Political Roundtable Part XI

[Ed Wood]

Three things that all reflect the legacy of historic and the persistence of current inequalities of opportunity between races in our society; can't imagine how we'll ever string those three factors together on our evidence board.

[montestewart]

RIP Gwen Ifill

[BigA]

Read on Twitter

Obama basically shytted on HRC's campaign.

He said he spent 87 days in Iowa. Said he won Iowa not because of demographics.

Sounds like what Bernie Sanders has been saying in the airwaves. Grassroots organizing has been lost by Dems since 2008. Obama got elected twice and they fell asleep while the GOP, Adelson, Koch network, Tea Party took over the whole country at the local level.

The Clinton campaign never went back to Wisconsin after she lost to Sanders there, and only went back to Michigan (which she also lost to Sanders) the last weekend.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[AFM]

http://zoa.org/2016/11/10342353-zoa-criticizes-adl-for-falsely-alleging-trump-advisor-bannon-is-anti-semitic/

[tontoz]

The Clinton campaign never went back to Wisconsin after she lost to Sanders there, and only went back to Michigan (which she also lost to Sanders) the last weekend.

But of course it is Comey's fault she lost, or Obama's fault. Can't be her fault. She will never own up to her own mistakes.

It is so fitting that she was sent to her political graveyard by Trump, who many (including myself) thought was nothing but a joke for being in the race in the first place.

Glad Obama is calling her out for her laziness.

[payitforward]

Forgive me, Nate, as I really hate having to say this -- but, you're on record here repeatedly that black people are genetically dumber than white people and/or, if you prefer this way of saying it, white people are genetically smarter than black people.

To clarify my position on this, I'm saying that the notion that white people might be genetically smarter (or, more specifically, higher IQ) can't be ruled out. There isn't an example, anywhere, in any country state or locality, run by any people, where the average IQ test performance of blacks has outperformed that of whites. The polite rationale for this condition is that society discriminates against blacks. That may well be the case, but you would think that with 50 years of effort and closing "the gap" here and elsewhere (including in black run countries), there would be some success. There hasn't been. I think we need to broaden the possible theories, because environment doesn't seem to be explaining it.

Interesting... here you seem to distinguish between "IQ" and "smarter"-ness (i.e. smartness). I'd say that's a start towards ridding yourself of the "genetic" concept. Here are a few things to consider:

1. IQ-test performance varies across a wide range of socioeconomic circumstances. Does hearing? Eyesight? Number of fingers/toes? Or anything else we can say with certainty is determined genetically?
2. IQ-test performance gaps between blacks and whites have closed where socioeconomic and educational conditions have closed. This on its own is enough to make the point that follows.
3. "IQ" isn't a "thing" that has a "cause" -- it's a test. To think that it was related to "intelligence" we'd need a third position from which to define intelligence & prove the equivalence. That doesn't exist (and couldn't, as a little conceptual analysis would demonstrate). That is, to check "eyesight" we test "eyesight" - we know what "eyesight" is independent of the test.
4. "Intelligent" is a word like "beautiful" or "good." What's behind it is not some self-existent essence. A person can seem quite intelligent and do poorly on an IQ test. Imagine yourself walking around with two people, both of whom demonstrate in their behavior, answering questions, pointing things out and other ways, that their eyesight is quite good. But, when you give them an eye test, one does great and the other does very badly. You'd conclude that there was a testing problem not that one of them couldn't see!

As I've said before, I don't consider this "white supremacy" because I readily acknowledge that average white IQ test scores underperform that of East Asians and Ashkenazi Jews - and there doesn't appear to be an environmental explanation for that either.

In fact you argued exactly that the historical environment of Ashkenazi Jews made them desirable immigrants as opposed to e.g. Mexicans! It's why they succeeded so quickly in America, you said. They also succeed well on IQ tests. That's for a different reason?

Do you really imagine that Ashkenazi Jews aren't some colossally interbred population over the last 1400 years? There was a Russian tribe somewhere in the Caucasus I believe that converted wholesale to Judaism in I think the Xth or XIth century!

I also don't think IQ is the end all and be all of human value. If whites do indeed have a higher average genetic IQ than blacks, it doesn't make them "superior", it means that they have a higher average genetic IQ. Surely, blacks perform better than whites in other things.

Oh, Nate -- the phrase "genetic IQ" is where the problem is.

I'll also reiterate that we are talking about group averages, not individuals. I'm white, but there are surely hundreds of thousands of blacks smarter than me. I am not at all bothered by this.

I assume the above is just imprecise writing. @20% of the world population is black (i.e. 1.3 billion people). Got to be a lot more than that smarter than either you or me, don't you think?

If you choose to characterize me as a white supremacist because I'm open-minded to the possibility that there is a genetic difference in the average IQ's of different races, that is your choice. I think it's rather odd to believe that all races have exact same intellectual capacities when we have clear and documented evidence of physical and biological differences that go beyond skin color. If you isolate groups geographically, there is going to be some genetic drift. That's what races are.

No. "Race" is a concept within an ideological system called "Racism" that was invented during the early Modern period of European history. It never existed as an idea before that time. As a reality, of course, it's never existed at all.

Being "open-minded" (btw, do you think "open-mindedness" is genetically driven and different among the "races"? If not why not? Why "intelligence" but not "open-mindedness?") to the idea that blacks are dumber than whites is racism, nate. Sadly. That's all it is.

It's really not worth arguing about. The genetic science is coming out on this now. It's just a matter of time before we identify many of the genes that correlate with IQ and how these genes are distributed amongst the various races.

It does seem pointless to discuss it with you. But not because it's not worth arguing about. It's very worth kicking to the side of the road by whatever means, as it's false, prejudicial, hateful & invented to be all those things.

Still, , one last time. "IQ" is a term invented w/in the last century as a shortcut for "numerical score on a given test with the name 'IQ Test'" -- what do you imagine might have happened over an evolutionarily significant chunk of time that could have produced the result you imagine yourself seeing? Where was the evolutionary advantage to one isolated population that might have from this speculative mutation, or set of them, that was picked up via natural selection & can be claimed to enable a person to sit down in a room and do well on an IQ test? The entire notion is bogus.

Nor is there any science behind it. Which doesn't mean there isn't a crackpot to make such a claim. "No heretic without a prooftext," as the Xtian theologians used to say.

I guess above all I'm sorry to find you without any real interest in, for example, reading some actual science, e.g. a good book on evolution. Whether the grand synthesis stuff by Dobzhansky (sp?) et. al. or the more recent reworkings ala 4-dimensional evolution. Instead, you live inside the shell of racism and quote from sources within that ideological system. Not much different intellectually from the insistence that the sun revolved around the Earth -- for that too all kinds of "science" was presented as support. As in this case, the reason was ideology -- Xtian ideology back then, racist ideology in the case under discussion. Your justification, if I understand it, is that you are a nice guy, you don't hate black people, etc. You can't be a racist. But, of course that's utterly irrelevant as I point out above.

[closg00]

The Clinton campaign never went back to Wisconsin after she lost to Sanders there, and only went back to Michigan (which she also lost to Sanders) the last weekend.

But of course it is Comey's fault she lost, or Obama's fault. Can't be her fault. She will never own up to her own mistakes.

It is so fitting that she was sent to her political graveyard by Trump, who many (including myself) thought was nothing but a joke for being in the race in the first place.

Glad Obama is calling her out for her laziness.

In-fairness, the Comey complaint is legitimate which is why the Trump campaign was so gleeful when Comey dropped the bogus bombshell. As an aside, the entire eMail "scandal" was completely overblown and puffed-up to be something it never was.

Republican witch hunts were successful in crippling both Clintons. Most Americans will never remember that Bill Clinton was impeached as an off-shoot of the failed and ridiculous Whitewater witch hunt and Hillary was buried after the failed Benghazi witch hunt which found ....the emails, in both cases "they found something" even if it wasn't the subject of the original investigation.

[payitforward]

http://zoa.org/2016/11/10342353-zoa-criticizes-adl-for-falsely-alleging-trump-advisor-bannon-is-anti-semitic/

Yes, we have some major right-wing A-hoels among us, ZOA being one of the worst.

[payitforward]

Read on Twitter

No doubt this is another of those complete fabrications, and we'll hear about it soon. Probably trumped up... I mean faked up by paid anti-Donald volunteer criminals.

[FAH1223]

The Clinton campaign never went back to Wisconsin after she lost to Sanders there, and only went back to Michigan (which she also lost to Sanders) the last weekend.

But of course it is Comey's fault she lost, or Obama's fault. Can't be her fault. She will never own up to her own mistakes.

It is so fitting that she was sent to her political graveyard by Trump, who many (including myself) thought was nothing but a joke for being in the race in the first place.

Glad Obama is calling her out for her laziness.

Clinton campaign schedule:
Travels of Hillary Clinton--August 2016
August 18 - New York, NY
August 19 - Martha's Vineyard, MA
August 20 - Nantucket, MA, Martha's Vineyard, MA - 5 fundraisers
August 21 - Provincetown, MA, Osterville, MA - 2 fundraisers
August 22 - Beverly Hills, CA - 2 fundraisers
August 23 - Los Angeles, CA, Laguna Beach, CA, Piedmont, CA - 4 fundraisers
August 24 - Redwood City, CA, Los Altos, CA, Woodside, CA - 3 fundraisers
August 25 - Reno, NV - urban swing state campaign event
August 26 - None
August 27 - White Plains, NY
August 28 - Sag Harbor, NY, Southampton, NY, Bridgehampton, NY - 3 fundraisers
August 29 - East Hampton, NY, Quogue, NY - 2 fundraisers
August 30 - Sagaponack, NY, North Haven, NY - 2 fundraisers
August 31 - Cincinnati, OH - urban swing state campaign event

22 fundraising events, 2 visits to urban areas of swing states

This was Obama's schedule in the same period in 2008:
https://www2.gwu.edu/~action/2008/obamacal0808.html
August 18 - Albuquerque, NM
August 19 - Orlando, FL, Raleigh, NC
August 20 - Greensboro, NC, Martinsville, VA, Danville, VA, Lynchburg, VA
August 21 - Richmond, VA, Chester, VA, Petersburg, VA, Emporia, VA, Chesapeake, VA
August 22 - Chicago, IL
August 23 - Springfield, IL
August 24 - Eau Claire, WI
August 25 - Davenport, IA, Kansas City, MO
August 26 - Kansas City, MO
August 27 - Billings, MT, Denver, CO
August 28 - Denver, CO
August 29 - Monaca, PA, Aliquippa, PA, Beaver, PA
August 30 - Boardman, OH, Cleveland, OH, Marengo, OH, Dublin, OH
August 31 - Lima, OH, Toledo, OH, Hamilton, IN, Battle Creek, MI

0 fundraisers, multiple visits to urban and rural swing state areas.

The September calendars:
Obama - 5 fundraisers, visits to Detroit, MI, Monroe, MI, Milwaukee, WI, New Philadelphia, OH, Dillonvale, OH, York, PA, Columbia, PA, Lancaster, PA, Duryea, PA, Wyoming, PA, Terre Haute, IN, Flint, MI, Farmington Hills, MI, Riverside, OH, Green Bay, WI, Detroit, MI.


The black guy went right into the heart of rural areas. Hillary couldn't be assed to do it. That tells you just about everything you need to know.

[AFM]

http://zoa.org/2016/11/10342353-zoa-criticizes-adl-for-falsely-alleging-trump-advisor-bannon-is-anti-semitic/

Yes, we have some major right-wing A-hoels among us, ZOA being one of the worst.

I honestly have no idea what I'm talking about. I thought a Zionist was one of those dudes in the underground party scene from the third Matrix movie.

[AFM]

The Clinton campaign never went back to Wisconsin after she lost to Sanders there, and only went back to Michigan (which she also lost to Sanders) the last weekend.

But of course it is Comey's fault she lost, or Obama's fault. Can't be her fault. She will never own up to her own mistakes.

It is so fitting that she was sent to her political graveyard by Trump, who many (including myself) thought was nothing but a joke for being in the race in the first place.

Glad Obama is calling her out for her laziness.

Clinton campaign schedule:
Travels of Hillary Clinton--August 2016
August 18 - New York, NY
August 19 - Martha's Vineyard, MA
August 20 - Nantucket, MA, Martha's Vineyard, MA - 5 fundraisers
August 21 - Provincetown, MA, Osterville, MA - 2 fundraisers
August 22 - Beverly Hills, CA - 2 fundraisers
August 23 - Los Angeles, CA, Laguna Beach, CA, Piedmont, CA - 4 fundraisers
August 24 - Redwood City, CA, Los Altos, CA, Woodside, CA - 3 fundraisers
August 25 - Reno, NV - urban swing state campaign event
August 26 - None
August 27 - White Plains, NY
August 28 - Sag Harbor, NY, Southampton, NY, Bridgehampton, NY - 3 fundraisers
August 29 - East Hampton, NY, Quogue, NY - 2 fundraisers

That's one hell of a vacation.

[BigA]

But of course it is Comey's fault she lost, or Obama's fault. Can't be her fault. She will never own up to her own mistakes.

It is so fitting that she was sent to her political graveyard by Trump, who many (including myself) thought was nothing but a joke for being in the race in the first place.

Glad Obama is calling her out for her laziness.

Clinton campaign schedule:
Travels of Hillary Clinton--August 2016
August 18 - New York, NY
August 19 - Martha's Vineyard, MA
August 20 - Nantucket, MA, Martha's Vineyard, MA - 5 fundraisers
August 21 - Provincetown, MA, Osterville, MA - 2 fundraisers
August 22 - Beverly Hills, CA - 2 fundraisers
August 23 - Los Angeles, CA, Laguna Beach, CA, Piedmont, CA - 4 fundraisers
August 24 - Redwood City, CA, Los Altos, CA, Woodside, CA - 3 fundraisers
August 25 - Reno, NV - urban swing state campaign event
August 26 - None
August 27 - White Plains, NY
August 28 - Sag Harbor, NY, Southampton, NY, Bridgehampton, NY - 3 fundraisers
August 29 - East Hampton, NY, Quogue, NY - 2 fundraisers

That's one hell of a vacation.

Look at all the fundraisers. They had $150 million left in the bank on election day that they didn't spend.

[BigA]

The Clinton campaign never went back to Wisconsin after she lost to Sanders there, and only went back to Michigan (which she also lost to Sanders) the last weekend.

But of course it is Comey's fault she lost, or Obama's fault. Can't be her fault. She will never own up to her own mistakes.

It is so fitting that she was sent to her political graveyard by Trump, who many (including myself) thought was nothing but a joke for being in the race in the first place.

Glad Obama is calling her out for her laziness.

In-fairness, the Comey complaint is legitimate which is why the Trump campaign was so gleeful when Comey dropped the bogus bombshell. As an aside, the entire eMail "scandal" was completely overblown and puffed-up to be something it never was.

Republican witch hunts were successful in crippling both Clintons. Most Americans will never remember that Bill Clinton was impeached as an off-shoot of the failed and ridiculous Whitewater witch hunt and Hillary was buried after the failed Benghazi witch hunt which found ....the emails, in both cases "they found something" even if it wasn't the subject of the original investigation.

Yes, it was diabolical for Comey and the evil Republicans to force HRC to use a private server for all her government communications, lie about every aspect of it for months, and create a situation where classified emails would be saved on Weiner's laptop along with his d**k pics.

That aside, whether Comey's letter and later statement had any impact on the voting is an interesting question. From what I've seen, the main thing that happened over the last few weeks is that many Republicans and Independents who had serious reservations about Trump found some way to hold their noses and vote for him. These are people who were never going to vote for Clinton. I'm skeptical that the Comey stuff had much effect on these voters. IMO, Kellyanne Conway's success in keeping Trump from saying/tweeting as much stupid/outrageous stuff from mid-October on was probably the most important factor in this late break. Note that Trump still ran behind other GOP candidates in most parts of the country.

Did the Comey two-step depress the turnout for Clinton in a meaningful way? I'm agnostic and would be interested to see any survey data that shed light on this. If there was some depression of turnout for Clinton from late campaign developments, the Wikileaks revelations might have been more important than the FBI stuff. They confirmed the extent to which the DNC and many media figures were actively working to support Clinton and undermine Sanders during the primaries. I suspect that even this had only a marginal impact, and that Clinton's turnout was largely baked in.

[tontoz]

Only 51% of college educated white women voted for Clinton. Given the revelations about Trump's treatment of women that is a big slap in the face to the nation's first female presidential nominee.

I doubt that Comey (who refused to indict her and whose wife got a $400k+ donation from a Clinton supporter) is the reason why white women turned their backs on Clinton.

[BigA]

Only 51% of college educated white women voted for Clinton. Given the revelations about Trump's treatment of women that is a big slap in the face to the nation's first female presidential nominee.

I doubt that Comey (who refused to indict her and whose wife got a $400k+ donation from a Clinton supporter) is the reason why white women turned their backs on Clinton.

It was Comey's deputy, Andrew McCabe, whose wife got the donations from Gov. McAuliffe's PAC and the VA Democratic party for her State Senate run.

There's some interesting reporting on McCabe's role in the separate investigation of the Clinton Foundation.

[closg00]

Totally agree about Conway, she single-handily saved Trumps ass.

Again, the email scandal was bogus as ultimately no evidence of any harm was found. Out of the thousands of emails, a small number were not properly labeled at Classified at the top, the classification was inside the body with a (c). The GOP ran with this, willfully distorted the facts, and as has been forgotten, THEY ADMITTED it was witch hunt designed to damage Clinton, case closed right there.

[tontoz]

Totally agree about Conway, she single-handily saved Trumps ass.

Again, the email scandal was bogus as ultimately no evidence of any harm was found. Out of the thousands of emails, a small number were not properly labeled at Classified at the top, the classification was inside the body with a (c). The GOP ran with this, willfully distorted the facts, and as has been forgotten, THEY ADMITTED it was witch hunt designed to damage Clinton, case closed right there.

That is simply wrong. There was plenty of damaging things found, and posted on here. You are just choosing to ignore it.

Pay for play with the Clinton foundation, foundation money used by Chelsea for personal reasons, I could go on but you will just ignore it again.

[nate33]

I guess above all I'm sorry to find you without any real interest in, for example, reading some actual science, e.g. a good book on evolution. Whether the grand synthesis stuff by Dobzhansky (sp?) et. al. or the more recent reworkings ala 4-dimensional evolution. Instead, you live inside the shell of racism and quote from sources within that ideological system. Not much different intellectually from the insistence that the sun revolved around the Earth -- for that too all kinds of "science" was presented as support. As in this case, the reason was ideology -- Xtian ideology back then, racist ideology in the case under discussion. Your justification, if I understand it, is that you are a nice guy, you don't hate black people, etc. You can't be a racist. But, of course that's utterly irrelevant as I point out above.

I have not desire to spend my next six hours going back and forth with you on these issues, because then I become the guy that only talks about race. You go on telling yourself that race doesn't exist and IQ is meaningless if that's the way you can deal with the cognitive dissonance. You're not going to listen to anything I say anyhow.

I suggest you read Nicholas Wade's A Troublesome Inheritance and Charles Murray's The Bell Curve for more information. After you read them, we can revisit this conversation.