2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#541 » by warriorschamps » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:07 pm

baldur wrote:i dont respect this award because of the unfair team success criterion. it is named most valuable player award yet the player's team's regular season record is much more important than the player himself's performance. in this sense, we cant include anthony davis in mvp discussion even if he has 35 ppg, 14 rpg and 3 bpg. it is not his fault his teammates being scrub.


Different folks, different opinions. I prefer my MVP to come from a great team 99.9% of the time. Anthony Davis is obviously one of the very best players in the league and he may yet make the playoffs this year. It's still early, they aren't out of it yet. However it this point he wouldn't be my MVP.

The problem I have with giving MVPs to guys that come from medicore or bad teams is numbers never tell the whole story. Think of James Harden last year. Posted outstanding numbers but he played no defense and wasn't a leader on the team. Not saying at was all his fault, it wasn't. The team wasn't good enough to be top 2 in the West last year(or this year) but still you have to take that into consideration. You could say the same thing about Kevin Love when he was in Minnesota, great numbers but not an MVP player for many of the reasons I just listed about Harden.

On the other hand you have a guy like Chris Paul. His numbers are good but not great. But everybody paying attention realize his leadership is probably the single biggest reason the Clips are a NBA best 14-2. If the Clips finish with the best record you will be hard pressed not to give it to him.

I know the Durant/Curry/Warriors haters don't want to hear it but both guys are in my top 4 and both have a STRONG case as to why they are the MVP right now. Durant case is simple. Of all the top ten scorers in the NBA Durant is easily the most efficient so far. And Curry isn't too far behind. Speaking of Curry it has to help his case that he come out with a total "team" mindset. He didn't come into the season worrying about his shot attempts. If anything he took a backseat to help Durant get integrated into the offense. And when he did Curry picked his pace back up. That's the definition of MVP. A guy doing whatever it takes to help his team win not pile up big numbers. You see Lebron doing the same with the Cavs. You see Lebron trying to make winning plays, get teammates invloved, etc. Contrast that to Irving and Love, every time I see them they are trying to score which is fine as long as Lebron is on the team to be a stabilizing force. But without Lebron the Cavs probably go from a one seed to eight seed. That's the definition of MVP.

My early top 5 MVP race.

1)Chris Paul
2)Lebron James
3)Steph Curry
4)Kevin Durant
5)Kawhi Leonard


I wrestled with the Curry/Durant decision but ultimately I decided Steph over KD. Obviously both of those guys are great and there is no wrong decision there but for me I can back to not necessarily which of them have had the better year but which player do I think have made the TEAM better. If I were choosing strictly based on individual perfomances I would of picked KD considering Steph first 4 or 5 games weren't great(not bad but just not great by his standards) and when you've only 15 games into the seasons 4 or 5 games is a lot. But ultimately I believe Steph is the bigger reason the Warriors are on pace to be the best offensive team ever. I also notice the Warriors offense function at a higher level with Steph on the floor and Durant isn't than vice versa. Granted it early but I expect that trend to continue. Like I said for years what make the Warriors offense so unique is you have to defend a dribbler out to 30 feet. That put a defense into all type of comprising positions. That mean more to me than Durant superior one on one skills. Especially in the modern NBA where it's all about ball movement. If it was 15 years ago where it was all about the iso game and one on one skills Durant would be more valuable.

In short I'm glad voters have team success as a HUGE part of the award. Otherwise you could have someone go out that who isn't focused on winning and just gun for big numbers win the award. And in no way, shape or form am I saying Anthony Davis is doing that. He's not. But we've seen guys do that before.

Having said all this there is almost no chance Curry gets it for a third straight year without pulling off something truly historical and even then he still might not get it. When the dust is settled and the smoke is clear, it's likely going to be Paul, Lebron, Durant or Leonard walking away with the award. And if they and their teams go on and do what we expect them to this year you can't complain about that.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#542 » by inquisitive » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:46 pm

50 wins should do it for westb, harden, or davis. not going to be easy. i have a feeling sports writers from the west coast will be the only ones voting for either kd or curry. i get a sense that the others won't vote for them since the warriors were already the best team from last season. also, curry or kd will get their votes split .
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#543 » by Ballerhogger » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:55 pm

Alonzo_Morning wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
Alonzo_Morning wrote:Surely AD comes into proper consideration now

As a 12 seed? What consideration do you think he deserves?


No point looking at standings now with 5 months of the season left, look at trends and stats. Pelicans trending upwards hard and dem stats doe wow

If he can get the pelicans to top 3 seed he can win it.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#544 » by Ballerhogger » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:58 pm

inquisitive wrote:50 wins should do it for westb, harden, or davis. not going to be easy. i have a feeling sports writers from the west coast will be the only ones voting for either kd or curry. i get a sense that the others won't vote for them since the warriors were already the best team from last season. also, curry or kd will get their votes split .

If 50 wins gets a team top 3 seed than they will be on the ballot. I don't see the voters giving it to harden when they look at him defensively.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#545 » by Triples333 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:42 am

Ballerhogger wrote:
Alonzo_Morning wrote:
Triples333 wrote:As a 12 seed? What consideration do you think he deserves?


No point looking at standings now with 5 months of the season left, look at trends and stats. Pelicans trending upwards hard and dem stats doe wow

If he can get the pelicans to top 3 seed he can win it.

Which, he can't.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#546 » by Rastas » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:00 am

Lebron putting a gap between he and Paul after tonight .
Pity Westbrook , Harden and Davis won't have the wins to be in the hunt.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#547 » by Triples333 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:40 am

Rastas wrote:Lebron putting a gap between he and Paul after tonight .
Pity Westbrook , Harden and Davis won't have the wins to be in the hunt.

What makes you think Harden won't? They're on pace to be a borderline 50+ win HCA team and have played the majority of their games on the road to this point. Bron was the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team tonight, and has not been the best player on his team on quite a few occasions this year despite his consistently solid play. I'd venture that Harden has been the Rockets best player every night, or at the very least 95% of them.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#548 » by ThePersianFreak » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:12 am

Triples333 wrote:
Rastas wrote:Lebron putting a gap between he and Paul after tonight .
Pity Westbrook , Harden and Davis won't have the wins to be in the hunt.

What makes you think Harden won't? They're on pace to be a borderline 50+ win HCA team and have played the majority of their games on the road to this point. Bron was the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team tonight, and has not been the best player on his team on quite a few occasions this year despite his consistently solid play. I'd venture that Harden has been the Rockets best player every night, or at the very least 95% of them.


LeBron James after tonight, is a top 2 candidate on many people's list and not a single human being will agree with you that LeBron has not been his team's best player on QUITE A FEW OCCASIONS.
Me personally have him right behind Harden at the 2 spot. Harden's having better stats and his team's winning.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#549 » by Triples333 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:36 am

ThePersianFreak wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
Rastas wrote:Lebron putting a gap between he and Paul after tonight .
Pity Westbrook , Harden and Davis won't have the wins to be in the hunt.

What makes you think Harden won't? They're on pace to be a borderline 50+ win HCA team and have played the majority of their games on the road to this point. Bron was the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team tonight, and has not been the best player on his team on quite a few occasions this year despite his consistently solid play. I'd venture that Harden has been the Rockets best player every night, or at the very least 95% of them.


LeBron James after tonight, is a top 2 candidate on many people's list and not a single human being will agree with you that LeBron has not been his team's best player on QUITE A FEW OCCASIONS.
Me personally have him right behind Harden at the 2 spot. Harden's having better stats and his team's winning.

"Not a single human would agree with me that he has not been the best player on quite a few occasions"? lmfao. Try this game and last game as a starter and work your way back from there.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#550 » by Rastas » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:42 am

ThePersianFreak wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
Rastas wrote:Lebron putting a gap between he and Paul after tonight .
Pity Westbrook , Harden and Davis won't have the wins to be in the hunt.

What makes you think Harden won't? They're on pace to be a borderline 50+ win HCA team and have played the majority of their games on the road to this point. Bron was the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team tonight, and has not been the best player on his team on quite a few occasions this year despite his consistently solid play. I'd venture that Harden has been the Rockets best player every night, or at the very least 95% of them.


LeBron James after tonight, is a top 2 candidate on many people's list and not a single human being will agree with you that LeBron has not been his team's best player on QUITE A FEW OCCASIONS.
Me personally have him right behind Harden at the 2 spot. Harden's having better stats and his team's winning.


If Harden (Rockets) get within 2 or 3 wins of the Cav's at seasons end he is in with a shot.
People always use to use this same best player on best team argument against Lebron - so I guess he now gets to use it against others.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#551 » by ThePersianFreak » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:43 am

Triples333 wrote:
ThePersianFreak wrote:
Triples333 wrote:What makes you think Harden won't? They're on pace to be a borderline 50+ win HCA team and have played the majority of their games on the road to this point. Bron was the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team tonight, and has not been the best player on his team on quite a few occasions this year despite his consistently solid play. I'd venture that Harden has been the Rockets best player every night, or at the very least 95% of them.


LeBron James after tonight, is a top 2 candidate on many people's list and not a single human being will agree with you that LeBron has not been his team's best player on QUITE A FEW OCCASIONS.
Me personally have him right behind Harden at the 2 spot. Harden's having better stats and his team's winning.

"Not a single human would agree with me that he has not been the best player on quite a few occasions"? lmfao. Try this game and last game as a starter and work your way back from there.


Last game he had 31/10/13 and 3 steals. How in the hell was he not the best player on his team? Love had an insane first quarter, but overall LeBron was their best player. And let's not talk about the defensive impact of LeBron.
I know you don't like the guy, but nobody will agree with you on this.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#552 » by Tigersrule » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:54 am

Triples333 wrote:
ThePersianFreak wrote:
Triples333 wrote:What makes you think Harden won't? They're on pace to be a borderline 50+ win HCA team and have played the majority of their games on the road to this point. Bron was the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team tonight, and has not been the best player on his team on quite a few occasions this year despite his consistently solid play. I'd venture that Harden has been the Rockets best player every night, or at the very least 95% of them.


LeBron James after tonight, is a top 2 candidate on many people's list and not a single human being will agree with you that LeBron has not been his team's best player on QUITE A FEW OCCASIONS.
Me personally have him right behind Harden at the 2 spot. Harden's having better stats and his team's winning.

"Not a single human would agree with me that he has not been the best player on quite a few occasions"? lmfao. Try this game and last game as a starter and work your way back from there.

Ok Triples is definitely a Lebron hater lmao..how in the world was he not the best player on the court? Just cuz K Love dropped 34 points in the first quarter, then went on to drop 6 more the rest of the way? Gtfo with that BS lmao..Bron had a 31 pt triple double that game, and have all 7 assists or 8 in that first quarter setting up Love..
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#553 » by Triples333 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:54 am

ThePersianFreak wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
ThePersianFreak wrote:
LeBron James after tonight, is a top 2 candidate on many people's list and not a single human being will agree with you that LeBron has not been his team's best player on QUITE A FEW OCCASIONS.
Me personally have him right behind Harden at the 2 spot. Harden's having better stats and his team's winning.

"Not a single human would agree with me that he has not been the best player on quite a few occasions"? lmfao. Try this game and last game as a starter and work your way back from there.


Last game he had 31/10/13 and 3 steals. How in the hell was he not the best player on his team? Love had an insane first quarter, but overall LeBron was their best player. And let's not talk about the defensive impact of LeBron.
I know you don't like the guy, but nobody will agree with you on this.

Lol homeboy if you guys are arguing that 'Bron was better than Love last game than we just have different ideas of excellence. K Love had literally one of the top-5 best offensive quarters in NBA history, finished the game with a 170 O rating (to 'Bron's 139), and put up 40/8/3 on an 85% TS and 1 TO. Also played 6 less minutes than 'Bron. He was better. D Lillard was also better than Bron if we're talking the game as a whole (40/7/11 with 2 TO's on ridiculous shooting). He's not superman. And there are many players in the NBA who have had better campaigns than him to this point. It is far from a season for the ages.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#554 » by Tigersrule » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:54 am

Tigersrule wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
ThePersianFreak wrote:
LeBron James after tonight, is a top 2 candidate on many people's list and not a single human being will agree with you that LeBron has not been his team's best player on QUITE A FEW OCCASIONS.
Me personally have him right behind Harden at the 2 spot. Harden's having better stats and his team's winning.

"Not a single human would agree with me that he has not been the best player on quite a few occasions"? lmfao. Try this game and last game as a starter and work your way back from there.

Ok Triples is definitely a Lebron hater lmao..how in the world was he not the best player on the court? Just cuz K Love dropped 34 points in the first quarter, then went on to drop 6 more the rest of the way? Gtfo with that BS lmao..Bron had a 31 pt triple double that game, and have all 7 assists or 8 in that first quarter setting up Love..

Lets not forget hes also playing better defense that Harden.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#555 » by Triples333 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:00 am

Tigersrule wrote:
Tigersrule wrote:
Triples333 wrote:"Not a single human would agree with me that he has not been the best player on quite a few occasions"? lmfao. Try this game and last game as a starter and work your way back from there.

Ok Triples is definitely a Lebron hater lmao..how in the world was he not the best player on the court? Just cuz K Love dropped 34 points in the first quarter, then went on to drop 6 more the rest of the way? Gtfo with that BS lmao..Bron had a 31 pt triple double that game, and have all 7 assists or 8 in that first quarter setting up Love..

Lets not forget hes also playing better defense that Harden.

On his career low steals/blocks for a less than middling Cavs D to this point? Yeah, not a great sell either. I'm far from a 'Bron hater, but his performances are being grossly overstated right now.

You guys are talking about a guy who isn't top 5 in WS/48/PER/VORP/RPM etc etc (stats he has consistently always owned through his prime) like he's a savant this season. And he's certainly not carrying his team this season to any degree close to some of his years past. It's just not an MVP performance and/or narrative.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#556 » by MisterHibachi » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:04 am

Triples333 wrote:
Tigersrule wrote:
Tigersrule wrote:Ok Triples is definitely a Lebron hater lmao..how in the world was he not the best player on the court? Just cuz K Love dropped 34 points in the first quarter, then went on to drop 6 more the rest of the way? Gtfo with that BS lmao..Bron had a 31 pt triple double that game, and have all 7 assists or 8 in that first quarter setting up Love..

Lets not forget hes also playing better defense that Harden.

On his career low steals/blocks for a less than middling Cavs D to this point? Yeah, not a great sell either. I'm far from a 'Bron hater, but his performances are being grossly overstated right now.


Mentioning steals/blocks as a good measure of defense?

Image
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#557 » by Triples333 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:17 am

MisterHibachi wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
Tigersrule wrote:Lets not forget hes also playing better defense that Harden.

On his career low steals/blocks for a less than middling Cavs D to this point? Yeah, not a great sell either. I'm far from a 'Bron hater, but his performances are being grossly overstated right now.


Mentioning steals/blocks as a good measure of defense?

Image

Ehhhh it's indicative of his effort on that end and I wouldn't blindly ignore it. Likewise wouldn't ignore the Cavs weakish D as a unit (16th overall and falling after tonight), or LBJ not rating in the top 50 in DRPM. Pick your poison? Or better yet, make an argument rather than post a pic? lol.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#558 » by Tigersrule » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:55 am

Triples333 wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:
Triples333 wrote:On his career low steals/blocks for a less than middling Cavs D to this point? Yeah, not a great sell either. I'm far from a 'Bron hater, but his performances are being grossly overstated right now.


Mentioning steals/blocks as a good measure of defense?

Image

Ehhhh it's indicative of his effort on that end and I wouldn't blindly ignore it. Likewise wouldn't ignore the Cavs weakish D as a unit (16th overall and falling after tonight), or LBJ not rating in the top 50 in DRPM. Pick your poison? Or better yet, make an argument rather than post a pic? lol.

I see what youre saying...tbh he just doesnt put much effort in the regular season anymore, but hes making the game look easy right now...hes basically averaging a triple double atm playing at like 70% lol. But if they end up with the most wins in the league, hes most likely gonna win MVP cause thats just how the MVP voting works I guess from the past couple years
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#559 » by ThePersianFreak » Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:16 am

Triples333 wrote:Lol homeboy if you guys are arguing that 'Bron was better than Love last game than we just have different ideas of excellence. K Love had literally one of the top-5 best offensive quarters in NBA history, finished the game with a 170 O rating (to 'Bron's 139), and put up 40/8/3 on an 85% TS and 1 TO. Also played 6 less minutes than 'Bron. He was better. D Lillard was also better than Bron if we're talking the game as a whole (40/7/11 with 2 TO's on ridiculous shooting). He's not superman. And there are many players in the NBA who have had better campaigns than him to this point. It is far from a season for the ages.


So he had a better game scoring wise?! LeBron was the best player in that game and yes we have different ideas of exellence. It helps you see thing clearer when you're not blinded with hatred. Also i never said he's superhuman or is having the best stats this season, i just said it's stupid to argue that he has been the clear cut best player on his team.
And another thing that you're ignoring is the fact that MVP voting isn't just about stats, narrative matters, team success matters. LeBron right now IS a top 2 candidate wether you like it or not.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#560 » by Homer38 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:25 pm

Triples333 wrote:
Tigersrule wrote:
Tigersrule wrote:Ok Triples is definitely a Lebron hater lmao..how in the world was he not the best player on the court? Just cuz K Love dropped 34 points in the first quarter, then went on to drop 6 more the rest of the way? Gtfo with that BS lmao..Bron had a 31 pt triple double that game, and have all 7 assists or 8 in that first quarter setting up Love..

Lets not forget hes also playing better defense that Harden.

On his career low steals/blocks for a less than middling Cavs D to this point? Yeah, not a great sell either. I'm far from a 'Bron hater, but his performances are being grossly overstated right now.

You guys are talking about a guy who isn't top 5 in WS/48/PER/VORP/RPM etc etc (stats he has consistently always owned through his prime) like he's a savant this season. And he's certainly not carrying his team this season to any degree close to some of his years past. It's just not an MVP performance and/or narrative.



The cavs defense is 6th in the league when LeBron is on the court....

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