Gameday Thread: Spurs at Kings

[-Sammy-]

When: 9:30 PM CT Nov 16th 2016
Where: Golden 1 Center, Sacramento, CA

Returning to the scene of an early-season victory, the good guys will bring a bit of momentum with them; we'll want to maintain it, obviously, as we continue to feel out our identity and rotations. Cousins had a fabulous 37-and-16 game against us previously, so it'll be interesting to see how much Pop massages the rotation at the 5. The Kings tend to lose games this season when Boogie plays big, though, so it may be a matter of letting the big man get his and neutralizing everyone else.

[Nolan]

Should be a good one tonight! Gasol and LMA are going to have to step up on the defensive end if we want to win this one, containing Boogie has to be priority one two and three.

Also no Green or Dedmon for this one.

[inDe_eD]

Man, if it were just Dedmon out, I'd hoped we'd experiment with more Kawhi at the 4. Without Green though, I just don't think that's realistic. Regardless of who plays those minutes at what spot though, can we go back to high usage Kawhi please?

[Nolan]

Man, if it were just Dedmon out, I'd hoped we'd experiment with more Kawhi at the 4. Without Green though, I just don't think that's realistic. Regardless of who plays those minutes at what spot though, can we go back to high usage Kawhi please?

Agreed. I'd really like to see us stagger our lineups more. Sit Parker and Pau early and play them with the bench and force the opposing teams starters to deal with the Kawhi LMA P&R more often.

[inDe_eD]

Man, if it were just Dedmon out, I'd hoped we'd experiment with more Kawhi at the 4. Without Green though, I just don't think that's realistic. Regardless of who plays those minutes at what spot though, can we go back to high usage Kawhi please?

Agreed. I'd really like to see us stagger our lineups more. Sit Parker and Pau early and play them with the bench and force the opposing teams starters to deal with the Kawhi LMA P&R more often.

Yes, this!

Parker doesn't even have to come off the bench, like everyone on PtR or r/Spurs keeps screaming for, he just needs to be pulled at about the 7-8 minute mark and then get the majority of his touches at the start of the 2nd quarter when Kawhi's out. I don't mind pandering to their egos a bit and letting Pau+Parker start, but please don't make me watch Kawhi sit in the corner while Parker dribbles for 18 seconds or Pau posts up.

Kawhi at the 4 with either Dedmon or LA needs to get some RS burn.. It's the only way we're going to compete with GSW or the Clippers this year.

[Nolan]

Yes, this!

Parker doesn't even have to come off the bench, like everyone on PtR or r/Spurs keeps screaming for, he just needs to be pulled at about the 7-8 minute mark and then get the majority of his touches at the start of the 2nd quarter when Kawhi's out. I don't mind pandering to their egos a bit and letting Pau+Parker start, but please don't make me watch Kawhi sit in the corner while Parker dribbles for 18 seconds or Pau posts up.

Kawhi at the 4 with either Dedmon or LA needs to get some RS burn.. It's the only way we're going to compete with GSW or the Clippers this year.

I would like to see a bit of this as well. I'm not as in love with the idea of Kawhi playing the four as I used to be (I think he's far more valuable on the perimeter now mostly for defensive reasons) but I like the idea of playing him there in short bursts against weaker or quicker four's.

Like you I would like to see Parker and Pau come out at the 7 or 8 minute mark and have Mills and whoever the situation calls for (Dedmon, Lee, Bertans, Anderson pick one) come in. Put the ball in Kawhi's hands and play some ugly but effective iso ball. Mills and Green space the floor, LMA draws the defense out or rolls to the hoop, whoever the other big is plants themselves on the opposite block and fights for boards and Kawhi goes to work.

Then the crafty old timers come in and change up the pace by moving the ball and playing some prime Parker era ball.

[inDe_eD]

Yes, this!

Parker doesn't even have to come off the bench, like everyone on PtR or r/Spurs keeps screaming for, he just needs to be pulled at about the 7-8 minute mark and then get the majority of his touches at the start of the 2nd quarter when Kawhi's out. I don't mind pandering to their egos a bit and letting Pau+Parker start, but please don't make me watch Kawhi sit in the corner while Parker dribbles for 18 seconds or Pau posts up.

Kawhi at the 4 with either Dedmon or LA needs to get some RS burn.. It's the only way we're going to compete with GSW or the Clippers this year.

I would like to see a bit of this as well. I'm not as in love with the idea of Kawhi playing the four as I used to be (I think he's far more valuable on the perimeter now mostly for defensive reasons) but I like the idea of playing him there in short bursts against weaker or quicker four's.

Like you I would like to see Parker and Pau come out at the 7 or 8 minute mark and have Mills and whoever the situation calls for (Dedmon, Lee, Bertans, Anderson pick one) come in. Put the ball in Kawhi's hands and play some ugly but effective iso ball. Mills and Green space the floor, LMA draws the defense out or rolls to the hoop, whoever the other big is plants themselves on the opposite block and fights for boards and Kawhi goes to work.

Then the crafty old timers come in and change up the pace by moving the ball and playing some prime Parker era ball.

I think it's his future, and there really isn't a 4 in the league that can guard him. I don't want to wear him out guarding real 4s on the other end though, and I definitely agree that he really shines when he can blanket half of the perimeter on D.

As far as ugliness goes, I think a lot of that has to do with him playing the 3 on offense with two slower bigs. He's been so good at attacking the rim this year, but it's dang hard to replicate when you have TP and one of Green/Anderson/Simmons as your kick to guys. If he's at the 4 you remove another big from the lane and then we see less pullups and more shots at the rim.

I'm probably being a bit idealistic, because I've been a gigantic Kawhi fan since we drafted him, and I think he can do something special this year if we hand him the offense. I just don't get spending too much time trying to keep Parker/Pau placated as they aren't the future. They may have their time and place in the playoffs, but I really wish we could see some of the future lineups get out and run during the RS.

[Nolan]

I think it's his future, and there really isn't a 4 in the league that can guard him. I don't want to wear him out guarding real 4s on the other end though, and I definitely agree that he really shines when he can blanket half of the perimeter on D.

As far as ugliness goes, I think a lot of that has to do with him playing the 3 on offense with two slower bigs. He's been so good at attacking the rim this year, but it's dang hard to replicate when you have TP and one of Green/Anderson/Simmons as your kick to guys. If he's at the 4 you remove another big from the lane and then we see less pullups and more shots at the rim.

I'm probably being a bit idealistic, because I've been a gigantic Kawhi fan since we drafted him, and I think he can do something special this year if we hand him the offense. I just don't get spending too much time trying to keep Parker/Pau placated as they aren't the future. They may have their time and place in the playoffs, but I really wish we could see some of the future lineups get out and run during the RS.

That and the fact that he's the only wing we have that's capable of consistently getting to rim are the two biggest reasons I like him as a three.

I can't really argue with your logic for playing him at the 4 either really. The reality is he's an extremely dangerous and versatile player and we're extremely lucky to have him.

[inDe_eD]

I think it's his future, and there really isn't a 4 in the league that can guard him. I don't want to wear him out guarding real 4s on the other end though, and I definitely agree that he really shines when he can blanket half of the perimeter on D.

As far as ugliness goes, I think a lot of that has to do with him playing the 3 on offense with two slower bigs. He's been so good at attacking the rim this year, but it's dang hard to replicate when you have TP and one of Green/Anderson/Simmons as your kick to guys. If he's at the 4 you remove another big from the lane and then we see less pullups and more shots at the rim.

I'm probably being a bit idealistic, because I've been a gigantic Kawhi fan since we drafted him, and I think he can do something special this year if we hand him the offense. I just don't get spending too much time trying to keep Parker/Pau placated as they aren't the future. They may have their time and place in the playoffs, but I really wish we could see some of the future lineups get out and run during the RS.

That and the fact that he's the only wing we have that's capable of consistently getting to rim are the two biggest reasons I like him as a three.

I can't really argue with your logic for playing him at the 4 either really. The reality is he's an extremely dangerous and versatile player and we're extremely lucky to have him.

Definitely agree there.

I see the shrinking usage and points/assists and get protective ...

[popfan]

I'll add my observations to this conversation.

First, Kawhi Leonard doesn't seem physically ready to carry the load as the primary scorer throughout the season (a la MJ or Kobe). At this point, I don't believe he's there. Over the past three games, he's played with low energy. His baseline fade-away has looked flat. At the end of Friday's game, Kawhi was strangely breathless when Pop pulled him to the bench. On Saturday, the Spurs wisely countered with a more diversified offensive game from Leonard/LA/Gasol, although Kawhi still looked fatigued. And yesterday Kawhi seemed to struggle with the Heat's in-your-face defensive physicality.

Second it's been reported that Pop wants Tony to play more as a facilitator this season. When healthy and fresh, Tony has done this well, I thought. Against the Rockets in one sequence, Kawhi looked flat missing jumpers on consecutive possessions. Next possession, Tony handles the ball early, opts not to pass to an open Kawhi in the corner, dribbles around the horn (for 5-8 seconds), and dumps to Gasol who drains a mid-range jumper. At first, I was unhappy with Tony for not passing to an open Kawhi. But when Gasol took the shot, I could see that Gasol's legs looked fresh. In this case, I thought Tony made the right call.

Lastly it seems to me that the Spurs need to develop into a 'team' rather than into the Kawhi Leonard Show. Reason: the Warriors are integrating 4 All-Stars into their starting lineup. I believe the Spurs will need to do the same with Leonard/LA/Gasol if they expect to beat the 'integrated' Warriors during the playoffs.

Yes, this!

Parker doesn't even have to come off the bench, like everyone on PtR or r/Spurs keeps screaming for, he just needs to be pulled at about the 7-8 minute mark and then get the majority of his touches at the start of the 2nd quarter when Kawhi's out. I don't mind pandering to their egos a bit and letting Pau+Parker start, but please don't make me watch Kawhi sit in the corner while Parker dribbles for 18 seconds or Pau posts up.

Kawhi at the 4 with either Dedmon or LA needs to get some RS burn.. It's the only way we're going to compete with GSW or the Clippers this year.

I would like to see a bit of this as well. I'm not as in love with the idea of Kawhi playing the four as I used to be (I think he's far more valuable on the perimeter now mostly for defensive reasons) but I like the idea of playing him there in short bursts against weaker or quicker four's.

Like you I would like to see Parker and Pau come out at the 7 or 8 minute mark and have Mills and whoever the situation calls for (Dedmon, Lee, Bertans, Anderson pick one) come in. Put the ball in Kawhi's hands and play some ugly but effective iso ball. Mills and Green space the floor, LMA draws the defense out or rolls to the hoop, whoever the other big is plants themselves on the opposite block and fights for boards and Kawhi goes to work.

Then the crafty old timers come in and change up the pace by moving the ball and playing some prime Parker era ball.

I think it's his future, and there really isn't a 4 in the league that can guard him. I don't want to wear him out guarding real 4s on the other end though, and I definitely agree that he really shines when he can blanket half of the perimeter on D.

As far as ugliness goes, I think a lot of that has to do with him playing the 3 on offense with two slower bigs. He's been so good at attacking the rim this year, but it's dang hard to replicate when you have TP and one of Green/Anderson/Simmons as your kick to guys. If he's at the 4 you remove another big from the lane and then we see less pullups and more shots at the rim.

I'm probably being a bit idealistic, because I've been a gigantic Kawhi fan since we drafted him, and I think he can do something special this year if we hand him the offense. I just don't get spending too much time trying to keep Parker/Pau placated as they aren't the future. They may have their time and place in the playoffs, but I really wish we could see some of the future lineups get out and run during the RS.

[ducler]

[-Sammy-]

I'll add my observations to this conversation.

First, Kawhi Leonard doesn't seem physically ready to carry the load as the primary scorer throughout the season (a la MJ or Kobe). At this point, I don't believe he's there. Over the past three games, he's played with low energy. His baseline fade-away has looked flat. At the end of Friday's game, Kawhi was strangely breathless when Pop pulled him to the bench. On Saturday, the Spurs wisely countered with a more diversified offensive game from Leonard/LA/Gasol, although Kawhi still looked fatigued. And yesterday Kawhi seemed to struggle with the Heat's in-your-face defensive physicality.

Second it's been reported that Pop wants Tony to play more as a facilitator this season. When healthy and fresh, Tony has done this well, I thought. Against the Rockets in one sequence, Kawhi looked flat missing jumpers on consecutive possessions. Next possession, Tony handles the ball early, opts not to pass to an open Kawhi in the corner, dribbles around the horn (for 5-8 seconds), and dumps to Gasol who drains a mid-range jumper. At first, I was unhappy with Tony for not passing to an open Kawhi. But when Gasol took the shot, I could see that Gasol's legs looked fresh. In this case, I thought Tony made the right call.

Lastly it seems to me that the Spurs need to develop into a 'team' rather than into the Kawhi Leonard Show. Reason: the Warriors are integrating 4 All-Stars into their starting lineup. I believe the Spurs will need to do the same with Leonard/LA/Gasol if they expect to beat the 'integrated' Warriors during the playoffs.

Great analysis and insight, and I concur with almost all of it.

[-Sammy-]

Vintage Tony!

[-Sammy-]

Nice throwback game for Parker tonight. He's looked good out there.

[-Sammy-]

Well, the Spurs did everything they could, but in spite of their best effort, they weren't able to give this game away at the end.

For heaven's sake.

[inDe_eD]

I'll add my observations to this conversation.

First, Kawhi Leonard doesn't seem physically ready to carry the load as the primary scorer throughout the season (a la MJ or Kobe). At this point, I don't believe he's there. Over the past three games, he's played with low energy. His baseline fade-away has looked flat. At the end of Friday's game, Kawhi was strangely breathless when Pop pulled him to the bench. On Saturday, the Spurs wisely countered with a more diversified offensive game from Leonard/LA/Gasol, although Kawhi still looked fatigued. And yesterday Kawhi seemed to struggle with the Heat's in-your-face defensive physicality.

Second it's been reported that Pop wants Tony to play more as a facilitator this season. When healthy and fresh, Tony has done this well, I thought. Against the Rockets in one sequence, Kawhi looked flat missing jumpers on consecutive possessions. Next possession, Tony handles the ball early, opts not to pass to an open Kawhi in the corner, dribbles around the horn (for 5-8 seconds), and dumps to Gasol who drains a mid-range jumper. At first, I was unhappy with Tony for not passing to an open Kawhi. But when Gasol took the shot, I could see that Gasol's legs looked fresh. In this case, I thought Tony made the right call.

Lastly it seems to me that the Spurs need to develop into a 'team' rather than into the Kawhi Leonard Show. Reason: the Warriors are integrating 4 All-Stars into their starting lineup. I believe the Spurs will need to do the same with Leonard/LA/Gasol if they expect to beat the 'integrated' Warriors during the playoffs.

Honestly, I get where you're coming from, and while your analysis is good, I disagree with your conclusion.

Kawhi definitely does look a little tired. I've seen a lot of very uncharacteristic defensive lapses in the last few games too. I have a hard time believing it's due to the increased usage though. If anything, just reduce Kawhi's minutes, but keep the high usage. I don't know if I've seen him run more than a single P&R the last few games and that's just not a good thing. We should be using this RS to develop and evaluate the young guys, and push Kawhi into superduperstardom. Trying to make Pau a focal part of our offense is going to lead to a first round exit. To be clear, I don't expect to get past GSW or possibly even LAC, but I'd feel like we'd have at least a punchers chance if we had a guy we could lean on offensively like first 5 games Kawhi.

[inDe_eD]

Well, the Spurs did everything they could, but in spite of their best effort, they weren't able to give this game away at the end.

For heaven's sake.

Don't worry, we'll save the "how the hell did that happen" game for the Knicks. It's tradition at this point!

[Phreak50]

Not sure Pop would be happy with 9 three point attempts by Kawhi but he is certainly becoming consistent when set.

[jptremblay]

I'll add my observations to this conversation.

First, Kawhi Leonard doesn't seem physically ready to carry the load as the primary scorer throughout the season (a la MJ or Kobe). At this point, I don't believe he's there. Over the past three games, he's played with low energy. His baseline fade-away has looked flat. At the end of Friday's game, Kawhi was strangely breathless when Pop pulled him to the bench. On Saturday, the Spurs wisely countered with a more diversified offensive game from Leonard/LA/Gasol, although Kawhi still looked fatigued. And yesterday Kawhi seemed to struggle with the Heat's in-your-face defensive physicality.

Second it's been reported that Pop wants Tony to play more as a facilitator this season. When healthy and fresh, Tony has done this well, I thought. Against the Rockets in one sequence, Kawhi looked flat missing jumpers on consecutive possessions. Next possession, Tony handles the ball early, opts not to pass to an open Kawhi in the corner, dribbles around the horn (for 5-8 seconds), and dumps to Gasol who drains a mid-range jumper. At first, I was unhappy with Tony for not passing to an open Kawhi. But when Gasol took the shot, I could see that Gasol's legs looked fresh. In this case, I thought Tony made the right call.

Lastly it seems to me that the Spurs need to develop into a 'team' rather than into the Kawhi Leonard Show. Reason: the Warriors are integrating 4 All-Stars into their starting lineup. I believe the Spurs will need to do the same with Leonard/LA/Gasol if they expect to beat the 'integrated' Warriors during the playoffs.

Honestly, I get where you're coming from, and while your analysis is good, I disagree with your conclusion.

Kawhi definitely does look a little tired. I've seen a lot of very uncharacteristic defensive lapses in the last few games too. I have a hard time believing it's due to the increased usage though. If anything, just reduce Kawhi's minutes, but keep the high usage. I don't know if I've seen him run more than a single P&R the last few games and that's just not a good thing. We should be using this RS to develop and evaluate the young guys, and push Kawhi into superduperstardom. Trying to make Pau a focal part of our offense is going to lead to a first round exit. To be clear, I don't expect to get past GSW or possibly even LAC, but I'd feel like we'd have at least a punchers chance if we had a guy we could lean on offensively like first 5 games Kawhi.

??? You prefer the Pau of first 5-6 games who looked like a zombie because he didn't touch much the ball?? If you have sign Gasol to a 15m per year deal...it's to use him as a focal point on offense, not the 1st option, nor the 2nd...but at least 3rd, and to be the third option dosn´t mean that he takes 15-18 shots per game, since he moves the ball very nicely and he's unselfish enough to make at least 4 - 5 assists per game per 36.
I don't know where the Spurs leaded by Pau would or could end...but a superdominant Kawhi hasn't show something much better...especially since he's having his worst season in efficience since 3-4 years...
We don't need a Kobe Leonard, we need an improved and more dominant Kawhi, but that's not happening with him taking lot' of 3s and long 2s. The Spurs system is based on efficiency and great ball movement, something that lacked in many games this year beacuse Kawhi's high-usage.
Kawhi is clearly the best player of the team by far, but he doesn't need to take the Westbrook/Harden role when we have a very deep and talented team, he needs to have the ball, attack the rim, shoot open 3s or at least not difficult ones...and obviuosly he needs to play the pick & Roll and get to the FT line.
You can see the stats of the team when Kawhi is taking a lot of shots this year and the result when he had take less than 20...giving Pau and LA more usage...

[Nolan]

Watched the replay of the game last night. Good team effort from us we almost threw it away at the end but it was never really in question. If Tony keeps this level of play up then I have no problem with us not force feeding Kawhi 24/7.

Pau also looked really really good in this one. Definitely his best all around game as a Spur. He scored in a variety of ways, made some nice passes and played some really really solid defense.

The criticism I have other than our play in the last 4 minutes is that our defense was way too willing to collapse into the paint, even when Cousins wasn't in the game and that resulted in us giving up a few too many easy looks from 3.