Political Roundtable Part XI

[TGW]

Looks like President-elect Dufus is going to have to stay after class for extra help from Obama:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-spend-time-trump-provide-guidance-report-article-1.2872484

What a dolt. Anyway, I'm laughing at these terrible cabinet appointees...Trump basically combed through the conservative media outlets and handpicked his appointees.

Lara Ingraham? Bannon? Jeezus H. Krist this is sad.

[nate33]

Totally agree about Conway, she single-handily saved Trumps ass.

Again, the email scandal was bogus as ultimately no evidence of any harm was found. Out of the thousands of emails, a small number were not properly labeled at Classified at the top, the classification was inside the body with a (c). The GOP ran with this, willfully distorted the facts, and as has been forgotten, THEY ADMITTED it was witch hunt designed to damage Clinton, case closed right there.

Conway was very helpful, but I suspect it was Bannon who actually harnessed Trump. Conway managed the campaign, Bannon managed Trump.

[nate33]

Looks like President-elect Dufus is going to have to stay after class for extra help from Obama:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-spend-time-trump-provide-guidance-report-article-1.2872484

What a dolt. Anyway, I'm laughing at these terrible cabinet appointees...Trump basically combed through the conservative media outlets and handpicked his appointees.

Lara Ingraham? Bannon? Jeezus H. Krist this is sad.

Whatever dude. Bannon is a formidable guy who just engineered a Presidential victory after taking over control of a campaign that was down 12% in the polls. It's why so many in the media are apoplectic. Priebus, as RNC Chair, has led the GOP to it's most powerful position since 1928 in terms of Congressional seats in Federal and State governments. And Ingraham's role as press secretary is communication, so her experience as a highbrow conservative talk show host is perfect. Trump wasn't going to surround himself with the same old DC crowd from the Bush administration. Get used to it.

That said, I'm a little concerned about these Secretary of State rumors. If Bolton and Giuliani are the only candidates, than something is very wrong with the decision process. I'm hoping this is all a smokescreen and that they're actually vetting other people.

[TGW]

Totally agree about Conway, she single-handily saved Trumps ass.

Again, the email scandal was bogus as ultimately no evidence of any harm was found. Out of the thousands of emails, a small number were not properly labeled at Classified at the top, the classification was inside the body with a (c). The GOP ran with this, willfully distorted the facts, and as has been forgotten, THEY ADMITTED it was witch hunt designed to damage Clinton, case closed right there.

That is simply wrong. There was plenty of damaging things found, and posted on here. You are just choosing to ignore it.

Pay for play with the Clinton foundation, foundation money used by Chelsea for personal reasons, I could go on but you will just ignore it again.

Not only that, but the outright collusion between the DNC and Hillary's people during the primaries, Hillary subverting the Haitian elections, etc.

It's sad how the third way centrists dems choose to turn a blind eye to it...they'd be crying foul if it was anyone else.

[closg00]

Totally agree about Conway, she single-handily saved Trumps ass.

Again, the email scandal was bogus as ultimately no evidence of any harm was found. Out of the thousands of emails, a small number were not properly labeled at Classified at the top, the classification was inside the body with a (c). The GOP ran with this, willfully distorted the facts, and as has been forgotten, THEY ADMITTED it was witch hunt designed to damage Clinton, case closed right there.

That is simply wrong. There was plenty of damaging things found, and posted on here. You are just choosing to ignore it.

Pay for play with the Clinton foundation, foundation money used by Chelsea for personal reasons, I could go on but you will just ignore it again.

Again, the original witch hunt was all about Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi. But there was nothing to hang her with there but LOOK HERE, emails, let's do that. Later it was Clinton Foundation lies.

Imagine what Trumps private emails look like, or his full tax returns which he refused to release. Hypocritical politics all-round.

[tontoz]

Totally agree about Conway, she single-handily saved Trumps ass.

Again, the email scandal was bogus as ultimately no evidence of any harm was found. Out of the thousands of emails, a small number were not properly labeled at Classified at the top, the classification was inside the body with a (c). The GOP ran with this, willfully distorted the facts, and as has been forgotten, THEY ADMITTED it was witch hunt designed to damage Clinton, case closed right there.

That is simply wrong. There was plenty of damaging things found, and posted on here. You are just choosing to ignore it.

Pay for play with the Clinton foundation, foundation money used by Chelsea for personal reasons, I could go on but you will just ignore it again.

Again, the original witch hunt was all about Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi. But there was nothing to hang her with there but LOOK HERE, emails, let's do that. Later it was Clinton Foundation lies.

Imagine what Trumps private emails look like, or his full tax returns which he refused to release. Hypocritical politics all-round.

Trump wasn't working for the State Dept so his emails are irrelevant. They weren't top secret.

Hillary should have used a secure server but she chose not to. If she had just followed the rules none of this would have happened. But if she just followed the rules she wouldn't be Hillary. Bending/breaking the rules as she sees fit is SOP for her.

She was already cleared about Benghazi but there was the issue of the 30k emails that were deleted. The Wikileaks emails weren't about Benghazi.

Even her own people were mocking her for her inability to remember public statements. I remember someone saying that she doesn't live on planet Earth or something to that effect.

[TGW]

^^^It was Podesta, and he was absolutely correct. Hillary lives in an echo-chamber where she blocks out any negative media or critiques of her behavior or character. Not only that, she believes that she's much smarter than the general public (i.e. her comments on a public and private stance on issues) and she's very out-of-touch with everyday people.

No the emails weren't incriminating from a judicial perspective...they just show how a person in her position simply abuses the power that comes with it.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[payitforward]

Looks like President-elect Dufus is going to have to stay after class for extra help from Obama:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-spend-time-trump-provide-guidance-report-article-1.2872484

What a dolt. Anyway, I'm laughing at these terrible cabinet appointees...Trump basically combed through the conservative media outlets and handpicked his appointees.

Lara Ingraham? Bannon? Jeezus H. Krist this is sad.

Whatever dude. Bannon is a formidable guy who just engineered a Presidential victory after taking over control of a campaign that was down 12% in the polls. It's why so many in the media are apoplectic. Priebus, as RNC Chair, has led the GOP to it's most powerful position since 1928 in terms of Congressional seats in Federal and State governments. And Ingraham's role as press secretary is communication, so her experience as a highbrow conservative talk show host is perfect. Trump wasn't going to surround himself with the same old DC crowd from the Bush administration. Get used to it.

That said, I'm a little concerned about these Secretary of State rumors. If Bolton and Giuliani are the only candidates, than something is very wrong with the decision process. I'm hoping this is all a smokescreen and that they're actually vetting other people.

Clearly, Bannon is a formidable dude -- that's what is worrisome. He's a terrific marketeer. Biggest problem I see is the low profile given to focus on and expertise with issues.

Another way to put it: I don't see Trump as a "conservative" in any historically meaningful sense of the word. Conservatism has always had an internal conflict between its two founding tendencies: 1) the value of existing institutions, especially traditional institutions (from Edmund Burke) and 2) laissez faire economics (from Adam Smith). This is all about issues, and the conflict has often been dynamic -- useful.

But, Trump doesn't fit any of that. Instead, he seems to better fit the "populist demagogue" model where there's a "leader" who embodies the desires of the people for "change" and shows "the way." Now, in principle our extremely deep institutions and their history should rein that in to where it has relatively little effect. But, if he appoints people who are even further out that spectrum to positions that affect issues, then I'm worried. I don't mean Priebus or Ingraham; but Bannon worries me. Ditto Giuliani or Bolton taking on the single most important appointed position in the executive branch.

[payitforward]

I guess above all I'm sorry to find you without any real interest in, for example, reading some actual science, e.g. a good book on evolution. Whether the grand synthesis stuff by Dobzhansky (sp?) et. al. or the more recent reworkings ala 4-dimensional evolution. Instead, you live inside the shell of racism and quote from sources within that ideological system. Not much different intellectually from the insistence that the sun revolved around the Earth -- for that too all kinds of "science" was presented as support. As in this case, the reason was ideology -- Xtian ideology back then, racist ideology in the case under discussion. Your justification, if I understand it, is that you are a nice guy, you don't hate black people, etc. You can't be a racist. But, of course that's utterly irrelevant as I point out above.

I have not desire to spend my next six hours going back and forth with you on these issues, because then I become the guy that only talks about race. You go on telling yourself that race doesn't exist and IQ is meaningless if that's the way you can deal with the cognitive dissonance. You're not going to listen to anything I say anyhow.

I suggest you read Nicholas Wade's A Troublesome Inheritance and Charles Murray's The Bell Curve for more information. After you read them, we can revisit this conversation.

I'm familiar with those books, nate. I'm not someone who tells himself things he wants to be true. Not my nature at all.

But, I agree that we should drop this. 2 last things I'll say:

1. I accept happily that you aren't a racist if the word is taken to mean "someone who wants to do bad things to black people." As I've said, I don't equate racism and prejudice. You seem an even-handed, open-handed person. I would never want to level a personal accusation against you.

2. I think you might profit from looking at how you treated the issue of Ashkenazi Jews in re: a) immigration and b) "race" or "intelligence by race." In the first case, you outlined their advantages in social/historical context; in the 2d you suggested that they are advantaged over "whites" by a genetically superior intelligence (i.e. do better on IQ tests). But, of course no one considers Ashkenazi Jews a "race." No one thinks they have an evolutionary path (i.e. that would have engendered intellectual difference/superiority) on their own.

Considering how easily you treated them as a "race" -- how easily the term "race" extends itself -- may give you a reason and a way to reconsider how you look at this.

But that's for you to decide. I'm with you in believing we should drop this issue here.

[Kanyewest]

The Clinton campaign never went back to Wisconsin after she lost to Sanders there, and only went back to Michigan (which she also lost to Sanders) the last weekend.

But of course it is Comey's fault she lost, or Obama's fault. Can't be her fault. She will never own up to her own mistakes.

It is so fitting that she was sent to her political graveyard by Trump, who many (including myself) thought was nothing but a joke for being in the race in the first place.

Glad Obama is calling her out for her laziness.

The Clinton campaign never went back to Wisconsin after she lost to Sanders there, and only went back to Michigan (which she also lost to Sanders) the last weekend.

But of course it is Comey's fault she lost, or Obama's fault. Can't be her fault. She will never own up to her own mistakes.

It is so fitting that she was sent to her political graveyard by Trump, who many (including myself) thought was nothing but a joke for being in the race in the first place.

Glad Obama is calling her out for her laziness.

I think both are true to an extent. The polls did show a tightening once again after the emails stories surfaced again. And it appears that campaigning more in states like Michigan and Wisconsin could have made a difference. Either of those factors could have raised support by as much as 1% in the battleground states which could have won Clinton the presidency.

Sent from my LG-D851 using RealGM mobile app

[nate33]

I guess above all I'm sorry to find you without any real interest in, for example, reading some actual science, e.g. a good book on evolution. Whether the grand synthesis stuff by Dobzhansky (sp?) et. al. or the more recent reworkings ala 4-dimensional evolution. Instead, you live inside the shell of racism and quote from sources within that ideological system. Not much different intellectually from the insistence that the sun revolved around the Earth -- for that too all kinds of "science" was presented as support. As in this case, the reason was ideology -- Xtian ideology back then, racist ideology in the case under discussion. Your justification, if I understand it, is that you are a nice guy, you don't hate black people, etc. You can't be a racist. But, of course that's utterly irrelevant as I point out above.

I have not desire to spend my next six hours going back and forth with you on these issues, because then I become the guy that only talks about race. You go on telling yourself that race doesn't exist and IQ is meaningless if that's the way you can deal with the cognitive dissonance. You're not going to listen to anything I say anyhow.

I suggest you read Nicholas Wade's A Troublesome Inheritance and Charles Murray's The Bell Curve for more information. After you read them, we can revisit this conversation.

I'm familiar with those books, nate. I'm not someone who tells himself things he wants to be true. Not my nature at all.

But, I agree that we should drop this. 2 last things I'll say:

1. I accept happily that you aren't a racist if the word is taken to mean "someone who wants to do bad things to black people." As I've said, I don't equate racism and prejudice. You seem an even-handed, open-handed person. I would never want to level a personal accusation against you.

2. I think you might profit from looking at how you treated the issue of Ashkenazi Jews in re: a) immigration and b) "race" or "intelligence by race." In the first case, you outlined their advantages in social/historical context; in the 2d you suggested that they are advantaged over "whites" by a genetically superior intelligence (i.e. do better on IQ tests). But, of course no one considers Ashkenazi Jews a "race." No one thinks they have an evolutionary path (i.e. that would have engendered intellectual difference/superiority) on their own.

Considering how easily you treated them as a "race" -- how easily the term "race" extends itself -- may give you a reason and a way to reconsider how you look at this.

But that's for you to decide. I'm with you in believing we should drop this issue here.

Those are fair points, payitforward. I would like to revisit that Askenazi Jews discussion at some point, but not right now.

[DCZards]

Whatever dude. Bannon is a formidable guy who just engineered a Presidential victory after taking over control of a campaign that was down 12% in the polls. It's why so many in the media are apoplectic. Priebus, as RNC Chair, has led the GOP to it's most powerful position since 1928 in terms of Congressional seats in Federal and State governments. And Ingraham's role as press secretary is communication, so her experience as a highbrow conservative talk show host is perfect. Trump wasn't going to surround himself with the same old DC crowd from the Bush administration. Get used to it.

That said, I'm a little concerned about these Secretary of State rumors. If Bolton and Giuliani are the only candidates, than something is very wrong with the decision process. I'm hoping this is all a smokescreen and that they're actually vetting other people.

It doesn't matter what Bannon did during the campaign to help Trump win. The campaign is over...now it's time to govern. And making Bannon, a lightening rod and divisive figure, one of his first presidential appointments was a mistake...assuming Trump is serious about healing the country and the breach he and his campaign are largely responsible for creating.

This is probably just the first of many mistakes that an amateur politician like Trump will make.

[nate33]

Whatever dude. Bannon is a formidable guy who just engineered a Presidential victory after taking over control of a campaign that was down 12% in the polls. It's why so many in the media are apoplectic. Priebus, as RNC Chair, has led the GOP to it's most powerful position since 1928 in terms of Congressional seats in Federal and State governments. And Ingraham's role as press secretary is communication, so her experience as a highbrow conservative talk show host is perfect. Trump wasn't going to surround himself with the same old DC crowd from the Bush administration. Get used to it.

That said, I'm a little concerned about these Secretary of State rumors. If Bolton and Giuliani are the only candidates, than something is very wrong with the decision process. I'm hoping this is all a smokescreen and that they're actually vetting other people.

It doesn't matter what Bannon did during the campaign to help Trump win. The campaign is over...now it's time to govern. And making Bannon, a lightening rod and divisive figure, one of his first presidential appointments was a mistake...assuming Trump is serious about healing the country and the breach he and his campaign are largely responsible for creating.

This is probably just the first of many mistakes that an amateur politician like Trump will make.

[DCZards]

If you're wondering why the anti-Trump protests matter, here's a good explanation.

[nate33]

If you're wondering why the anti-Trump protests matter, here's a good explanation.

It's a reasonable strategy. The problem is that they need to keep the anarchists and other crackpots in line. Peaceful protests may help the anti-Trump cause. Violence, riots, vandalism and assault do not.

[closg00]

One of reasons 50 Top GOP security officials signed that letter coming out against Trump, is because he can be easily triggered and manipulated. Trump is back Tweeting about perceived slights.... As if he has nothing better to do with his time.
Donald Trump Won The Presidency But Is Still Sore About The Popular Vote
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-electoral-college_us_582b103ce4b02d21bbca8624

[Ed Wood]

Even if you want to argue as Wade does that the broad condemnation of ATI is based on its politics and not irresponsible manipulation of existing science and disguise of a lack of substantial evidence as the objections made by most of those on whose work its conclusions are based assert, I'm not sure what you expect to come of saying "let's please revisit this debate once you've read a couple of tracts widely rebuked for unscientific conclusions to fit racist presumptions." Seems very unlikely to play to the crowd you're appealing to.


Edit: whoops, somehow missed that we've clearly moved on, so not worth pursuing further.

[TGW]

One of reasons 50 Top GOP security officials signed that letter coming out against Trump, is because he can be easily triggered and manipulated. Trump is back Tweeting about perceived slights.... As if he has nothing better to do with his time.
Donald Trump Won The Presidency But Is Still Sore About The Popular Vote
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-electoral-college_us_582b103ce4b02d21bbca8624

Dude needs to quit with the twitter and get down to business. This isn't a game show, or reality TV. He needs to get his head out of his backside and start absorbing as much as possible from President Obama. Hopefully, Obama can get thru that thick skull.