2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[CnG]

MVP is not just based on statistical analysis. The fact that a player like Durant, who's an all time great scorer, is getting wide open shots after wide open shots has to be considered when you're talking about MVP ranking. Context matters buddy, it's not just pure statistical analysis.

Lol?

This literally makes 0 logical sense.

Actually it does a ton of sense. Almost everybody agrees that neither Durant nor Curry deserve to be the MVP because of the exact thing i just said. It's easy to shoot a career high from the field when you have the greatest shooter of all time and (arguably) another top 10 shooter of all time on your team. Durant stats won't impress voters because they believe he's joined a superteam that was still amazing without him, how can you say he's the MVP when they were historically good without him just months ago with the same core?!!

It really doesn't. Nobody is not voting Kevin Durant because he is shooting a high percentage and on more open shots than he was last year, they're not voting Kevin Durant because he's playing with 3 other top 20 players. I don't believe anyone is analysing the shot selection of MVP candidates to penalise people for shooting open shots. Also, joining a new team and immediately having career high numbers on efficiency is not "easy".

I didn't once say Curry or KD deserved MVP, nor do I think either are in the top 3 of the current rankings.

[ThePersianFreak]

Lol?

This literally makes 0 logical sense.

Actually it does a ton of sense. Almost everybody agrees that neither Durant nor Curry deserve to be the MVP because of the exact thing i just said. It's easy to shoot a career high from the field when you have the greatest shooter of all time and (arguably) another top 10 shooter of all time on your team. Durant stats won't impress voters because they believe he's joined a superteam that was still amazing without him, how can you say he's the MVP when they were historically good without him just months ago with the same core?!!

It really doesn't. Nobody is not voting Kevin Durant because he is shooting a high percentage and on more open shots than he was last year, they're not voting Kevin Durant because he's playing with 3 other top 20 players. I don't believe anyone is analysing the shot selection of MVP candidates to penalise people for shooting open shots. Also, joining a new team and immediately having career high numbers on efficiency is not "easy".

I didn't once say Curry or KD deserved MVP, nor do I think either are in the top 3 of the current rankings.

Come on man, you know what i meant by that sentence. That dude said statistically he's having a monster season and i told him stats without context don't mean anything and being chosen as the MVP isn't just based on pure statistical analysis. I used the "open shots" example to just clarify what i mean by saying "stats aren't everything".

Unfortunetely i don't speak English that smoothly so maybe i cant translate my thoughts to words the way i should.

[CnG]

Actually it does a ton of sense. Almost everybody agrees that neither Durant nor Curry deserve to be the MVP because of the exact thing i just said. It's easy to shoot a career high from the field when you have the greatest shooter of all time and (arguably) another top 10 shooter of all time on your team. Durant stats won't impress voters because they believe he's joined a superteam that was still amazing without him, how can you say he's the MVP when they were historically good without him just months ago with the same core?!!

It really doesn't. Nobody is not voting Kevin Durant because he is shooting a high percentage and on more open shots than he was last year, they're not voting Kevin Durant because he's playing with 3 other top 20 players. I don't believe anyone is analysing the shot selection of MVP candidates to penalise people for shooting open shots. Also, joining a new team and immediately having career high numbers on efficiency is not "easy".

I didn't once say Curry or KD deserved MVP, nor do I think either are in the top 3 of the current rankings.

Come on man, you know what i meant by that sentence. That dude said statistically he's having a monster season and i told him stats without context don't mean anything and being chosen as the MVP isn't just based on pure statistical analysis. I used the "open shots" example to just clarify what i mean by saying "stats aren't everything".

Unfortunetely i don't speak English that smoothly so maybe i cant translate my thoughts to words the way i should.

I agree that there's more to winning the MVP than statistics, a strong narrative helps. I also agree that I don't think Durant will or should win the MVP (currently), but you can't dimiss how he's been playing as "easy" just because he's playing with Steph. He really has been playing exceptionally and I don't think there's a lot wrong with people having him in the discussion (6-10 range). 28 PPG on a TS% of 67.8% is amazing and by far the best of anyone on a similar volume, regardless of who he plays with.

[Triples333]

It really doesn't. Nobody is not voting Kevin Durant because he is shooting a high percentage and on more open shots than he was last year, they're not voting Kevin Durant because he's playing with 3 other top 20 players. I don't believe anyone is analysing the shot selection of MVP candidates to penalise people for shooting open shots. Also, joining a new team and immediately having career high numbers on efficiency is not "easy".

I didn't once say Curry or KD deserved MVP, nor do I think either are in the top 3 of the current rankings.

Come on man, you know what i meant by that sentence. That dude said statistically he's having a monster season and i told him stats without context don't mean anything and being chosen as the MVP isn't just based on pure statistical analysis. I used the "open shots" example to just clarify what i mean by saying "stats aren't everything".

Unfortunetely i don't speak English that smoothly so maybe i cant translate my thoughts to words the way i should.

I agree that there's more to winning the MVP than statistics, a strong narrative helps. I also agree that I don't think Durant will or should win the MVP (currently), but you can't dimiss how he's been playing as "easy" just because he's playing with Steph. He really has been playing exceptionally and I don't think there's a lot wrong with people having him in the discussion (6-10 range). 28 PPG on a TS% of 67.8% is amazing and by far the best of anyone on a similar volume, regardless of who he plays with.

Funny thing is that was Currys exact PPG and TS 3 days ago. Always tough for him against Boston and Milwaukee.

[ThePersianFreak]

It really doesn't. Nobody is not voting Kevin Durant because he is shooting a high percentage and on more open shots than he was last year, they're not voting Kevin Durant because he's playing with 3 other top 20 players. I don't believe anyone is analysing the shot selection of MVP candidates to penalise people for shooting open shots. Also, joining a new team and immediately having career high numbers on efficiency is not "easy".

I didn't once say Curry or KD deserved MVP, nor do I think either are in the top 3 of the current rankings.

Come on man, you know what i meant by that sentence. That dude said statistically he's having a monster season and i told him stats without context don't mean anything and being chosen as the MVP isn't just based on pure statistical analysis. I used the "open shots" example to just clarify what i mean by saying "stats aren't everything".

Unfortunetely i don't speak English that smoothly so maybe i cant translate my thoughts to words the way i should.

I agree that there's more to winning the MVP than statistics, a strong narrative helps. I also agree that I don't think Durant will or should win the MVP (currently), but you can't dimiss how he's been playing as "easy" just because he's playing with Steph. He really has been playing exceptionally and I don't think there's a lot wrong with people having him in the discussion (6-10 range). 28 PPG on a TS% of 67.8% is amazing and by far the best of anyone on a similar volume, regardless of who he plays with.

I basically agree with everything you just said

[Ballerhogger]

5 -18 22 pts for Butler against good competition. Not a MVP night .

[The_Hater]

5 -18 22 pts for Butler against good competition. Not a MVP night .

He's definitely a darkhorse at best unless he can keep his current level while the Bulls jump up to 55 wins or so.

Right now the serious MVP pool is Harden, Paul, Westbrook, Bron, Leonard, Durant and Curry.

Out of that group, I would give Curry the worst odds. Voters just aren't going to want to give him 3 in a row when he might not even be the best player on his team. Anthony Davis could move into the mix if he can turn the Pels season around and get them into the playoffs. He's got MVP numbers and ability.

[MisterHibachi]

To everyone putting both Durant and Curry in the MVP discussions: can you explain how they both deserve to be considered most valuable? Doesn't them both playing at such a level exclude them from discussion?

[The_Hater]

To everyone putting both Durant and Curry in the MVP discussions: can you explain how they both deserve to be considered most valuable? Doesn't them both playing at such a level exclude them from discussion?

For me it's not necessarily my personal opinion, I'm trying to gauge what voters will look at. And if the Warriors end up with by far the best offense in league history (likely) and win somewhere around 70 games again, they will get attention. Plus voting for the best player on the leagues best team will always be a popular MVP choice for many.

[Styrian]

To everyone putting both Durant and Curry in the MVP discussions: can you explain how they both deserve to be considered most valuable? Doesn't them both playing at such a level exclude them from discussion?

They have produced the best offense in league history by decent margin so far(http://bkref.com/tiny/Jz7GS). If you replace either Curry or Durant with any other player in the league that doesn't happen IMO.

[MisterHibachi]

To everyone putting both Durant and Curry in the MVP discussions: can you explain how they both deserve to be considered most valuable? Doesn't them both playing at such a level exclude them from discussion?

They have produced the best offense in league history by decent margin so far(http://bkref.com/tiny/Jz7GS). If you replace either Curry or Durant with any other player in the league that doesn't happen IMO.

Golden State was at 114.5 ORtg (+8.1) last year without Durant. They're at +10.3 this year. On the other hand, their defense is a +2.1 this year, and was -2.6 last year. Improved 2.2 points on offense and lost 4.7 points on defense. So far, Durant hasn't improved the team overall relative to last year.

And keep in mind they've played the easiest schedule in the league thus far, and that has been used against MVP candidates on this very board in past years.

[Triples333]

To everyone putting both Durant and Curry in the MVP discussions: can you explain how they both deserve to be considered most valuable? Doesn't them both playing at such a level exclude them from discussion?

While I agree neither of these two will win, two players on the same team both in the top-5 for the MVP discussion is not a new phenomenon. You're looking at MVP through a certain prism that many simply don't share.

As far as GS playing "the easiest schedule thus far". Hint: the best team(s) in the Western Conference generally always plays "the easiest schedule" on paper. No voter cares, neither should you. It's not college football, they all play each other.

[Sebastian]

5 -18 22 pts for Butler against good competition. Not a MVP night .

On the plus side his bad games are of the second three peat MJ variety, where he still finds a way to score moderately efficiently and play pesky defense even when he can't find his shot. His impact on the game is almost always positive. If he can shoot around 47/38/85 while still getting to the line about ten times a game, his numbers and impact won't dip much as the season goes on and he'll be in the discussion as long as the Bulls play like a 50ish win team.

.304 WS/48 at the moment -- just insane. A lot of different metrics absolutely love him (also #3 in RPM right now). I don't see him falling off like some of the other guys who are off to hot starts.

[Ballerhogger]

5 -18 22 pts for Butler against good competition. Not a MVP night .

On the plus side his bad games are of the second three peat MJ variety, where he still finds a way to score moderately efficiently and play pesky defense even when he can't find his shot. His impact on the game is almost always positive. If he can shoot around 47/38/85 while still getting to the line about ten times a game, his numbers and impact won't dip much as the season goes on and he'll be in the discussion as long as the Bulls play like a 50ish win team.

.304 WS/48 at the moment -- just insane. A lot of different metrics absolutely love him (also #3 in RPM right now). I don't see him falling off like some of the other guys who are off to hot starts.

Thats true he can impact the game defensively as well. Lets see how DeRozan,Lebron do going further . His immediate Eastern Conference challenges.

[Impuniti]

To everyone putting both Durant and Curry in the MVP discussions: can you explain how they both deserve to be considered most valuable? Doesn't them both playing at such a level exclude them from discussion?

Who gives a damn about most valuable in its purest form? If that's the case, then AD would be leading the pack by a monumental amount with Harden and Westbrook right behind him. In the real world however, none of them has a realistic chance. The award is given to arguably the best player during the season when their team finishes 1st or 2nd in a conference. If the Warriors finish 1st and hit 70 wins, one of them will have a chance (by the looks of it, Durant so far into the season). If this award was truly the most valuable, even great and not top 10 players would win MVP on scrub teams because of how bad their teammates really are.

[Bluewaterheaven]

Butler Said he would score 40 against the Lakers, and goes out and scores 40.... Not bad not bad.

[lilswift01]

Butler is bad man. Definitely deserves more hype then he`s getting.

[MisterHibachi]

As far as GS playing "the easiest schedule thus far". Hint: the best team(s) in the Western Conference generally always plays "the easiest schedule" on paper. No voter cares, neither should you. It's not college football, they all play each other.

Clippers: 16th
Warriors: 30th
Spurs: 2nd
Grizzlies: 10th
Rockets: 18th
Thunder: 8th

The Warriors are a class apart in ease of schedule from the other top teams in the Western conference. Over the course of the season I agree it generally evens out, but at this point in the season it matters if you've played the other top teams or not. Anyways, don't want to belabour this point any longer.

For discussion's sake, here is a guy who actually has a vote:

MVP WATCH

(Last week’s averages in parenthesis)

1) LeBron James (24.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 8.5 apg, .655 FG, .615 FT): Cavaliers are now 4-16 when he sits out a game; the latest loss came Wednesday in Indiana.

2) Kawhi Leonard (22.3 ppg, 10 rpg, 4 apg, .438 FG, .842 FT): Brandon Armstrong, Impersonator of the Stars, strikes again.

3) Kevin Durant (28.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 6 apg, .608 FG, .714 FT):Stay in your lane, Drake.

4) Russell Westbrook (31 ppg, 11 rpg, 11.3 apg, 479 FG, .848 FT): Most praise from on high from His Airness, who presented Westbrook for induction into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame last week. Of course, last year, Westbrook presented Kevin Durant into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame. Memories.

5) DeMar DeRozan (25.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 4 apg, .388 FG, .805 FT): Credits grueling offseason workouts, including 5:30 am sessions while in Rio with the Olympic team, for this incredible start to the season.

I obviously disagree with Durant's placement, and everyone needs to be bumped down a spot to make room for CP at #1.

[Triples333]

As far as GS playing "the easiest schedule thus far". Hint: the best team(s) in the Western Conference generally always plays "the easiest schedule" on paper. No voter cares, neither should you. It's not college football, they all play each other.

Clippers: 16th
Warriors: 30th
Spurs: 2nd
Grizzlies: 10th
Rockets: 18th
Thunder: 8th

The Warriors are a class apart in ease of schedule from the other top teams in the Western conference. Over the course of the season I agree it generally evens out, but at this point in the season it matters if you've played the other top teams or not. Anyways, don't want to belabour this point any longer.

For discussion's sake, here is a guy who actually has a vote:

MVP WATCH

(Last week’s averages in parenthesis)

1) LeBron James (24.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 8.5 apg, .655 FG, .615 FT): Cavaliers are now 4-16 when he sits out a game; the latest loss came Wednesday in Indiana.

2) Kawhi Leonard (22.3 ppg, 10 rpg, 4 apg, .438 FG, .842 FT): Brandon Armstrong, Impersonator of the Stars, strikes again.

3) Kevin Durant (28.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 6 apg, .608 FG, .714 FT):Stay in your lane, Drake.

4) Russell Westbrook (31 ppg, 11 rpg, 11.3 apg, 479 FG, .848 FT): Most praise from on high from His Airness, who presented Westbrook for induction into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame last week. Of course, last year, Westbrook presented Kevin Durant into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame. Memories.

5) DeMar DeRozan (25.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 4 apg, .388 FG, .805 FT): Credits grueling offseason workouts, including 5:30 am sessions while in Rio with the Olympic team, for this incredible start to the season.

I obviously disagree with Durant's placement, and everyone needs to be bumped down a spot to make room for CP at #1.

The schedule is meaningless due to it always evening out by and large (and that is not counting travel, which is tiers of difficulty harder on GS than it is on an east coast team like Cleveland... something not yet included in your listed difficulty rankings... but is by the top sports bettors). Bear in mind the majority of their games have been on the road and tonight marks 4 games in 6 nights on the road. They have the 2nd highest win differential and are 11-2. I.e. They're taking care of business despite the chemistry shakeup. If we remember, Miami's big three were a .500 team at this point (and beyond) of their inaugural season (granted, a bigger shakeup than GS had).

The bottom line is that your contention that two players on the same team can't both be top 5 in MVP voting by the nature of them each having each other is proven to be a false premise. In the 2000's Shaq/Kobe alone did it twice (top 6 three times). Bron/Wade went 3/7 in year 1 (Bron winning two of the next 3). CP3 has finished no lower than 7th since 2011 and BG top-3 3 times. 3/7 in 2013.

If the Warriors finish as the 1 seed and Curry/KD both put up historically efficient 27+ PPG campaigns they will be perenniel MVP contenders until that changes. To actually win one will have to be clearly more important than the other though.

[ThePersianFreak]

As far as GS playing "the easiest schedule thus far". Hint: the best team(s) in the Western Conference generally always plays "the easiest schedule" on paper. No voter cares, neither should you. It's not college football, they all play each other.

Clippers: 16th
Warriors: 30th
Spurs: 2nd
Grizzlies: 10th
Rockets: 18th
Thunder: 8th

The Warriors are a class apart in ease of schedule from the other top teams in the Western conference. Over the course of the season I agree it generally evens out, but at this point in the season it matters if you've played the other top teams or not. Anyways, don't want to belabour this point any longer.

For discussion's sake, here is a guy who actually has a vote:

MVP WATCH

(Last week’s averages in parenthesis)

1) LeBron James (24.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 8.5 apg, .655 FG, .615 FT): Cavaliers are now 4-16 when he sits out a game; the latest loss came Wednesday in Indiana.

2) Kawhi Leonard (22.3 ppg, 10 rpg, 4 apg, .438 FG, .842 FT): Brandon Armstrong, Impersonator of the Stars, strikes again.

3) Kevin Durant (28.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 6 apg, .608 FG, .714 FT):Stay in your lane, Drake.

4) Russell Westbrook (31 ppg, 11 rpg, 11.3 apg, 479 FG, .848 FT): Most praise from on high from His Airness, who presented Westbrook for induction into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame last week. Of course, last year, Westbrook presented Kevin Durant into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame. Memories.

5) DeMar DeRozan (25.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 4 apg, .388 FG, .805 FT): Credits grueling offseason workouts, including 5:30 am sessions while in Rio with the Olympic team, for this incredible start to the season.

I obviously disagree with Durant's placement, and everyone needs to be bumped down a spot to make room for CP at #1.

The schedule is meaningless due to it always evening out by and large (and that is not counting travel, which is tiers of difficulty harder on GS than it is on an east coast team like Cleveland... something not yet included in your listed difficulty rankings... but is by the top sports bettors). Bear in mind the majority of their games have been on the road and tonight marks 4 games in 6 nights on the road. They have the 2nd highest win differential and are 11-2. I.e. They're taking care of business despite the chemistry shakeup. If we remember, Miami's big three were a .500 team at this point (and beyond) of their inaugural season (granted, a bigger shakeup than GS had).

The bottom line is that your contention that two players on the same team can't both be top 5 in MVP voting by the nature of them each having each other is proven to be a false premise. In the 2000's Shaq/Kobe alone did it twice (top 6 three times). Bron/Wade went 3/7 in year 1 (Bron winning two of the next 3). CP3 has finished no lower than 7th since 2011 and BG top-3 3 times. 3/7 in 2013.

If the Warriors finish as the 1 seed and Curry/KD both put up historically efficient 27+ PPG campaigns they will be perenniel MVP contenders until that changes. To actually win one will have to be clearly more important than the other though.

That's what makes it so hard for those two guys. I think everybody here knows Steph and KD are MVP material players but to win the award one of them should be clearly the better player on the team (like how James became the absolute best player on those Heat teams) wich hasn't been the case so far and both of them have been equally great.