2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[The_Hater]

To everyone putting both Durant and Curry in the MVP discussions: can you explain how they both deserve to be considered most valuable? Doesn't them both playing at such a level exclude them from discussion?

They have produced the best offense in league history by decent margin so far(http://bkref.com/tiny/Jz7GS). If you replace either Curry or Durant with any other player in the league that doesn't happen IMO.

Golden State was at 114.5 ORtg (+8.1) last year without Durant. They're at +10.3 this year. On the other hand, their defense is a +2.1 this year, and was -2.6 last year. Improved 2.2 points on offense and lost 4.7 points on defense. So far, Durant hasn't improved the team overall relative to last year.

And keep in mind they've played the easiest schedule in the league thus far, and that has been used against MVP candidates on this very board in past years.

The Warriors Strength of schedule is ranked 21st most difficult not 30th.

The defense has been much weaker but I wouldn't blame that on Durant as much as losing Bogut and Ezeli their best rim protectors.

[MisterHibachi]

They have produced the best offense in league history by decent margin so far(http://bkref.com/tiny/Jz7GS). If you replace either Curry or Durant with any other player in the league that doesn't happen IMO.

Golden State was at 114.5 ORtg (+8.1) last year without Durant. They're at +10.3 this year. On the other hand, their defense is a +2.1 this year, and was -2.6 last year. Improved 2.2 points on offense and lost 4.7 points on defense. So far, Durant hasn't improved the team overall relative to last year.

And keep in mind they've played the easiest schedule in the league thus far, and that has been used against MVP candidates on this very board in past years.

The Warriors Strength of schedule is ranked 21st most difficult not 30th.

The defense has been much weaker but I wouldn't blame that on Durant as much as losing Bogut and Ezeli their best rim protectors.

It's 30th. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html

[MisterHibachi]

If the Warriors finish as the 1 seed and Curry/KD both put up historically efficient 27+ PPG campaigns they will be perenniel MVP contenders until that changes. To actually win one will have to be clearly more important than the other though.

So they're contenders to win the MVP but not really because one isn't more important than the other? Either they can win or they can't as it stands right now. My original point was: as it stands right now they are negating each other's candidacy because we don't know if one is more important than the other so I don't understand why people are putting them on these lists. To be on a contender you have to be capable of winning the award, that's the definition of contender.

[Triples333]

If the Warriors finish as the 1 seed and Curry/KD both put up historically efficient 27+ PPG campaigns they will be perenniel MVP contenders until that changes. To actually win one will have to be clearly more important than the other though.

So they're contenders to win the MVP but not really because one isn't more important than the other? Either they can win or they can't as it stands right now. My original point was: as it stands right now they are negating each other's candidacy because we don't know if one is more important than the other so I don't understand why people are putting them on these lists. To be on a contender you have to be capable of winning the award, that's the definition of contender.

Nobody here has them at the very top of their lists. They have them 3rd-10th. I think I did an OK job explaining why this is neither unprecedented or odd in any way. And in fact it would be both unprecedented and odd if both were not part of the conversation with their level of individual/team play.

[The_Hater]

Golden State was at 114.5 ORtg (+8.1) last year without Durant. They're at +10.3 this year. On the other hand, their defense is a +2.1 this year, and was -2.6 last year. Improved 2.2 points on offense and lost 4.7 points on defense. So far, Durant hasn't improved the team overall relative to last year.

And keep in mind they've played the easiest schedule in the league thus far, and that has been used against MVP candidates on this very board in past years.

The Warriors Strength of schedule is ranked 21st most difficult not 30th.

The defense has been much weaker but I wouldn't blame that on Durant as much as losing Bogut and Ezeli their best rim protectors.

It's 30th. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html

Another one: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/sagarin/

I've never seen those 2 systems disagree by that much

[The_Hater]

If the Warriors finish as the 1 seed and Curry/KD both put up historically efficient 27+ PPG campaigns they will be perenniel MVP contenders until that changes. To actually win one will have to be clearly more important than the other though.

So they're contenders to win the MVP but not really because one isn't more important than the other? Either they can win or they can't as it stands right now. My original point was: as it stands right now they are negating each other's candidacy because we don't know if one is more important than the other so I don't understand why people are putting them on these lists. To be on a contender you have to be capable of winning the award, that's the definition of contender.

Your thought process isn't wrong, but not every voter isnt going to think this exact way. If the Warriors are the best team in the league once again. One or both of them will get some first place votes. Durant would probably get the most support because voters aren't going to want to reward Curry again.

[PackAttack9]

Greek Freak triple double numbers tonight vs Magic
21 pts (6/13 fg, 9/9 ft), 10 reb, 10 ast, 5 stl, 3 blk

[HotRocks34]

Chris Paul is rolling right now. Guy deserves real props.

[QRich3]

This "best offense in league history" stuff happens every other year after a few games, in the previous seasons the Pacers and the Spurs had the best defense ever after a few games, then it corrected itself to a normal number as the season went on. The 2010 Suns had a better offense at the end of November than the Warriors have now, for instance. If they can maintain these numbers for a whole season it'll be a historic feat, meanwhile it's just another good offensive start.

But I still think that when the Warriors are the best team in the league, several games ahead of the 2nd best record, narratives will turn to Curry or Durant and they'll get a lot of votes.

[Triples333]

This "best offense in league history" stuff happens every other year after a few games, in the previous seasons the Pacers and the Spurs had the best defense ever after a few games, then it corrected itself to a normal number as the season went on. The 2010 Suns had a better offense at the end of November than the Warriors have now, for instance. If they can maintain these numbers for a whole season it'll be a historic feat, meanwhile it's just another good offensive start.

But I still think that when the Warriors are the best team in the league, several games ahead of the 2nd best record, narratives will turn to Curry or Durant and they'll get a lot of votes.

I mean, it's not really tough to understand that they're going to have one of the best offenses ever, if not the best. They're supposed to be in their "gelling" period of the new squad and they're already on pace for the highest rated offense in history. When you have an All-Time great offensive player in their prime on the floor for every minute of every game along with All Star "role players" (until garbage time), this is just how the season is going to go for them on that end (and will only improve). Their concern will be on the other end.

[QRich3]

Eh, I don't think they've had much trouble to 'gel' offensively, they basically play the same way and Durant is just there instead of Barnes. They have three or four new pet plays but they don't even use them that much. Maybe they maintain this offensive level the whole season, but most likely they don't. Like I said before, there's been many teams with this offensive rating or better at some point of November, you can't take that and compare it to whole seasons and proclaim them the best offense ever.

I mean, this is the fifth week of the season, and if you only look at the last two weeks (so a bit below half the season so far), they're not even the best offense in that stretch. They will be great, don't get me wrong, but it's way too early for the GOAT offense talk yet.

[Bomba Navarro]

Jimmy Butler is playing like a superstar and he's getting no credit. He shouldn't be out of the top 10 in the run.

[Impuniti]

Eh, I don't think they've had much trouble to 'gel' offensively, they basically play the same way and Durant is just there instead of Barnes. They have three or four new pet plays but they don't even use them that much. Maybe they maintain this offensive level the whole season, but most likely they don't. Like I said before, there's been many teams with this offensive rating or better at some point of November, you can't take that and compare it to whole seasons and proclaim them the best offense ever.

I mean, this is the fifth week of the season, and if you only look at the last two weeks (so a bit below half the season so far), they're not even the best offense in that stretch. They will be great, don't get me wrong, but it's way too early for the GOAT offense talk yet.

Whose averaged more than the Warriors during that run? Don't tell me it's the Lakeshow.

[miman15]

Jimmy Butler is playing like a superstar and he's getting no credit. He shouldn't be out of the top 10 in the run.

He should be in the top 10. 2nd best player in the east no doubt.

[Ballerhogger]

I guess goatbrook won't be in the final 3 ballot box if his team going useless. Shame really

[QRich3]

Whose averaged more than the Warriors during that run? Don't tell me it's the Lakeshow.

Nah, Clippers edged them by 1.2 points per 100, which is not really very significant because of the sample size. Which was basically my point in the first place

Jimmy Butler should absolutely be in the top 10, probably higher than that. But in the end, team success is gonna discard most of those guys in the top 10 and leave 3 or 4 at most as real candidates.

[Dirk]

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

Feels like I see this at the end of every other game, Lakers, Raptors, Clippers... "but he plays so hard".

If the Rockets win 55 - Harden should be the MVP.

[ken6199]

I guess goatbrook won't be in the final 3 ballot box if his team going useless. Shame really

It's all part of the deal.

Rose in 2011 played with 3 more (borderline) all stars than Dwight, with an inferior (almost 3.0 lower) PER, inferior WS, yet his team got 10 more wins, and he was considered the 'next face of the NBA', while Dwight was just 'the best defender' back then.

Similar reason, Harden got left out for all three NBA teams absolutely not because he had subpar all nba 3rd team production on the court.

It's a shame, but Westbrook isn't the first one, and won't be the last one.

[Ballerhogger]

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

Feels like I see this at the end of every other game, Lakers, Raptors, Clippers... "but he plays so hard".

If the Rockets win 55 - Harden should be the MVP.

The thunder almost came back and beat us . We should of closed the game a lot sooner than that
Harden has a better team and system.

[Ballerhogger]

I guess goatbrook won't be in the final 3 ballot box if his team going useless. Shame really

It's all part of the deal.

Rose in 2011 played with 3 more (borderline) all stars than Dwight, with an inferior (almost 3.0 lower) PER, inferior WS, yet his team got 10 more wins, and he was considered the 'next face of the NBA', while Dwight was just 'the best defender' back then.

Similar reason, Harden got left out for all three NBA teams absolutely not because he had subpar all nba 3rd team production on the court.

It's a shame, but Westbrook isn't the first one, and won't be the last one.

True and Harden defense has never helped him out in the voters eyes.