if a PF hasn't improved in 4 years of NBA experience it's not going to happen. Esp. if, as in AN's case, there are such clear physical limitations.

Bigs with legit scoring ability are expensive. You can find underrated "hustle players" for less, but at some point, you've got to have somebody on your bench who is enough of an offensive threat to bend the defense and allow all of your cheap hustle players to thrive. I think Nicholson can potentially do this. And at 6% of the cap, that's not an overpay, or at least not a significant overpay.

[tontoz]

I'd have let Brad walk rather than max him as we did. If he'd gotten another offer, I'd have tried to work out a sign and trade that brought us something, but I don't think I'd have retained him if that hadn't worked out -- though 4 years would have been better than 5.

I certainly wouldn't have signed Eric Gordon to replace him! Yikes. But there are lots of mediocre SGs on value contracts. It's the easiest position to fill.

What shooting guards signed last year would you consider to be "value contracts"?

If we're operating under the premise that the Wizards were trying to compete for the playoffs, then it's just not realistic to expect a total unknown like Sheldon McClellan to be our starting SG. We would have needed to replace Beal with either a veteran starter, or an up-and-coming youngster who has proven to be a quality backup and is looking for a starting job. What players like that were available in free agency?

It's easy to whine about the Beal signing. I do it all the time. But we need to be fair about the decision EG faced. Beal is a legit starting caliber player. Letting him go would have left a huge void. Filling that void isn't easy.

If Beal was on another team would you be willing to pay $20+ million/yr to bring him here?

[80sballboy]

So an Otto thread turns into a bash Beal thread, but no talk about OP going 3-for-12 with four rebs against the Bulls. Wonder if he missed Wall?

[tontoz]

So an Otto thread turns into a bash Beal thread, but no talk about OP going 3-for-12 with four rebs against the Bulls. Wonder if he missed Wall?

I think it was a combination of:

-no Wall
-2nd of a back to back
-opposing scouts taking notice of his Boston game
-Jimmy Butler

He forced some contested shots which he rarely does.

A game like he had against Boston puts other teams on notice. They will make it a point to box him out and contest his midrange shots.

[Dark Faze]

Disappointed in Otto for the last two games he’s had—two missing either or both of John and Brad—the touches argument goes out the window and he shows his limitations in regards to just what he might be able to be for this team. I want him back but we can’t be the first team to offer him a contract. We need to let the market actually state his value unlike what we did with Beal.

[nate33]

I'd have let Brad walk rather than max him as we did. If he'd gotten another offer, I'd have tried to work out a sign and trade that brought us something, but I don't think I'd have retained him if that hadn't worked out -- though 4 years would have been better than 5.

I certainly wouldn't have signed Eric Gordon to replace him! Yikes. But there are lots of mediocre SGs on value contracts. It's the easiest position to fill.

What shooting guards signed last year would you consider to be "value contracts"?

If we're operating under the premise that the Wizards were trying to compete for the playoffs, then it's just not realistic to expect a total unknown like Sheldon McClellan to be our starting SG. We would have needed to replace Beal with either a veteran starter, or an up-and-coming youngster who has proven to be a quality backup and is looking for a starting job. What players like that were available in free agency?

It's easy to whine about the Beal signing. I do it all the time. But we need to be fair about the decision EG faced. Beal is a legit starting caliber player. Letting him go would have left a huge void. Filling that void isn't easy.

If Beal was on another team would you be willing to pay $20+ million/yr to bring him here?

No. But that's not the dilemma we were faced with.

I'm not arguing that Beal is worth the money. I was one of the first on the "Beal really isn't very good" bandwagon. I'm just saying that it's easier to criticize than it is to pose alternative solutions. Based on the situation at the time, it wasn't simply a matter of asking "is Beal worth $20+M per year?"

Give me the alternate scenario that was better than matching a max offer for Beal at 4 years with 4.5% raises.

[Dark Faze]

The main issue is not allowing the market to dictate his price.

Utah...effing Utah of all places PRIOR to the Hayward breakout allowed an offer to be made for Gordon before matching. It's beyond insane that we didn't allow the market to force us to pay Brad.

[montestewart]

Disappointed in Otto for the last two games he’s had—two missing either or both of John and Brad—the touches argument goes out the window and he shows his limitations in regards to just what he might be able to be for this team. I want him back but we can’t be the first team to offer him a contract. We need to let the market actually state his value unlike what we did with Beal.

O-matic was up against LeBJ and Butler at each end of the floor most of the games. It's a little early in the season for me to get too disappointed based on such evidence.

[tontoz]

No. But that's not the dilemma we were faced with.

I'm not arguing that Beal is worth the money. I was one of the first on the "Beal really isn't very good" bandwagon. I'm just saying that it's easier to criticize than it is to pose alternative solutions. Based on the situation at the time, it wasn't simply a matter of asking "is Beal worth $20+M per year?"

Give me the alternate scenario that was better than matching a max offer for Beal at 4 years with 4.5% raises.

I disagree. Letting him walk was easily a better scenario than resigning him.

When you pretend that Beal is on another team then all the emotional nonsense like "getting nothing for him/3rd pick the draft/filling a void" goes out the window and you can asses the situation logically.

Garrett Temple "filled the void" adequately last year when Beal was out and he is a nobody. I was saying the summer after his 3rd season that letting him walk would be a very viable scenario, much preferable to giving him the albatross contract he has now. Smart teams don't give huge deals to mediocre players.

Do you think Cuban or Buford would have given him the same deal under the same circumstances?

[Dark Faze]

Disappointed in Otto for the last two games he’s had—two missing either or both of John and Brad—the touches argument goes out the window and he shows his limitations in regards to just what he might be able to be for this team. I want him back but we can’t be the first team to offer him a contract. We need to let the market actually state his value unlike what we did with Beal.

O-matic was up against LeBJ and Butler at each end of the floor most of the games. It's a little early in the season for me to get too disappointed based on such evidence.

it's less about the percentage he shot against good defenders and more about the mentality--sticking to season/career averages in shot attempts despite the lack of wall/beal is just not a good luck for his ceiling

[tontoz]

Disappointed in Otto for the last two games he’s had—two missing either or both of John and Brad—the touches argument goes out the window and he shows his limitations in regards to just what he might be able to be for this team. I want him back but we can’t be the first team to offer him a contract. We need to let the market actually state his value unlike what we did with Beal.

O-matic was up against LeBJ and Butler at each end of the floor most of the games. It's a little early in the season for me to get too disappointed based on such evidence.

it's less about the percentage he shot against good defenders and more about the mentality--sticking to season/career averages in shot attempts despite the lack of wall/beal is just not a good luck for his ceiling

Wall basically froze him out against the Cavs, jacking up 24 shots himself. I dont think Porter's "mentality" could stop Wall from shooting a 2 pt jumper before anyone else touched the ball. Butler just shut him down, as elite defenders are known to do at times.

Beal didn't play against the Celtics. I don't remember you having much to say about that game.

[Dark Faze]

The celtics game was fantastic and I believe there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about Otto, but we already know he can be efficient on low usage. We need to see the next step in his development--how inefficient would he be with higher usage? Could he be a high 40's or low 50's 20ppg scorer?

I think the answer is yes but we shouldn't have to force him put up shots. This team is not good enough for him not to find the ball. I think finding the ball is a skill. There's a mentality to it. Good players that want the ball get the ball. Nobody is LBJ or Stephen Curry on this team.

[tontoz]

The celtics game was fantastic and I believe there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about Otto, but we already know he can be efficient on low usage. We need to see the next step in his development--how inefficient would he be with higher usage? Could he be a high 40's or low 50's 20ppg scorer?

I think the answer is yes but we shouldn't have to force him put up shots. This team is not good enough for him not to find the ball. I think finding the ball is a skill. There's a mentality to it. Good players that want the ball get the ball. Nobody is LBJ or Stephen Curry on this team.

Porter moves without the ball better very well. If his man turns his head for a second he will cut to the basket.

Sometimes a young player is reluctant to step on the toes of veteran players by taking a lot of shots. That looked to be the case to me last season. My guess is that Brooks has been in his ear about shooting more. He took some tough, heavily contested shots against the Bulls, shots he wouldn't take ordinarily.

He is a better midrange shooter than Wall/Beal. He can make the catch and shoot ones and shoot them on the move. But he actually has to get the ball first.

Sometimes i think Wall takes an excess number of midrange shots just to get his 20 ppg.