Political Roundtable Part XI

[tontoz]

Just watched the 60 minutes interview. Trumps change in tone has been pretty dramatic since being elected. I was expecting some of this after the primaries but it just didn't happen.

Ivanka is so hot.

[montestewart]

Ivanka is so hot.

Donald, is that you?

[I_Like_Dirt]

Ok, this confuses me. What would constitute acceptable proof that he's a white supremacist? Pretty sure you don't get to say "oh, this piece of evidence and that piece of evidence is not acceptable to me that he's a racist and therefore you may not think that way." But I literally know nothing about the guy so whatever. But my experience with white supremacists operating in the mainstream is they use a lot of dog whistle racism. No one comes out and says "lynch them!" anymore, they just say "all lives matter." When some people say it it just means they're colossally ignorant, but other people say it on purpose as a secret code to their fellow racists.

That's the tough bit, isn't it? Sounds awfully similar to arguments that get made about Terrorists and Muslims. I don't have answers, but just wanted to point out that it's a dangerous rabbit hole to go down.

[Kanyewest]

Ivanka is so hot.

Donald, is that you?

[Zonkerbl]

I mean, the strongest proof that Bannon is a white supremacist is that he has a lot of white supremacists running around in Breitbart's comment sections.

I guess you could interpret that however you want, but if white supremacists love your site...

[FAH1223]

Watch on YouTube

[Zonkerbl]

A quick straw poll of my facebook friends reveals it is, in fact, impossible to prove someone is a white supremacist.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[Zonkerbl]

Bah, how do you embed pictures from facebook?

https://www.facebook.com/funnytumblrposts/photos/a.304398013005805.62782.303894029722870/778656475579954/?type=3&theater

[tontoz]

Watch on YouTube

It is pretty funny to hear someone talking smack about the US media with a foreign accent.

They really ripped the EU

[AFM]

Bah, how do you embed pictures from facebook?

https://www.facebook.com/funnytumblrposts/photos/a.304398013005805.62782.303894029722870/778656475579954/?type=3&theater

Right click-->copy image address

[penbeast0]

There is a website called "cutechesters" and it's got commentary, not pictures?

[tontoz]

I think Ron was just pretending he cared about the house elves so he could get in Hermione's pants.

[nate33]

Background on Bannon's anti-Semitism.
https://mediamatters.org/blog/2016/11/13/white-nationalist-who-hates-jews-will-be-trumps-right-hand-man-white-house/214419

There is little in that article but innuendo.

The only quote from Bannon is that he said Breitbart had become "home to the alt-right". The alt-right is a pretty large, loosely defined group that does include some white nationalists, but it also includes mere anti-PC types and those who favor Western culture (being practiced by whites and non-whites alike). And even if Bannon believed that Breitbart had become home to extremely racist white supremacists, it doesn't follow that Bannon himself is one.

The only other documented fact in that article is that Bannon's ex-wife swore in court than Bannon didn't like Jews. Obviously, that's a statement by someone without much objectivity since she was in a divorce proceeding. We don't know if it's true, or if it has context, and we don't know how long Bannon said it. Maybe it was 20 years ago. But even if Bannon did say that over a decade ago, that doesn't mean Bannon is a "white nationalist" right now. Maybe Bannon has a legitimate religious disagreement with Jewish orthodoxy. Bannon is an Orthodox Christian and they're a bit more hard core than the Catholics and Protestants. Breitbart was founded by Jews, largely staffed by Jews, and has been consistently pro-Israel in its coverage. Dozens of Breitbart staff members, including Jewish ones, have said that Bannon has never shown any indication of anti-Semitism.

Bannon is a nationalist. This is not a secret. His nationalist instincts helped guide Trump to a victory in the election. It makes perfect sense for Trump to continue to heed his advice.

Ok, this confuses me. What would constitute acceptable proof that he's a white supremacist? Pretty sure you don't get to say "oh, this piece of evidence and that piece of evidence is not acceptable to me that he's a racist and therefore you may not think that way." But I literally know nothing about the guy so whatever. But my experience with white supremacists operating in the mainstream is they use a lot of dog whistle racism. No one comes out and says "lynch them!" anymore, they just say "all lives matter." When some people say it it just means they're colossally ignorant, but other people say it on purpose as a secret code to their fellow racists.

A white supremacist would be someone who states that he believes white people to be superior to other races. A white nationalist would be someone who believes in creating an ethno-state of exclusively white people. Either position would obviously be extremely problematic because it would involve significant discrimination against non-whites. To my knowledge, Bannon has said or done nothing to even hint that he is in favor of either of these positions.

Some at Breitbart, including Milo and probably including Bannon, would probably characterize themselves as "pro-Western". And by that, I mean that they consider Western culture to be superior to other cultures with respect to political liberty and economic freedom, and the preferable way to organize society. With that the case, they would be somewhat unwelcoming of Islam, which has consistently conflicted with the morals, ethics and societal norms of Western society. They also opppose large scale mass immigration of non-western people at rates faster than the culture can assimilate.

[nate33]

I mean, the strongest proof that Bannon is a white supremacist is that he has a lot of white supremacists running around in Breitbart's comment sections.

I guess you could interpret that however you want, but if white supremacists love your site...

See, that's an argument I refuse to accept.

If black supremacists vote Democrat, does that make Hillary Clinton a black supremacist? If radical Islamists vote Democrat, does that make Hillary Clinton a radical Islamist?

It's pretty clear that Trump's policy of immigration restriction is more closely aligned with the goals of white nationalists than the Democrat policy of open borders. So obviously, white nationalists are going to prefer Trump. But that doesn't make Trump a white nationalist.

[Zonkerbl]

What is a "black supremacist"? lol

If anti-vaxxers vote Democrat, that doesn't make Hillary an anti-vaxxer. Ok, it works.

[nate33]

Sorry. Black nationalists.

[Zonkerbl]

So this isn't alarming at all?

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/11/14/white-nationalists-rejoice-trumps-appointment-breitbarts-stephen-bannon

[payitforward]

it's simply unbelievable...a pretty open white supremacist is going to be working in the WH in 2016.

This is more outright lies spouted by the media. Exactly what evidence is there that Bannon is a "white supremacist". If he's "pretty open" about it, then find me a few quotes. The man has been around forever and even hosted a radio show for a year during the election season. Surely there's some actual evidence that he is a white supremacist. Give me a quote.

Forgive me, Nate, as I really hate having to say this -- but, you're on record here repeatedly that black people are genetically dumber than white people and/or, if you prefer this way of saying it, white people are genetically smarter than black people.

That's being a white supremacist. It's a core plank in racist ideology. Believing that makes a person a racist.

Please don't take me to be trying to pick a fight with you or... well, really anything. Moreover, if I either misunderstood you or you have changed your mind, then I will be happy -- genuinely so, and relieved as well -- to be wrong and to be corrected.

But, if a person does in fact hold such a position, then that is being a white supremacist; no more is needed. I suppose it would also be possible to be a white supremacist and not hold that position (haven't thought that through all the way) but it certainly can't be possible to avoid being one if you do hold it.

Please note that being a white supremacist doesn't imply disliking black people or even being "mean" to them. Many white people in the pre civil rights era liked black people just fine, and in the antebellum era too. Got along with them, could be personally close with them. Have deep and significant relationships with them. As long as they stayed in their place. They were still racists.

This bears on your comment in another post that those Scandinavians in Wisconsin can't be white supremacists because "they're the nicest people in the world." The two things have nothing to do with each other.

Note that the above is not an argument that those Wisconsin folks are white supremacists. Nor that Bannon is a white supremacist. But I do think it bears on (I don't say "determines") how you might assess the question -- in his case or any case.

This post is not motivated by politics, I need to make that clear. Yes, I think someone like Trump being elected President is a nightmare, but the election's in the past. On the political front what interests me now is to see how our institutions respond to the stress that will be placed on them. I'm not pessimistic. And maybe it's a good idea to stress those institutions every once in a while.

What motivates this post is an incipient feeling of friendship for you, nate. And my sense that -- like a lot of people -- you confuse "racism" with "prejudice against black people." Just as people sometimes imagine that "antisemitism" is "prejudice against Jews". But neither of those is true, and both of them hide what's really at stake in these phenomena.

Ok... stepping down from my podium!

[Zonkerbl]

There aren't 2 million illegal immigrants to deport. Trump is basically giving local law enforcement an incentive to manufacture criminal charges against anyone who looks latino.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/14/13623004/trump-deport-million-immigrants