Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets

[Frank Lee]

Gotta play Tuck to trade Tuck.

Does it really matter anyway? It's not like these rookies are on an accelerated path to success. Most here agree they are 2-3 yrs away.



2 to 3 YEARS.... let that sink in

[kennydorglas]

Nah, Watson just plays them when we've no other options available.
Bender will have to wait for a big time injury to get inserted in the lineup.

And I didnt wanted to be the one to say this: What is raw about Ulis' game? We drafted him to please Book?
If you dont play him because he's short and thin... you know this will NEVER change, right?

It's just tough, man. You can try to flip the narrative the way you want... what is happening here isnt optimal at all.

[bwgood77]

We draft 2 of the rawest, youngest players in the draft that we knew immediately would be long term projects, and 12 games into the season everyone is already flipping their **** because they aren't playing much lol. It's pretty mind boggling. Chriss was the least developed player taken in the lottery, and Bender might have been the 2nd least developed, these guys are going to take time to get where they need to be to see significant playing time.

If you look at these kids without your "Rookies can do no wrong" glasses on, you'll see that these kids aren't ready to get 20+ minutes a game. Chriss can't play a lick of defense, turns the ball over like crazy despite having low usage, doesn't offer much on offense outside of the occasional open jump shot or highlight dunk, and still took over the starting job, of which he is undoubtably a bottom 5 starting PF in terms of immediate skill level. Bender has shown flashes of brilliance in limited minutes because he has a high basketball IQ, which excites everyone including me, but he doesn't have the physicality and confidence to be playing extended minutes at his natural position or the raw athleticism to compensate for it, and when we play him out of position on the perimeter he is ineffective because he just floats around the perimeter waiting for a kick out to catch and shoot because he's not strong enough or quick enough to take advantage of small forwards off the bounce yet.

I'm not saying PJ (aka the only guy everyone is talking about when they say vets are taking rookie minutes) has been performing significantly better thus far, because he's sucked too, but is it really hard to under why the guy that just lost his starting job to another one of our young guys prior to this season and has worked his ass off for this organization for years is getting playing time over a rookie that isn't physically ready to compete yet?

Be patient, the real development for Bender and Chriss isn't going to come from an extra 5-10 minutes on the court, it'll come from hours in the gym working on their game.

What the ****? On what planet do Chriss/Bender/Ulis become better players when we play Tucker/Len/etc? I understand Chandler (rebounding/defense), Dudley (shooting) and Barbosa (speed/shooting). Tucker should be sitting on the bench until we need a defensive play near end game. Len is the most worthless defender on this team and has shown that he is pretty much Archie 2.0.

Meanwhile other teams like the Lakers are playing their youth. Get a clue and stop with the excuses. Watson is an idiot that doesn't understand how to developer our youth. Period.

Jesus Christ, do I have to spell it for you? PLAYING TIME DOES NOT EQUAL DEVELOPMENT. I don't know if you've ever played competitive basketball in your life, but players get better putting in work in practice and spending hours in the gym after, not because they're getting forced into minutes despite not being ready for it. That **** makes zero difference, hell it can even kill their confidence when they're getting dominated on both sides of the floor by grown ass men.

Other teams like the Lakers and who??? You're acting like Brandon Ingram wasn't arguably the best player coming into this draft, and the 2 guys we draft weren't 2 of the rawest players taken in the lottery. Maybe you should get a clue with how development actually happens and quit bitching about guys that aren't good enough to be on the court not getting minutes. Period.

I do agree that most development will take part in practice and just working tirelessly to get better at what you need to to get on the court. I argued as much with TJ and Booker who people wanted to see on the court, and they likely did so, didn't play a ton early, and when they finally did get on the court, they looked good. TJ has gotten better defensively (still not always good though) and Booker at times looks like a real offensive high iq guy. They still have work to do too though.

I know I'm kind of being a little different than I had been in the past in arguing that Bender should get more time, as he is far more raw than TJ was and more raw than Booker too, and I never whined about them not being out there like many others. I guess what frustrates me more is to see Chriss starting and getting so many more minutes than Bender, who looks far more ready for minutes if either of them are getting any. I think Bender looks like he can hold his own, for the most part, defensively. I'm not saying he is great in that department, but neither is a guy like Booker. He has a high IQ offensively and makes the right pass, shoots when he's open, etc. Chriss often looks lost. I guess I'd just like to see more of him as we were all excited to see youth and at this point are tired of seeing Tucker. I have always liked Tucker too, probably as much or more than anyone here.

I do respect your opinion though, having played college ball though, so people telling you to get a clue is kind of ridiculous.

[OnceUponADime]

We're 12 games in and our very raw rookies have played some inconsistent minutes and logged a few DNP's. It's not the end of the world, RELAX. Playing well in a few games and stinking it up in the rest is not going to get you consistent minutes over a proven veteran even if they haven't played up to their standards.

I strongly believe in a structured approach to giving our young guys minutes. Giving PT to young players who neither deserves it nor are ready for it, isn't the best way to develop them. Playing time is important but it's only one part of development process. Like I've said before, even if they don't play minutes, they are still developing. They are still putting time in practice, in the gym and just being around the veterans to see how they carry themselves through a rigorous 82 game season.

And just for some perspective, Marquese Chriss, likely one of the least experienced players we've drafted in some time, is starting for us. A 19 year old who only started playing competitive basketball in HS is starting for an NBA team. You wanna talk about development minutes, there you are.

Does it really matter if he's starting if he's only gonna get 12 minutes of play like he did yesterday?

I would rather him not start then and get close to 30 mins a game than start and get 12. I would actually rather Bender start over him but that's fine.

For the season, Tucker's averaging 20 mins a game coming off the bench while Chriss is averaging 14.

It's okay if our rookies were coming off the bench because we had stud starters in front of them. But we really don't have that.

[Damkac]

Honestly I only watched 1st quarter and part of 2nd but I think I saw 3-4 airballs by Suns players. How everyone suddenly forgot how to shoot?

What is raw about Ulis' game? We drafted him to please Book?

Yes.
If Bledsoe, Knight and Barbosa all get injured maybe we will see some Ulis. But Watson may try playing Tucker at pg then.
Which is sad because he can play and deserve minutes.

[lilfishi22]

We're 12 games in and our very raw rookies have played some inconsistent minutes and logged a few DNP's. It's not the end of the world, RELAX. Playing well in a few games and stinking it up in the rest is not going to get you consistent minutes over a proven veteran even if they haven't played up to their standards.

I strongly believe in a structured approach to giving our young guys minutes. Giving PT to young players who neither deserves it nor are ready for it, isn't the best way to develop them. Playing time is important but it's only one part of development process. Like I've said before, even if they don't play minutes, they are still developing. They are still putting time in practice, in the gym and just being around the veterans to see how they carry themselves through a rigorous 82 game season.

And just for some perspective, Marquese Chriss, likely one of the least experienced players we've drafted in some time, is starting for us. A 19 year old who only started playing competitive basketball in HS is starting for an NBA team. You wanna talk about development minutes, there you are.

Does it really matter if he's starting if he's only gonna get 12 minutes of play like he did yesterday?

I would rather him not start then and get close to 30 mins a game than start and get 12. I would actually rather Bender start over him but that's fine.

For the season, Tucker's averaging 20 mins a game coming off the bench while Chriss is averaging 14.

It's okay if our rookies were coming off the bench because we had stud starters in front of them. But we really don't have that.

The fact that he's starting for us, which is a legit step up in competition and responsibility, is already pretty far on that end of the development spectrum. 30min a game might be better but he's not ready for it and I think it's going overboard and it's giving a player minutes just to give him minutes.

I'm really not keen on comparing minutes with the vets because we've drafted three rookies and there just isn't minutes to go around for them and still be competitive. We're already starting Chriss and playing him 14mpg, that's solid development minutes. As for Tucker, he's backing up TJ, another one of our young guys who is getting major minutes. Let's not pretend like PJ is starting, playing 30mpg and holding back our young guys because he's not.

We're 12 games in and I really don't think it's time for an uproar yet regarding rookie minutes. If you told me when we drafted Bender and Chriss that neither would get major minutes two months ago, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. I haven't change my thoughts on this. I just don't think we should suddenly allocated 10-20mpg to these players (that's not minutes we really have to go around) especially if they haven't earned the minutes.

[OnceUponADime]

The Suns stayed after Wednesday’s game in Denver, where they will hold their weekly team yoga session Thursday before heading to Indianapolis for Friday’s game

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2016/11/16/brandon-knight-slowly-adapts-phoenix-suns-bench-role/93999454/

Thank god at least their still doing the yoga, I was a bit worried.

[kennydorglas]

The Suns stayed after Wednesday’s game in Denver, where they will hold their weekly team yoga session Thursday before heading to Indianapolis for Friday’s game

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2016/11/16/brandon-knight-slowly-adapts-phoenix-suns-bench-role/93999454/

Thank god at least their still doing the yoga, I was a bit worried.

Make Yoga Great Again

[DRK]

TL:DR

Im not an advocate of just GIFTING minutes to rookies because theyre rookies. I believe they have to earn their place in the rotation. A sense of accountability needs to be instilled by Watson, and it wouldnt be right to just bench a vet for the sake of playing a rookie.

HOWEVER when players like PJ Tucker and Brandon Knight have been playing atrociously for most of the season, I do not see why Watson still refuses the let Bender play, and Ulis. It is quite clear to most people here that Ulis runs the second unit really well, and Bender is a net positive when he plays, yet PJ and Knight still see alot more minutes. Where is the ****? These rooks have earned a chance to play based on the atrocious play of PJ and Brandon.

PJ simply isnt a basketball player. Hes a wrestler. His complete lack of any skill on the offensive end kills this team who want to play fast and pace+space. You do not need to be a good basketball player to grab rebounds (catch a ball), box out, or stay in front of someone. That is a universal athletic skill not exclusive to basketball. PJ however lacks basketball exclusive skills such as shooting, dribbling, passing, finishing, and I could go on. Bender has earned his place over PJ in the rotation. If Watson wasnt such a hypocrite on his whole "accountability" philosophy, we wouldnt be having this discussion

[MathiasPW]

Because you don't earn minutes with talent, you earn them with effort.

Is Bender more talented than PJ? Certainly. Is Bender more dedicated than PJ? I doubt it.

And vets will mostly get the nod even if the rookies behind them match their effort until the talent discrepancy becomes absurd.